The Piano/Pianists' Discussion Thread~

http://www.amainevent.com/images/pianists.jpg

Discuss, ask, answer, and lecture!

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Why don't I start us off with who's opinion of the best pianist, or at least interpreters of composers?

For me, my idol would have to be Evgeny Kissin when it comes to playing, overall. His technique and unique interpretation of Chopin and Brahms are second to none, really. Although he's a bit of a love-hate kinda guy with the critics, he should get the solid recognition for an (almost) middle-aged Russian vurtuoso, nonetheless, he's critisized for playing Rachmaninoff too fast. XD Oh well, he doesn't rush, so ge really makes up for it then.

Another great is Claudio Arrau. No one can disagree his Liszt is unsurpassed. His Chopin Nocturnes and Debussy Preludes are also very unique how he applies his "heavy" and famous "paw-like" technique.

I dont think ive heard any of Kissin's Chopin, but I agree his Brahms is amazing. Rubinstein's Chopin recordings are some of the best I've heard- especially the Ballades and Scherzi.

Arrau is just a genius; although his recording of the Liszt Dante Sonata isnt one of his best.. bit too broken up for my liking. But his Transcendentals are pretty much the definitive recordings as far as im concerned. I havent heard his Debussy, but his Chopin is nearly up there with his Liszt and Beethoven (how could you not mention his Beethoven?)

Another good interpreter of the Chopin Nocturnes is Maria Joao Pires- particularly the darker and more dramatic ones like the one in C minor (Op 48/1). Definately worth a listen.

What are people's opinion on Argerich? Because unique though she is i dont think she's as great as people make her out to be. A lot of her recordings are played as if she's trying to get world record for the fastest rendition of whatever it is she's playing.

how could you not mention his Beethoven?

Because I've never heard it [yet]. :P


What are people's opinion on Argerich? Because unique though she is i dont think she's as great as people make her out to be. A lot of her recordings are played as if she's trying to get world record for the fastest rendition of whatever it is she's playing.

I think she's actually a pretty good interpreter of the Chopin Polonaise in Ab, but that's about it for interpretation matters. I do agree 100% that she tries to get "The Fastest Playing" of some pieces; and for the reason of playing some passages of the Liszt B minor sonata so quickly, it takes away all the pyrotechnics that Liszt has already composed for us. :cry: Also, her playing of Chopin's 16th prelude is fast, with no emotion, while Kissin's is fast with a lot of emotion.

I quite like her recording of the Liszt Sonata. But to listen to the Chopin Nocturnes of hers I've heard- its like she doesn't actually know what a Nocturne is.

I do love her recording of Gaspard de la Nuit though, but to be fair she's been playing it since she was about 10, at which age she hadnt got a reputation to uphold.

Maybe its because she's a woman? She feels she has to prove that she can play louder and faster than 98% of male pianists?

It might as well be because she's a female trying to be a great in such a male-dominated field (not completely, but the majority).

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I'm soooo excited! I'm starting to save up for my plane ticket/living expenses for next July!! Me and my [new] piano teacher are planning on going to the Conservatory in Prague next year to have master classes with the world's top pianists' for a month!!!!

I soo want this year to go fast. :) :)

the rest of this year isnt allowed to go fast because in the space of it i will get my diploma results, have conservatoire auditions, take grade 8 music theory and find out where ive been accepted (in that order)

but next year can go quickly because i want to be in a conservatoire now damit =P

the Prague trip sounds amazing =] masterclasses are so useful- you'll get a lot out of them. and to have to travel to go to one is a bonus =D

there was a piano competition in Japan last month i wanted to enter- you just had to pay flights and they gave you free accomodation and everything; but i just didnt have the money =[

Now, this doesn't quite relate to what you guys where talking about, but...
Lang Lang, what do you think? I really, really hate the way he interprets songs, especially one of my favourite songs, Mendelssohn's Rondo Capriccioso. I'd even say he utterly failed to understand it.

He plays with the tempo too damn much, imo. He'll play a fast spot faster than musical, then slow it WAAAYY down when it's a slower section. . .Liszt's Hungarian Rhapsody No. 2, for example, he murdered. x_x

Plus he needs to learn how to not look *distracting*. XD

He plays with the tempo too damn much, imo. He'll play a fast spot faster than musical, then slow it WAAAYY down when it's a slower section. . .Liszt's Hungarian Rhapsody No. 2, for example, he murdered. x_x

Plus he needs to learn how to not look *distracting*. XD
Yeah. I suppose it looks "virtuosic". XD
... I heard his (mis)interpretatiom of Liszt's Hungarian Rhapsodx No. 2 (another one of my favourite songs), it's a good example for how you DON'T play it. :heh:

Is it Lang Lang or Yundi Li who plays every note as if it is giving him extreme sexual pleasure? Actually its both of them isnt it?

I've read how Liszt used to play the piano like it was an extension of his body, but I think those pair have misinterpreted it a little x_x

Is it Lang Lang or Yundi Li who plays every note as if it is giving him extreme sexual pleasure? Actually its both of them isnt it?

I've read how Liszt used to play the piano like it was an extension of his body, but I think those pair have misinterpreted it a little x_x

It's both of them, but Lang Lang is much worse. ._.

Yeah, I can agree that Yundi Li gets a little "agonizing" when he plays, but the product (what you hear) is 100x better than Lang Lang's playing. :heh:

Has anyone else (as in, besides me) wondered why the Rachmaninoff Piano Concerto No. 4 is so un-melodic? I mean, sure there's some themes, but the three concertos before seemed to be so much more luchious (sp?) than his last concerto. . .he makes the piano play a lot of support-esqe chords often. :think:

i always found the 4th concerto a bit of an anti-climax after the first 3- its like in the first three there is a steady progression to the masterpiece that is the 3rd concerto- and then you get the 4th that is just there.

ive wondered why this is too- my thoughts are that maybe Rachmaninoff knew that there was nothing he could do to top the 3rd concerto, so he thought he would just try something completely different with the 4th?

