(The idea to make this was from reading through the Garritan forums).

I decided to put this in the composition forum, as opposed to, the music discussion forum because it relates more to composition.

The basic discussion topic is in the title, obviously.

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I've read that composers, e.g. John Williams, only creates the themes of music that are soon to be orchestrated and inserted in movies. And the orchestrator doesn't get as much credit. :\ So, technically, John Williams has the rank of "Theme(s) Created By:..." I'm not saying that John Williams is a bad composer in any way, I just had to give an example.

In the past (like 200-500 or so years ago -_- ), it used to be that the composer would always orchestrate their pieces. Unfortunately, it's as if orchestration in music is now in the category of "hard labor" now, and people have to hire someone to orchestrate themes.

What are your opinions on this?

I don't have much opinion about this really, since I do realize not all composers are really 'classical' composers. And because they aren't, they are not acquainted to usage of instruments, thus they need orchestrators to finish the job.

Though, I must say that once you give a theme or a melodic line to someone else to render, it will never be 'true' to the composer's idea anymore.

This would all make sense to me. This is one of the most demanding composing jobs out there. The sound track to many motion pictures are not even considered until after the entire production is done. The composer has to take the time to watch the movie, select parts where he believes the music should go, and stick something in there in a ridiculous amount of time. It would only make sense that they would have some kind of lackey to speed up the process so the sound track can make it on time to be release with the film.

i think the only person who can truly and effectively orchestrate their works are the composers themselves.

the reason that only the composer gets credited rather than the orchestrator is because orchestration is essentially just a theory exercise.

the reason that only the composer gets credited rather than the orchestrator is because orchestration is essentially just a theory exercise.

Not really, it actually has more creativity than most people think it has. People always think it's restrained to certain rules, but there are not many actual rules. Orchestration is good as long as the sound in the final product is 'favourable'.

Edit: Btw, orchestration was only used starting in like the mid to late baroque era, thus it's only around 300 years ago.

If I were rich, I'd gladly pay an orchestrator to work side-by-side with me.

I actually tried orchestrating something before (with relatively pleasing results), but it's such a long and tedious process that I rarely even attempt to do it anymore... Like Noir7 above me said, If I had the money I wouldn't mind having an orchestrator to collaborate with. :heh:

But just because you have someone orchestrating it for you doesn't mean you're completely out of control. :think: Think of it like a Director/Actor relationship--you're not controlling why they act, but you can certainly control when, where, how, and what they act.

So maybe it's similar.

Not really, it actually has more creativity than most people think it has.

oh i agree- but its not the same as composing is it? i suppose what i was trying to say is that you can orchestrate someone else's work but it doesnt make it your own.

i wouldnt pay an orchestrator to work alongside me, i would do it myself- when i have the time i would love to experiment with the different sounds of an orchestra.

looking at what Sir Dotdotdot was saying about classical music- you tend to get either amazing orchestrations or terrible ones. and the terrible ones 9 times out of 10 are the ones not done by the composer themself (with the obvious exception of an orchestration i heard of Ravel's Gaspard de la Nuit)

Yes, I do believe that that the orchestration of a piece should only be done by the composer him/herself. But the only exception is that if the orchestrator is a composer of the same style as the other composer and is a master at orchestrating (i.e. Ravel orchestrating Mussorgsky's Picture at the Exhibition), then it may be a little more convincing. However, in modern times, movie orchestrators ignore the 'style' of the original composer, and just tries to fit in with the drama.

Sad--John Williams was one of my favourite composers, but if he doesn't orchestrate his stuff (favourite- Memoirs of a Geisha) then I'm setting my likeness for him really low now. <_<

I agree that orchestrators should be credited for composition; after all, I believe that when a melody and accompaniment are put into an orchestra/ensemble, it sounds a lot different than the original (to me, at least).

