Yes, this already can be thought of as a topic to be considered in Composing General Chat, but it isn't. Orchestration is like Composition in that it relates to creating something completely different and can be completely original.

Now that that is established... we do have a composition thread, and it's fairly inactive for whatever reasons, but what about orchestration? There is A LOT of arrangers on this forum as well as composers. I thought it might be important to open up a thread dedicated to the orchestration and instrumentation of your own (or another's) pieces of music.

If one can say that a said person's compositional values can be great, so can their ways with the ensemble. I am not saying to junk composers, quite the contrary, to encourage the use and target the misuse of the ensemble. I feel that with an open discussion of orchestration-- by the book and from experience-- will strike a serge of confidence in the community of composers we have here. So, without further adieu, why not just list out what we can do here:

-Discuss Orchestration (overall, just bring up some stuff that's related)
-Look back on the key orchestrators (Berlioz, Rimsky-Korsakov, Ravel)
-Post facts/links/tips on orchestrating
-Give advice
-Upload experiments or share an idea

I bet there's more, but this is just a simple introduction, yes?

To start this off, I made this thread because my teacher and I have been delving our minds and hearts into that base orchestrator, Rimsky-Korsakov. After peering through his text, The Principles of Orchestration, I have found simple principles (or "guidelines" if you will) that greatly contribute to the sound and appeal to my ideas, even if they are fairly vague. I see this is a help for me to be confident in myself and I want to share that with others. I do have the book, myself, but here's a nifty little link ya'll might wanna check out!

[Interactive] PRINCIPLES OF ORCHESTRATION by Rimsky-Korsakov (http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=77)

It's the complete text, but the examples given are ready to be played out for you, instead of having to score-read it in your head.

But really, what's your opinions on Orchestration? And we all know we wish Sir_Dotdotdot was here to talk about this with us...

I was thinking about doing one of these, but I thought it would be a stupid idea, since I couldn't think of a good way to start it.

My story with using the Principles of Orchestration site:

In my personal opinion, I find Rimsky-Korsakov's rules to be quite strict to the point where it's unrealistic.

I did study RK's text about a year or two ago, and after that, I wasn't composing so well. Then I just decided to stop listening to RK's music and going on that site; I instead wanted to make my own perspective on orchestration. It was as if RK's orchestration rules were all that I followed, and I didn't have a personal orchestration style.

Then, I decided to start listening to Ravel's music, since I started to be interested in late-Romantic/Impressionist music. I started listening to Ma Mere l'oye, and Alborada del Gracioso (which I believe is a part of Ravel's "Miroirs" (sp?)). Then I decided to dig even deeper into his music: listening to Daphnis et Chloé (the whole thing). There's so much in it...

I then had the inspiration to make a suite, titled "Friends Suite." Basically, what I did was take about 9 friends and put their personalities into music. I did the same concerning any connections I saw among them. What did this for me was being able to make music based on things that are in life. It helped me see, almost, character-like qualities in each instrument.

In other words, I don't really like how strict RK's book is on orchestration and I feel that orchestration should not be strictly based on rules (although, there are some). In my opinion, orchestration is better learned looking at scores and interpreting them as you see them.

After looking over a couple of orchestral scores, there are some tendencies that I notice that are done with woodwinds, strings, etc. (to be posted at a later time)

(I was actually thinking that Sir_Dotdotdot would be active on Ichigo's longer than he was. :/)

EDIT: Here's another site: Common Problems in Orchestration (http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=97)

That's really the key. There are no rules to orchestration, but guidelines. One thing to keep in mind about rules, and this comes from the mouth of my government professor. Rules determine decisions determine outcomes. If you follow someone's set rules, they can control how you will act to a degree. The same thing can be said in our situation. These orchestration principles may help you express something you hear in your head, but shouldn't be taken as the absolute truth.

So I say go forth. Explore. Experiment. Let your imagination run wild.

Yes, I do even remember you clarinetist detesting RK's book a few months ago. Although, I have never followed rules of anything to a degree where it wasn't artistic. I've just started out studying orchestration by listening and getting the feel for it and now I'm finally studying a great "textbook" to know how to achieve such things.