I just listened to Liszt's Hungarian Rhapsody No. 12 performed by Jorge Bolet, it made me realise just how good Jorge Bolet is... he's my favourite pianist now. What do you think about him? :)

the only recordings of his i have are the Transcendental Etudes- they are better than average but very much under tempo. not that speed is everything though (well, in Liszt Etudes you could argue differently to be fair)

A more recent piano composer I've began to grow very fond of is Rachel Portman. She's done a few film scores here and there, but her piano compositions are just wonderful. I've always been one for more expressive pieces, and that is exactly the style in which all of Portman's pieces are written.

Luuucky me!

I might be getting a (great condition) used Steinway Piano from the Steinway Gallery about 25 mins. from where I live. It's a piano that's, basically, just been sitting there forever and won't be sold.

It's about a 6 ft. mahogany (?) grand; pretty nice sound, and the touch is great too. ^_^

*is incredibly jealous*

Lang Lang is kind of fake in my opinion O_o; Watching him makes me feel seasick. (No offense to anyone who likes him -- this is just my own thought.)

Luuucky me!

I might be getting a (great condition) used Steinway Piano from the Steinway Gallery about 25 mins. from where I live. It's a piano that's, basically, just been sitting there forever and won't be sold.

It's about a 6 ft. mahogany (?) grand; pretty nice sound, and the touch is great too. ^_^

:torch: I'm stealing that. You just watch.

How the heck do you get all these freaking hookups? Are you loaded or something?

Since my primary instrument isn't Piano, I might as well ask this here:

Is it rare to be attending a high school that has a Steinway piano? :think: Just wondering, since there happens to be one at the high school that I'm attending, and this school... isn't that great. xp

EDIT: Never mind. Dumb question. :heh:

How the heck do you get all these freaking hookups? Are you loaded or something?

Exactly the opposite of "loaded." That's why I'm getting so many things for no costs.

We're paying in "me." (If you understand).

I dont think ive heard any of Kissin's Chopin

AHH AHH IM DIEING AGG!!!!

really now, your missing out.

Martha Algritch ftwftw though.

I haven't played the piano for four months because we haven't had time to move it, and I'm dieing right now. I really haven't felt this low before.

:torch: I'm stealing that. You just watch.

How the heck do you get all these freaking hookups? Are you loaded or something?

Sorry, Maz, I just read that again and it's really rude. x_x

But really, I'm jealous.

Since my primary instrument isn't Piano, I might as well ask this here:

Is it rare to be attending a high school that has a Steinway piano? :think: Just wondering, since there happens to be one at the high school that I'm attending, and this school... isn't that great. xp

EDIT: Never mind. Dumb question. :heh:

hahaha lucky you...yes i'm going to reply to this anyway...my high school isn't that great...and they deffinately don't have a Steinway piano the best my school can get is Yamaha :heh:
so yeah...that must be sort of rare...well it is from my point of view anyway

I am so happy! I finally got a new piano. It's a baby-grand Kawai, which I don't know if that is a good brand or not, but I love it so much!! :drool:

hmmm I like Kawai it is a pretty decent brand i reckon, you are very lucky

Good deals yes. I'm actually getting an Alesis Fusion 8HD synth workstation. 88 fully weighted keys, built-grand piano, and an overall worstation comparable to the Korg Triton...700 bucks. Makes me happy I found this synth, considering it was $2800 when it first came out.

As for composition interpreters, I'd advise you all to check out Christopher O'Riley, with his Radiohead and Elliot Smith piano transcriptions...just amazing.

The conservatory of music where I am, they have lots of stainway and son and balwins pianos and some yamahas I don't know if they have another brands there :O

One Week before a concerto I was going to play, I used like 15 different pianos in the conservatory, ppl had me moving from classroom to classroom xD

One Week before a concerto I was going to play, I used like 15 different pianos in the conservatory, ppl had me moving from classroom to classroom xD

They didn't let you get used to the piano that you were to play the concerto on? If they didn't, that's very stupid of them.

Haha you know, the 2 times I played in a concerto there, was the only times I touched that piano, I never practiced on that one, my teacher told me the day of the concertos to practice there if no one in the hall, but there were ppl already practicing (a rock group and others). But anyway that piano is not a problem for me , I feel very comfortable with that one and a cute sound ^.^

Could I ask what concerto/s you played? (Curious.) :)

Was a concerto general, was not precisally a piano concerto haha, There were other ppl playing too and the rock group (All of them ppl that study in the conservatory) I don't remember what I played the first time there lol, but the second time I played arranges for piano of Operas. There will be another one this year, I dunno when but I hope to participate. What will I play? I still don't know if I participate, I have wished to write something for play in public together with other pieces. Latelly I was playing a lot the moonlight sonata again and other opera things xD

Is there an age limit for the amateur Van Cliburn competition? I'm seriously considering that within the next one or two years if at all possible.

"Applicants must have been born after June 7, 1978, and before May 22, 1991."

http://www.cliburn.org/index.php?page=application_rules <-- Rules

http://www.cliburn.org/ <--Main Page

Sling change of subject. . .