Sad--John Williams was one of my favourite composers, but if he doesn't orchestrate his stuff (favourite - Memoirs of a Geisha) then I'm setting my likeness for him really low now. <_<

John Williams is one of my favourites, too, so I looked into it and found this:


A film composer creates a "sketch" score on many staves that includes material for all the parts of the orchestra the composer will be using.

However, John Williams creates these "sketch" scores so that they include so much detail that the orchestrator has very little work left to do. So to say that Williams does not orchestrate his own music is partially false. He simply does not write out the full orchestral score.

So John Williams orchestrates a lot of what you hear in the final product; he just has someone come in later and add things in according to his detailed instructions so he can actually manage to put out multiple scores a year like he has in the past.

Other living film composers that orchestrate their music are Philip Glass and John Corigliano, who are equally good. ;)

Yup, Pihilip Glass is an excellent minimalist! Let's not forget Angelo Badalamenti, I love his scores because they're not as traditional as many others'.

So John Williams orchestrates a lot of what you hear in the final product; he just has someone come in later and add things in according to his detailed instructions so he can actually manage to put out multiple scores a year like he has in the past.

Other living film composers that orchestrate their music are Philip Glass and John Corigliano, who are equally good. ;)

XD That makes sense :heh: . I'd hate to leave one person with harmonizing stuff and a bunch of the counterpoint.

Yeah, we had a similar discussion on YoungComposers forums (which I have stopped posting on because most of the users are way too full of themselves to be helpful), but many people still are misinformed on John Williams, saying that he steals and doesn't fully compose his music (based on the claims about not orchestrating his music and also the fact that he based much of the music from the original Star Wars trilogy on Holst's "The Planets". However, he really only takes the style of the pieces rather than any themes from the pieces).

I'd like to just add to this that I listen only to the Final Fantasy Orchestrations done by Shiro Hamaguchi.

Look/listen around a bit and you'll see a lot of the orchestrating is done by people who rock at orchestrating, but who suck at writing music themself. Someone once told me Orchestrators are there to let the composers make a name for themselves.

I agree though that orchestrators should get a whole lot more credit than they do now.

Someone once told me Orchestrators are there to let the composers make a name for themselves.

Too bad people like Beethoven, Saint-Saens, Rachmaninoff, Copland, Berlioz and (of course!) Ravel were all composers and GREAT Orchestrators as well. . .just goes to show you that a Composer should be just as great as Orchestrating as Composition; after all, I think that Composition is more of a "feeling" while orchestrating is more of a "technical" building-block of music. . .now don't get me wrong, I think that orchestrating takes creativity, as well as composition, it's just that one (as I observe a little) takes a little more technical initiative than the other.

I'd like to just add to this that I listen only to the Final Fantasy Orchestrations done by Shiro Hamaguchi.

That's actually a very good place to start out for people interested in orchestrating... The textures range anywhere from very thin to very thick, but the way they're recorded makes it easy to pick out what's being used in each passage. The orchestrations aren't exactly what I would call "inspired"--most of Hamaguchi's orchestrations for Uematsu are, in my opinion, predictable but appropriate, though there is the very occasional surprise that sends a chill through my body--but it's definitely enjoyable material. :P I highly recommend the FITHOS LUSEC WECOS VINOSEC album; it's all music from Final Fantasy VIII and it's the only full-length album Hamaguchi has done for Uematsu (that I know of).


I agree though that orchestrators should get a whole lot more credit than they do now.

Definitely. :P

You should probobly realize that as a composer for media John Williams has a dead line to meet. So, I can see why he would hire an orchestrater.

Back to what you were originally saying though, I do actually see credit given to orchestraters all the time. There just usually after the composers...

There are always guys working in the background who aren't properly credited, it's just the way it is. I bet no one here knows the name of George Bush's speechwriter, for instance. I hardly think orchestrators will get more recognition in our day and age, on the contrary, I bet it will decline.

Of course they deserve credit to some extent, but they are indeed background people and should therefor be prepared to be recognized as such.

Well, realistically, as long as they get paid well, I guess credit isn't much. I mean, it's just orchestration, not really writing an original piece.