Myself, in music theory, wanted to use all of the part-writing rules for anything that I could, after a while, I had even exhausted the exceptions which Ottman had given me (although Ottman directly was taking from Bach's example, just putting it in a text, such a RK is from his for orchestration). Bach himself had broken rules and exceptions which he had "artistically" made up in himself. And everyone who came after Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Berlioz, Rimsky-Korsakov, Ravel, Stravinsky kept breaking rules and creating a-new.. their own principles which they feel supports their own musical styles. I do not think RK had the intention that he gave rules for people to follow, quite the contrary, I feel that his intention was to write what he does and what he feels right and for you to have a great base off of it. Just like anything, if you follow something too closely it won't be anything but you following-- after studying Ottman's theory, I felt superb and confident in what I had learned and that a field of inspirations and creativity actually opened up to me instead of feeling confined. I am ALREADY starting to feel opened up just after the past two months.

I can understand that; I just think that one should develop a sense of orchestration (like what I described) before reading that book.

--

A few tendencies:

1) I, if necessary, keep any textural harmonies in the 2nd Violin/Viola when writing for strings. (e.g. from "Expression #1 (http://forums.ichigos.com/showthread.php?p=406887)")

(At the start of the flute melody; string parts in concert pitch; viola in alto clef: )

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j266/Bbclarinetist/Ex1.png

I generally like using eighth notes and triplets for texture.

2) If I need an oboe to blend, I usually put at least one in unison with a clarinet. Sometimes I do it in the following matter: flute (higher part), oboe + clarinet (lower; in unison), and an English horn or clarinet below. (example from J.L. (http://forums.ichigos.com/showthread.php?p=413140))

(Beginning: )

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j266/Bbclarinetist/Ex2.png

(more to be posted)

(I was actually thinking that Sir_Dotdotdot would be active on Ichigo's longer than he was. :/)


Sorry, that might be my doing... he was kind of a git sometimes, though, and I didn't mind telling him so.

Or maybe he's just a grown up, capable of making all sorts of grown-up decisions and decided to spend time elsewhere.

Or maybe he's just a grown up, capable of making all sorts of grown-up decisions and decided to spend time elsewhere.

Good point. XD

I wish he could be here, though, since he has studied (and furthermore) applied a lot of things to his music. It'd be enlightening just to talk with a younger person about such things.

I sense that orchestration is hard to pull of if the conductor does not understand it. Specifically, our new (young) band director had brought out a bad part in a doubling, at least in my ear. In this arrangement of Ave Maria, the flutes oboe and saxophone all play the melody. It would seem that in this section that the flutes would be prominent. Under than would be the oboe THEN saxophone. He did not pay attention that the saxophones were taking the flutes place, and pushing them second. It has a nasty quality to it (plus, high school saxophones aren't good sounding in general). I feel that the flute's color would leave the sound "there" but with the oboe it sweetens the part and the saxes add a little meat (they are an octave below in unison).

Gah, it's hard to leave such careful things in conductor's hands...

Good point. XD

I wish he could be here, though, since he has studied (and furthermore) applied a lot of things to his music. It'd be enlightening just to talk with a younger person about such things.

I sense that orchestration is hard to pull of if the conductor does not understand it. Specifically, our new (young) band director had brought out a bad part in a doubling, at least in my ear. In this arrangement of Ave Maria, the flutes oboe and saxophone all play the melody. It would seem that in this section that the flutes would be prominent. Under than would be the oboe THEN saxophone. He did not pay attention that the saxophones were taking the flutes place, and pushing them second. It has a nasty quality to it (plus, high school saxophones aren't good sounding in general). I feel that the flute's color would leave the sound "there" but with the oboe it sweetens the part and the saxes add a little meat (they are an octave below in unison).

Gah, it's hard to leave such careful things in conductor's hands...

Hmm, the flute and oboe make good sense... but alto sax too? No. That seems silly. If it was me, I'd probably replace the alto sax with a french horn. It should sound like so...

If I'm interpreting what Mazeppa said correctly, it's flute, oboe, and saxophone in unison? I asked Sir_Dotdotdot about something similar to that here (http://forums.ichigos.com/showthread.php?p=330722).


The doubling is logical only in band settings. Alto sax is a good blend with oboe and any other instruments in its family. Because alto sax smoothens out the oboe's nasal quality, therefore flute can integrate smoothly.

Yeah, actually that doesn't sound as bad as I would have thought. May if I were to add a fourth instrument it'd be the Horn. XD