It's the most cliche topic among pianists, but does anyone think the Rach 3 is the hardest piece for the piano? Now, I have not played it, so I cannot have an educated opinion. . .I'm a little partial for it's title of the most difficult piece. There are many other pieces out there that are very difficult. . .which also brings me to, "can there be an acclaimed 'most diffucilt' piece for the piano?"

lol people who think Rach 3 is the hardest piece havent attempted Alkan Etudes =P

im going to a concert in which this piece is being played at the end of January *is excited*

anywhoo i think it is the hardest piece that actually has a place in concert repertoire, yes. because stuff like Alkan, Xenakis, Sorabji etc... isnt everyone's cup of tea; i mean yes id go to an Alkan concert but i dont like the latter two.

i dabble in and out of Rach 3, and dont actually find it that hard to play. to perform it on the other hand is another story.

going on a tangent, its like a friend said to me yesterday "i went to see Saw 4 the other night and it was disgusting. anyone that has the nerve and a film degree can create something like that- something that makes people feel sick or think yuck or wow- awesome effects, this film is ace, but it takes a true film maker to make a film that has you leaving the cinema with a lump in your throat because you have been touched by it"

the same applies to music- anyone whose at an advanced level and willing to put the work in can learn Rach 3, Liszt Feux Follets, Ravel Scarbo... but how many performances of Rach 3 leave you wishing the piece lasted for another 40 mins after the amazing ending? how many Feux Follets actually sound like ghost lights flickering in the wind (on the contrary most of them sound like the wind is on fire- playing it ff when its mostly in pp), and in Scarbo- the poem specifically describes the psychological games he uses to strike fear into the poet; how many performances of Scarbo have you heard that sound more like he is chasing the poet around with a knife?

i still stick to my claim that the most difficult piece in standard repertoire is Le Gibet from Gaspard de la Nuit

also for the Piano Arts thing- if the post 1940 piece didnt have to be composed by an American i would have suggested playing something by Bax- ive recently discovered his works and they are really something

I'd like to bump this WAY up since the load of piano questions that keep popping up. =P

Has anyone ever been in or at the Piano Texas festival at TCU?

Personally i think Scott Joplin was good at making 'happy' and 'bouncy' pieces, especially his most famous The Entertainer, which is fun to play and of course has an Easy->Hard range of pieces to play.

Yoko Shimomura for his amazing ability to compose extremely good music to suit the mood like his Tension Rising from Kingdom Hearts 2. Even though i suppose alot of Japanese people are game music composers, he's one that just glows more than the others :shifty:.

I like Beethoven for lots of his work, but Turkish March is what i like the most from his range of compositions i think, it's fast paced, but easy to follow and has a nice sound to it.

I'd have to say that the person i look up to for playing the piano is Rimsky-Korsakov for his Flight of the Bumblebee :).

It's difficult (heavily depends on which arrangement you're playing) but I think Ravel, Liszt, Rachmaninoff and Chopin take the cake for the hardest pieces. Possibly some others, but generally those four.

EDIT : Oh, and I got back from my first piano competition today, and I placed 5th. I have to say that the judges were horrible--and that's not counting having to play under a metal-roofed stage right when a thunderstorm came POURING and RUMBLING--I played the nocturne (see signature) and I couldn't even hear myself. I played it flawlessly (and it's my best piece in my repitoire) and people who were technically good, but with no heart, took ahead of me--and one girl, who I thought should have gotten 1st/2nd, didn't even place.

This proves that I will NEVER enter a competition again--judging is absolutely daft.

I found this in a site if anyone interested:

Finger Positions

Relax the fingers and place your hand on a flat surface with all the fingertips resting on the surface and the wrist at the same height as the knuckles. The hand and fingers should form a dome. All the fingers should be curved. The thumb should point slightly down and bend slightly towards the fingers so that the last (nail) phalange of the thumb is parallel to the other fingers. This slight inward bend of the thumb is useful when playing chords with wide spans. It positions the tip of the thumb parallel to the keys making it less likely to hit adjacent keys. It also orients the thumb so that the correct muscles are used to raise and lower it. The fingers are slightly curled, curving down and meeting the surface at angles near 45 degrees. This curled configuration allows the fingers to play between the black keys. The tip of the thumb and the other fingertips should form an approximate semicircle on the flat surface. If you do this with both hands side by side, the two thumbnails should be facing each other. Use the part of the thumb directly below the thumbnails to play, not the joint between the nail phalange and the middle phalange. The thumb is already too short; therefore, play with its tip for maximum uniformity with all the fingers. For the other fingers, the bone comes close to the skin at the fingertips. At the front pad of the fingertip (opposite the fingernail), the flesh is thicker. This front pad should contact the keys, not the fingertip.

This is just a starting position. Once you begin play, these rules immediately go out the window: you may need to stretch the fingers almost straight, or curl them more, depending on what you are playing. Therefore, although the beginner must learn the ideal curled position, strict adherence to a fixed curled configuration is not correct.

Nyu, i don't think there is any specific finger position to play in, i play with my fingers where it's comfortable to play, not where my teacher or any rule says is 'the right way'.

I must say, I have never been all that impressed with the Steinways I've played on (although it's been the fault of the people who are supposed to maintain them rather than Steinway's fault :P). At the piano camp I went to last summer, they had three on the college campus, one of which was in great condition. Naturally, we were not allowed near that one, and had to play on the other two for lessons and performances. Both had pedal issues and the performance one had several keys that double-struck their strings! These of course are the fault of the stupid college for not maintaining their $50,000+ pianos.

The only other time I've played on a Steinway was at a showroom and keys kept sticking. I'm just jealous because I have yet to play on a Steinway in prime condition :cry:. I have played on some very nice Bostons and Kawais, though.

Oh, and I got back from my first piano competition today, and I placed 5th. I have to say that the judges were horrible--and that's not counting having to play under a metal-roofed stage right when a thunderstorm came POURING and RUMBLING--I played the nocturne (see signature) and I couldn't even hear myself. I played it flawlessly (and it's my best piece in my repitoire) and people who were technically good, but with no heart, took ahead of me--and one girl, who I thought should have gotten 1st/2nd, didn't even place.

This proves that I will NEVER enter a competition again--judging is absolutely daft.

with competitions its all about who you know. the ones who came first probably knew someone who knew the judges or came from a school/college/whatever that gives the competition a lot of money.

last competition i was in was full of entrants from a particular conservatoire and they all got trophies (there were individual classes rather than it being one big competition). and it was all rigged and you could tell the judges made it up as they went along.

for example, i got a comment that although i gave an imaginative performance of one piece there were a few slips which meant i lost marks. but then when a similar standard performance took place later on in the competition (person from the conservatoire giving them money) they gave the exact same comment and he won first place.

so anyway, dont let it get you down or put you off- its the experience that counts and you probably did play better than all of them but just didnt rank higher because you played fairly. and tbh equally when we're both in conservatoire there may be competitions we'll enter and win because our teachers there know a judge or something.

its the way the music industry works- its not what you know its who you know. you could be the next Liszt but not make it just because you're not in the right place at the right time you know?

with competitions its all about who you know. the ones who came first probably knew someone who knew the judges or came from a school/college/whatever that gives the competition a lot of money.

last competition i was in was full of entrants from a particular conservatoire and they all got trophies (there were individual classes rather than it being one big competition). and it was all rigged and you could tell the judges made it up as they went along.

for example, i got a comment that although i gave an imaginative performance of one piece there were a few slips which meant i lost marks. but then when a similar standard performance took place later on in the competition (person from the conservatoire giving them money) they gave the exact same comment and he won first place.

so anyway, dont let it get you down or put you off- its the experience that counts and you probably did play better than all of them but just didnt rank higher because you played fairly. and tbh equally when we're both in conservatoire there may be competitions we'll enter and win because our teachers there know a judge or something.

its the way the music industry works- its not what you know its who you know. you could be the next Liszt but not make it just because you're not in the right place at the right time you know?

:think: Why don't they just make judges face the wall and LISTEN and allow the competitors to be anonymous?

Isn't it obvious? Not looking at the performer would look odd.

One of the things that you're judged on (anyway) is performance/presentation, which would include looking nice and all that, etc.

Yep, that's why most of the 'better' pianists make themselves look mad or they overdo it and be really dramatic about pressing the keys.

lol yes.

i dont get the whole dramatic key pressing shite. you cant put 100% of your effort and attention into the piece if you are flailing about like a crack head.

none of the true masters ive seen videos of have/had any of that crap going on.

lol yes.

i dont get the whole dramatic key pressing shite. you cant put 100% of your effort and attention into the piece if you are flailing about like a crack head.

none of the true masters ive seen videos of have/had any of that crap going on.

It's funny, whenever one of the three finalists (well the first actually really messed up the most.. Asians, of course) messed up, they would always have this strenuous look on their face telling the audience, "That part is very difficult, so that's why I messed up." Or, in general, you can tell if someone is really nervous, and they screw up, that they tend to get very emotional and throw the piece down the drain, because they cannot cope with a mistake or two. I, myself, enjoy making some "lib." expressions here and there, but I do it to get into a character. I'm sure some of you know that pieces require an "overall" color (such as a Chopin Nocturne) and then in that character/color there are different scenes which the mood might change a little bit. I do this solely because it helps me create what I want and "know" it should sound like, not to give the audience some impression that this is hard or whatever.. In the last movement of the Chopin Second Sonata, the feeling is of a cold and bitter wind. My teacher, and his wife, went to a Vladimir Ashkenazy concert--where he played the sonata--and his wife had said, "I felt chills down my spine, and goosebumps on my skin." And I don't think Ashkenazy is a Lang-Lang when it comes to.. "facial/bodily expressionism."

Isn't it obvious? Not looking at the performer would look odd.

One of the things that you're judged on (anyway) is performance/presentation, which would include looking nice and all that, etc.

Not necessarily. Some competitions I've participated in (namely All-State Band auditions) have the judges behind a curtain while you play, and all they know about you is an audition letter. It certainly makes things a lot fairer in that respect.

but surely in the letters it says where the entrant is from?

there is still plenty of space for bias

No. All they see is a letter. Literally A to about X. They don't see names or schools until after judging is over.

Greetings all from the Czech Republic. I arrived here {IMA-Pilsen} on Sunday and have been doing a bunch of music learning including masters such as Ivan Moravec. I've been chosen, along with some fellow pianists, to play in an informal concert tomorrow night. I had a lesson with Miroslav Brechja (sp?) and has given me some crucial guidance on technique, which was geared towards musicality in the end.

Anyway! I guess I'll keep ya'll informed, fellow Ichigoians.

EDIT: Sorry for some reason a much older page was showing up.

but surely in the letters it says where the entrant is from?

there is still plenty of space for bias

Usually, they just know the performer's "number" (e.g. entrant#14) and nothing else.All in all, it really depends on the competition and what they are grading on.

To open this for discussion, I have been thinking about this for quite a while: Piano Exercises.

1) I know there's the infamous Hannon Virtuoso Pianist and the Czerny, but are these very crucial? 2) If they are, how should they be practiced and for which extent. 3) As in, what age should you start/stop working on them, or does it depend on something else? 4) I've heard of tricks-of-the-trade exercises such as the 'simple' arpeggios and scales or even repeated notes. It seems to me that you could choose any Czerny book or early exercise book and you'd get the same things. 5a) Does simple repetition over and over create a good independence, or does very complex patterns/exercises which would need to be practiced slowly and taken close care do better? 5b) Once again, does age/stage matter? 6) Should people take more care in practicing technique, or just work on it as it comes; for example, just get down the passages in the pieces your playing?

I myself am not asking for help in these questions, but just bringing something interesting up. I could list many others that I've been looking into, but I think we should start on these basic ones first.

I start my piano practise on Hannon's and Czerny books, exactly just as you said >_<,,

*Revive*

Wow, it's been a few years. I just want to urge every pianist/ piano player to practice these:

Major/harmonic minor scales (4 octaves...16th notes)
Major/minor arpeggios (4 octaves...triplets)
Dominant 7th arpeggios (4 octaves...16th notes)
Diminished 7th arpeggios (4 octaves...16th notes)

Need help with fingerings? Ask, I'm thinking of making a chart, or just copying my professors chart.

Hahahaha, I was reading your post then I jumped to this.

Hey, Mazeppa,

I have the major and minor (btw, are the three minor scale fingerings the same for each scale?) scales and arpeggio fingerings for the basic triads, but I don't have any 7th fingerings. Keep me posted! Thanks!

*Revive*

Wow, it's been a few years. I just want to urge every pianist/ piano player to practice these:

Major/harmonic minor scales (4 octaves...16th notes)
Major/minor arpeggios (4 octaves...triplets)
Dominant 7th arpeggios (4 octaves...16th notes)
Diminished 7th arpeggios (4 octaves...16th notes)

Need help with fingerings? Ask, I'm thinking of making a chart, or just copying my professors chart.

My teacher insists on melodic minor over harmonic, but otherwise I'm having to do the same- been told I have work them all up to 144 bpm.

Also been told to spend an hour a day doing the Dohnányi exercises *slits wrists*

Heres something for discussion: technical exercises vs working on difficulties in the context of the piece.

In thinking about this, I've been thinking both are as good/bad as each other. If you do technical exercises religiously, you go into robot mode and yes it strengthens your fingers but you start to lose concentration with what you are actually doing. Also, I think it is difficult to actually apply them to what you are playing- you get so automatic with them that if similar figurations come up in a piece you don't think "ah, that's from this exercise".

So what about working in the context of the piece. I think if you do it effectively, this can arguably be the better way. Especially with the numerous Cortot editions I have collected where methods of working around difficulties are spelled out and brief exercises are given to overcome them. Also the purpose of doing the exercises is more direct- i.e. I do these exercises, now I can play these bars better. However, there's the same problem as above- it's difficult to apply them to other things you play and again if similar things come up you don't think "that's similar to this piece" (though to be fair Cortot does a LOT of cross referencing probably a ploy to get people to buy more of his editions, but it's still pointful).

I think ultimately, both depend a hell of a lot on muscle memory- your fingers remembering what to do in various situations. In which case perhaps technical exercises are more productive?

That brings up an observation I have about alot of pianists: They can recite pieces, but they can't play Piano as an art. They can trace pictures, but they can't just sit down in front of an empty canvas and paint their own pieces. They're basically musical historians who aren't capable of adding anything new.

Sounds kind of harsh, but that's how they end up. Almost every pianist I know end up either becoming hobbyists who recite sheet music, or end up being piano teachers. Which is fine. Not everyone wants to be artists.

Both technical exercises and piece-specific practices help your hands learn technical forms. Scales and chords, plowing through specific parts of pieces and figuring them out.
But what I've found to make the most difference in expanding your skills, is discovering fingerings chords or patterns that you've never come across before, and allowing your body to internalize that new engram, by practicing that specific spot in the piece, and applying that to other situations, or just riff on that new pattern and see what you can do with it. The idea is to build up enough ammo so that you can sit down in front of a piano and play anything, in any way. Eyes-closed, if possible.

At a certain point, 144 bpm exercises just doesn't cut it anymore.

If I were to say to you, play something that starts in d minor, kind of slow, mellow theme, with an elaborate solo and satisfying harmony that shifts keys, can you do it?

It comes down to that. If that kind of thing isn't your focus and you just want to play the most technically difficult pieces written by other people, yeah rigorous exercises and plowing through specific parts of pieces help you do that. But if those technical skills don't spill over to allow musical creativity... that's the choice the pianist makes. Ultimately it comes down to your goals.

Personally when I'm learning sheet music, I don't think much about it. Playing from sheet music is a pretty mathematical task. You just do exercises that are relevant, and go through the piece in parts.

Not going to quote such a long post, but the first part I totally agree with. I watched an interview with Rubinstein where he talked about pianists sitting down in recitals/masterclasses and the "oh I know this" effect that happens when they prepare to play which sends them into auto pilot. I think in his teaching he tried as hard as he could to teach pianists to bring something fresh to the performance each time, but that's something you can't teach and I very much doubt something even he himself achieved in public performance because you go into regurgitate mode.

In terms of 144 bpm and technical exercises- to me that results in your Lang Langs and your Lisitsas who I just cannot stand to listen to. It is very much, as you say, a mathematical task. Even the act of composition can be a little "su-dokuish".

I have played pieces of ridiculous technical difficulty, both well and abysmally- in front of an audience. But one thing I'd like to think I can do is play those pieces differently every time- even if part of that is pure uncertainty that all the notes are going to be in place. I used to pride myself on that and embrace my admittedly terrible technique. But then there's the question of am I then making a mockery of music the composer has painstakingly put together.

Lastly coming onto the play something in d minor point you brought up- i.e. improvisation. I would argue that this again is pure mathematics of a different kind- rather than getting notes in the "right" order, you are doing an on the spot su-doku exercise with harmonies. It again has something automatic about it- it's just a case of experimenting with chord progressions to set different moods then transposing them into different keys. I think soloing is very much an acquired skill on the other hand- it takes genuine musicianship to come up with a melody on the spot to captivate the interest of an audience and allow them to relax thinking that you're knowing where you're going with it.

There isn't really a point to this post, just observations.

I would just say there's a difference between playing correctly and playing from the heart.
Obviously for classical pieces the audience has a conception of what the "correct" way to play is, which for the pianist it becomes like a problem that has to be solved. You can still play from the heart if classical music is your passion, as it might be for somebody like Lang Lang - you just have alot of constraints to deal with. Personally, it doesn't do it for me.

There are some technicalities in improvisation and composition, but it sure as hell gives alot more room for an artist to play from their heart. Even a piano virtuoso reciting a historic masterpiece may not be able to move people's hearts as artfully as a novice artist playing from the depth of their soul. At least for me, that's the value of music.

Although every now and then, I'll do some Moonlight Sonata 3rd movement just for the hell of it.

It's interesting you mention the Moonlight Sonata- that is definitely a piece where everyone has a conception of the "correct" way to play. I play a lot of contemporary repertoire which has less of that because audiences just don't know what they're hearing. Example, the last piano competition I entered (which I'm never doing again competitions defeat all point of music) I played the Szymanowski Metopes and won. I didn't play them half as well as one entrant played the Fantasie Impromptu and first movement of the Appassionata (he was brilliant), but the judges had a preconception of how those pieces should be played so were subconsciously more critical of him than they were of me.

The value of music is the same for me as it is for you; self expression. Yes you can play other people's music; it's no different to quoting other people in conversation perhaps if the quote says what you want to say in a more eloquent/effective manner. But you still need your own words or there's no conversation.

I think playing the music of others is very much similar to language. Learning a language from textbook/courses gives you a good grasp of the mechanisms and a reasonable vocabulary, but put it into practise in the country and you struggle and need time to get used to using the language in context. That is how I feel about technical exercises/technique in general.

Hm. There's a lot of points brought up and claims made that I agree with, as well as strongly disagree with. So... I'm not going to quote everything and rather give some of my thoughts and observations.

I believe a lot of what Kandinsky has to say about artists. We must not repeatedly show representations, and we should depart with the styles of the past. We must keep moving forward. Yet...you could say that pianists playing "Classical" pieces, or a piece written by a composer other than oneself, or just doing something rather that improvise as not an art. It's all how you look at it. The art of music is something that has been discussed and studied for years, especially when it comes to performing and studying repertoire and literature from the past... there are so many splits with theories and philosophies that making claims (at least for me) are almost useless ("almost..."). Some people think you should perform music as it was performed in the time it was written, and some people try to completely skew it and change it -- making it an almost entirely different piece.

For me, when it comes to being in music, you have to be specific with the terms in which you are using, or who/what you're talking about. A pianist is just a pianist. Someone who (hopefully proficiently) plays the piano. So when we talk about pianists and technique, it's just that. It's for technical proficiency. The next level above that would be a musician -- who could play any instrument or sing, but still be a musician. A musician is a person who goes above recreating the notes and instructions on the page, and takes them to heart. They study the sound and take it in, shaping musical phrases, etc. On the highest level there are the artists. Being an artist is something that you can't necessarily study or teach to people. It is even hard to truly define what an artist is. The line is so fine between artist and musician, but the gap in numbers of how many musicians to artists is incredible large. To try and sum up an artist would be attempted as such: Someone who moves the spirit. This doesn't mean they have to create something new, or that they have to improvise, or that an artist can't play music exactly how it was intended by it's original writer.

So, when we talk about the pianist's or musician's or what-have-you's "problems" it just seems incredibly hard for me to wrap my head around. And I've even found a little flaw in my own observation... the number of musicians to artists -- or even further, the number of instrumentalists to artists. How can we possibly define what "art" actually is? We can try, and I've tried myself, but it comes to no avail. Some people are truly moved by the technical complexity of how a pianist plays, and some stand in awe with how complex and well-fitting harmonies are when Keith Jarrett improvises for over an hour on stage, by himself. It's all completely undefined.

I don't want to say that talking about this is pointless -- it's obvious that each of us have an interest in trying to find an answer. I guess what I'm trying to get across is that we cannot truly 100% define what an artist is... let alone how to define how to play the piano as an artist, etc.

(This is just me thinking out loud. So, you might want to not take this all with great substance, heh).

EDIT: And maybe when it comes to music and pianists I don't completely agree with Kandinsky. x)

EDIT2: And I'll post a scale/arp chart when I get home (when I'm done with exams tomorrow and I move back in)

To be honest, I think the second you try and analyse art is the second it is no longer art.

I think the real sense of art is what you don't know/think about etc. Hearing music or seeing a painting for the first time, noticing something new in art. Example, I was listening to a recording of La Mer (Debussy) this afternoon- I have heard it a billion times yet never studied the score so I know it purely from a listening perspective. I heard music in this recording that I had never heard before, that I didn't think existed because all the other conductors I've heard ignore it placing more emphasis on melody/motifs and the like. That, to me, is the sense of having truly experienced art. To the performers it is not art because they are playing the thing and the conductor has analysed the score and decided to bring these details out. But to a listener, these little things that have never been heard before are what art is.

It is for this exact reason why we can't define what art is- it lies in the unknown.

Edit: just realised that maybe what I'm saying is that artists can't experience the art they create. I think I will go with that- it's the experience not the creation

I suppose people who enjoy simple lives are satisfied with being simple musicians, although I would love it if piano students had easier access to compositional materials. Because most teachers only know exercises and classical pieces, that's all most students know.

But I'm more than certain that students will enjoy piano alot more if they are given an invitation to enter the world of musical creativity.

I agree. But there are different levels of teacher.

The teachers most people have are literally just there to get them through exams. Grade 8 piano over here, for example, is a Bach Prelude/Fugue or Scarlatti Sonata, the first movement of a Classical Sonata and a Romantic/20th century piece. I could be here literally a whole hour talking about the flaws of this, particularly the last piece, but back to my point, teachers only know how to work students up to this goal.

The teachers at a higher level are difficult to pin down as easily as the above type, but generally speaking I would count them as those who live off performing/accompanying/teaching, those who teach at a specialist music institution and obviously concert pianists.

At any level, a teacher can't introduce you to music they don't know but at the higher levels I would say they are better equipped to deal with unknown pieces of music. It is down to the student to find new music and develop their own tastes, but the teacher should be encouraging that- one of my teachers actually shouted at me once for bringing "non-standard" pieces to lesson because she wanted me to do some Haydn *slits wrists*

I'm lucky because I did a "non-standard" music degree where the history units began with Debussy and ended with living composers of all genres both classical and popular. My teacher was also a concert pianist in the area of contemporary music; interested in continuing the evolution of the piano- she taught me to play the inside of the piano (the strings) which creates some beautiful sounds.

Basically I have never been forced into any box, which is as it should be. I'm not afraid to say that although the craftmanship in Bach and Beethoven is ingenious, little of their music moves me. Equally I'm not afraid to say that a lot of contemporary music is more shock factor than music and that all 4'33'' proves to me is how far the idea of ownership has gone since pre-20th century times where plagiarism was the done thing. If you sit in silence for 4 minutes 33 seconds is that the equivalent of illegal downloading because you haven't paid for it?

I highly agree with Thorn.

You can't just introduce a new or young student to the likes of Ligeti, etc. And most teachers outside a conservatory setting teach piano on a "basic level." They guide you through learning the instrument-- increasing your technique, and helping you develop the skills to learn music, all the while helping them develop their musicality.

When you get inside a conservatory/ music school setting it's completely different. When you go for a music degree, you're studying music... as it is a career path, in which you are becoming a musician, as well as having to learn many diverse things. Everything from different piano literature, to theory and developing your aural skills and sight singing... learning other instruments (organ, harpsichord, etc.) and playing music from the Renaissance, through the Classical and Romantic periods, all the way up to jazz and contemporary music. Let's not forget accompanying, and the different types of accompanying, etc. etc. the list goes on and on and on and on

You really know what setting you're talking about. Every teacher can't just teach every student everything. It's a gradual process, and it really does depend a lot on the student as well -- what are their goals and interests... and if they're so hell bent on knowing about "other" music they damn well be either asking for that or searching out on there own and not expecting that someone is just going to "show" them it. :)

I'd really like some suggestions from people.

Here's my piano background: I've played piano for a little more than a year (1 year, + about three months). I have (completely) played the following pieces:

Past repertoire:

Ravel, Prelude (the really short one, not from the Le Tombeau de Couperin)
Chopin, Prelude in c minor, Op. 28 #20
Scarlatti, Sonata in G major, L. 28
Persichetti, Arabesque #1 from Four Arabesques
Debussy, "Canope" from Preludes, Book II

Current repertoire:

Miaskowsky, Fugue No. 1 from Op. 43
Chopin, Mazurka in Bb Major, Op. 7 #1
Bach, Prelude #1 in C Major from Five Little Preludes, BWV 939 (also transposed by sight to F major, Bb major, Eb major, and any other keys I can finish before the semester ends)
Satie, ??? (my professor told me that he'll choose something by Satie, doesn't know yet)

Technique Routines:

Last semester: all melodic minor scales, and major scales (four octaves)
This semester: chord progression- I, I+, vi(6), IV(6/4), iv(6/4), bVI(6), i, i° starting from C and going down the chromatic scale in parallel and contrary motion (no specific fingerings)

Since the second half of this semester, I've been progressing quickly because of a new practice method that I implemented for the Mazurka that I am playing (i.e. more metronome practice). My professor told me that he would like for me to learn another Mazurka from Op. 7 (by the end of the semester, if possible). It took me about a week of serious practice to learn the Mazurka that I am now playing about 75% well (the rest that I'm missing is the musicality, and a few technical issues here and there).

My main question: is there anything that I can play/sightread to around this level that would be suitable for me (i.e. difficult but not too difficult)? Also, what exercises would be suitable for me at this level? (I have a TON of Czerny books laying around because I really couldn't play them last year - I'm considering opening them up.) I grabbed Chopin's c# minor waltz just yesterday (Op. 64 No. 2), and I'll probably start looking over it next Monday.

And as a side note: I am not using whatever advice I get here as a substitute for my professor's advice - I would just like to do some exploration for a while.

Bartok- Sonatina

Chopin- Mazurkas: op.7/2, op.63/2
Preludes: any slow/medium tempo ones
Waltzes: op. 69/1, op. 70/2

Debussy- Preludes bk 1 nr 1,6,8
Preludes bk 2 nr 2,5,9
Children's Corner (even the more difficult ones would be manageable if you put the work in)

Liszt- Any of the Consolations

Ravel- Any of the Valses nobles et sentimentales or possibly one of the Minuets (Sonatine/Tombeau)

Scriabin- Preludes: same as what I said with Chopin really

Obviously I don't know your exact level having never heard you play, but looking at the kind of pieces you've been playing you would be able to manage these (some being more of a challenge than others but maybe you'd like the push).

What are your goals as a pianist? Your dream level?

This guy exemplifies my dream. I would give up alot to have his skills.
42DQrQDEWCg
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Here's some videos of my heroes:

Keith Jarrett:




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPqK1JJOFxw


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHx1XJsVPHE

"The Good America" from The Carnegie Hall Recital (http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNzc0ODQ1NTY=.html)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qkss8jckwBY&feature=player_embedded



Claudio Arrau:




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dR4qwCay5J8


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODKH0rna5ys


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nh2dxjKMIaQ
(unfortunately this clip is in the middle of the second movement...)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0Hyq4Xc7Q8



Glenn Gould:




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWOQVPtIo_E


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cELMIRPiZw


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LI0jUX4g6no


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7LWANJFHEs



There are many more... but those are generally my top three most influential pianists/musicians on me.

Too many to name.

These three Polish Pianists have been really inspiring. I would not like to "be" them or have their exact skills, because that would take away their magic of standing apart from anyone else. Zimerman and Rubinstein have probably inspired me more through interviews of theirs I have watched than their actual playing. I share much with both of them in terms of my relationship with music.

Anderszewski was the first pianist I ever heard playing Szymanowski, who is now one of my favourite composers. There was a video of him at the Roque d'Anthéron playing the Metopes and everything about his playing, from the music itself to his behaviour at the piano and his technique was beautiful. I am really upset that the video is now nowhere to be found, but luckily an audio recording of his Szymanowski is on youtube.

Krystian Zimerman


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_PBTGfhWD8

Artur Rubinstein


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2Cgr0eZ0rk

Piotr Anderszewski


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNibxzSwZEg

Hey, question for you guys - I was practicing piano today, and two people noticed something about my playing - my pinky on my RH is tense and usually curls up when I'm not using it. It's interesting. (I didn't even notice it until my friend mentioned it today - I didn't notice the tension until I played with my eyes closed.) I'm speculating that it's a result of years of clarinet playing, and I'm wondering if it could honestly lead to some problems, as my professor next semester will be giving me much harder repertoire than what I've ben used to.

Any tips?

My finger does that! Also I played the flute for almost 10 years before beginning piano.

It's never caused me any problems- saying that it's a weird situation. It curls up out of habit (perhaps?), but it is not tense because I have developed my piano technique along the way. All I can really say is that it shouldn't be hindering, and that the tension at least will go away as you develop your technique.

... and that the tension at least will go away as you develop your technique.

Agreed. Notice what your finger is doing now-- it's not like you learn 100% piano technique (as in, the "right" way) right away. And besides... every teacher I've had has taught my little things about technique in general, and my technique has almost completely changed since I switch teachers. Anyway, to get back on topic: Notice it, try to "fix" it, but it probably isn't going to destroy you at this point in time :)

Thank you both for your help! My friend suggested that I learn Bach's BWV 847 (Well-Tempered Clavier) to see if it will help at all, but we'll see how it goes.

I don't think any one piece will help. You will probably at some point along the line get thrown finger exercises at you to help, but if not done in the right way, this will make it worse.

My teacher made me do the (have to admit, seemingly ridiculous when you first come across them) Feuchtwanger exercises which are specifically aimed at reducing tension. Though again if you don't have guidance with them, they probably won't help.

Anyway, it's the teacher, not the pieces/technical exercises you do- and most importantly time.

Thanks, Thorn - appreciate the advice. :)

I don't think any one piece will help. You will probably at some point along the line get thrown finger exercises at you to help, but if not done in the right way, this will make it worse.

My teacher made me do the (have to admit, seemingly ridiculous when you first come across them) Feuchtwanger exercises which are specifically aimed at reducing tension. Though again if you don't have guidance with them, they probably won't help.

Anyway, it's the teacher, not the pieces/technical exercises you do- and most importantly time.

Once again, I completely agree.

In my experience, my first teacher said that it was okay for me to start practicing the Hanon exercises, mostly on my request (I was always very particular about my technique). Although I went through the first two books, they didn't really help me that much at all, because I was practicing them with tension -- thinking that was "strengthening" my hands and arm. I look back on this and laugh, to be perfectly honest, but in reality it isn't too much of a laughing matter. It was because of my teacher that I believed that (as in he didn't "disagree" with it) and we never really worked on technique in the first place. The same thing king of happened with my second teacher, however he did teach me how to "relax" and play without tension. My technique has only grown as I've played piano more on my own, as it seems, up until now.

Honestly it hasn't been until college, where I HAVE to learn proper technique, and have been taught/corrected, in order to pass my technical exams with scales and arpeggios at fair tempos.

Best of luck, my friend!

I'll just say that after a certain level, self-exploration is key if you take piano as an art. Techniques and teachers are important, but don't get too hung up on them. You'll outgrow both as you evolve.

^ Very true, however, there is so much art and music to already learn and study that to get to that level of self-exploration requires many years of seriousness ;)

It's useful to see where you're going.

Sticking with "the establishment" too rigidly will turn you into a clone of the majority of musicians who are basically just, mediocre. They only know how to follow what their teachers tell them.

I wouldn't want our budding pianist to end up like that.

Right now, if you can hit any note with your right pinky or do a 4th/5th-finger mordent any time, that's a good enough goal. Your hands will naturally relax as the piano becomes an extension of your body.