I've been wanting since a while now to practice more and get better at playing piano, but I struggle quite a lot with all the timing stuff, and coordinating my both hands.. but well timing is more of a concern to me right now
so, I've been wondering if anyone knows any good teaching books that have exercises and stuff to improve in all that timing stuff, for amateurs of course.

any help will be greatly appreciated
thanks in advance

Hanon. Sure, it'll break your fingers, cause severe brain damage, is boring, and maybe useless. But I used it, and... erm, I play piano... /better/ now >_<

http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/title/Virtuoso-Pianist-In-60-Exercises-Complete/3144241

You should be able to afford to buy it, but if you can't... I'm sure there are online ones.

Hanon. Sure, it'll break your fingers, cause severe brain damage, is boring, and maybe useless. But I used it, and... erm, I play piano... /better/ now >_<

http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/title/Virtuoso-Pianist-In-60-Exercises-Complete/3144241

You should be able to afford to buy it, but if you can't... I'm sure there are online ones.

warning: may be extremly boring to practice.......:P

May be? It is. Until the 5th book, that's when they start to get interesting (and hand-breaking)...

warning: may be extremly boring to practice.......:P

make that lethally boring -_-
Hanon actually suggests playing ALL of his exercises every day... you'd be better off playing a bach invention or czerny etude in my opinion

Warning: Hanon will develop TERRIBLE, HORRIBLE and BAD technique and TERRIBLE, HORRIBLE and BAD habits.

Don't do it.

Any questions?

I studied piano in a conservatory of music and have been playing piano for more than 8 years and the only exercise of Hanon I played was the first one I think... xD

Meh, we should make a hanon thread...

Warning: Hanon will develop TERRIBLE, HORRIBLE and BAD technique and TERRIBLE, HORRIBLE and BAD habits.

Don't do it.

Any questions?

Explain?

Most people, especially self-taught players and early students, will develop a bad technique. What does that mean? Let me specify: I remember back a few years when I was doing Hanon exercises myself, and I discussed them here on Ichigo's. I said how much stronger I felt and how I built up my endurance. It was at this time when Thorn, a very intelligent and sensitive player here on the forums, said that he used to feel that way, but then learned that playing is all about "relaxing."

This is where Hanon is at fault: it does not teach, naturally, how to relax when playing. Most teachers of early students do not pay attention to tension, let alone people who are teaching themselves. Hanon only encourages this technique of "endurance" and "strength."

And now the question arises, "How does one achieve dexterity, control, independence and a relaxed body all in one?" Slow, careful and observant exercises.

[[Not to mention, people are always viewing the stereotype of pianists to have "strong fingers" and comment on people who play for extended periods, "Oh man! Doesn't his fingers hurt?!" This is not the case. My fingers aren't stronger than anyone elses, in fact, I probably have less strength in my hands than most people do, and if your fingers are hurting when you're playing...well, you're completely tense and playing like a moron, to be frank.]]

The exercises Id o are basic and extremely simple. Scales, arpeggios and my personal favorites 5-finger patterns and thirds. When I am playing these exercises, my focus is on lowering my shoulders, using the weight of my arm, forearm, hand, etc. and thinking of the fingers as needles and NOT individual muscles. This way you develop great tone as well as keeping your arm in tact, being able to play anything from a simple scale, to quick 16th note passages and chords written by Rachmaninoff.

Any more questions?

Meh, personally I believe exercises can't teach you anything; you'll have to actually play pieces to be able to learn something. They offer... practice in certain areas, but the only way to actually learn would be to play...

Meh, personally I believe exercises can't teach you anything; you'll have to actually play pieces to be able to learn something. They offer... practice in certain areas, but the only way to actually learn would be to play...

You're on to the right track, however, not completely. Yes, the only way to play better is to practice your pieces better. But to dismiss all exercises as teaching you nothing worth while at all is a complete fallacy. For one, you're still practicing, and if you practice exercises that music is made up of (like the 4 exercises/techniques I mentioned) you can strongly benefit from them.

And, for the record, I'm not being defensive, I just want a steady stream of truth and experience flowing through this topic.

I use Hanon for intermediate students who still haven't fully developed their hand positions and relaxation so its quite the opposite from what Mazeppa had said. I think that it is all in how it is taught. I said it was boring but I never said it was bad. The first 10-20 is usually all that I will ever use depending on how quickly the student develop their "good" technique. The thing is, in order for the student to play Hanon at its intended speed, they have to learn to relax or they will not be able to keep it up for the entire duration. It's not the fingers that hurts, its the forearms that hurts if they are tense. Play Those Who Fight from FFVII 5 times without stopping on tempo. For most people, this will be a challenge...assuming they can play it...after the 3rd or 4th time, they will start to feel the burn. If you simply sat there playing Hanon at quarter speed trying to build strength in your fingers then you have failed to see what the book was designed for.

down load the free version of sythesia...then practise on the songs already in the program. when you have mastered them go on google and serach the song (for example "iron man") then type free midi after that. save that midi then it should be in sythesia for u to learn! good luck with piano

I use Hanon for intermediate students who still haven't fully developed their hand positions and relaxation so its quite the opposite from what Mazeppa had said. I think that it is all in how it is taught. I said it was boring but I never said it was bad. The first 10-20 is usually all that I will ever use depending on how quickly the student develop their "good" technique. The thing is, in order for the student to play Hanon at its intended speed, they have to learn to relax or they will not be able to keep it up for the entire duration. It's not the fingers that hurts, its the forearms that hurts if they are tense. Play Those Who Fight from FFVII 5 times without stopping on tempo. For most people, this will be a challenge...assuming they can play it...after the 3rd or 4th time, they will start to feel the burn. If you simply sat there playing Hanon at quarter speed trying to build strength in your fingers then you have failed to see what the book was designed for.

I don't mean to sound defensive, but I didn't say that Hanon creates tension -- but most teacher's who give their students Hanon, and self taught players, don't pay attention to tension. I'm not against it, but in nearly every-single case (my own as well) I've seen it has only worked against people in the long run.

Most people, especially self-taught players and early students, will develop a bad technique. What does that mean? Let me specify: I remember back a few years when I was doing Hanon exercises myself, and I discussed them here on Ichigo's. I said how much stronger I felt and how I built up my endurance. It was at this time when Thorn, a very intelligent and sensitive player here on the forums, said that he used to feel that way, but then learned that playing is all about "relaxing."

This is where Hanon is at fault: it does not teach, naturally, how to relax when playing. Most teachers of early students do not pay attention to tension, let alone people who are teaching themselves. Hanon only encourages this technique of "endurance" and "strength."

And now the question arises, "How does one achieve dexterity, control, independence and a relaxed body all in one?" Slow, careful and observant exercises.

[[Not to mention, people are always viewing the stereotype of pianists to have "strong fingers" and comment on people who play for extended periods, "Oh man! Doesn't his fingers hurt?!" This is not the case. My fingers aren't stronger than anyone elses, in fact, I probably have less strength in my hands than most people do, and if your fingers are hurting when you're playing...well, you're completely tense and playing like a moron, to be frank.]]

The exercises Id o are basic and extremely simple. Scales, arpeggios and my personal favorites 5-finger patterns and thirds. When I am playing these exercises, my focus is on lowering my shoulders, using the weight of my arm, forearm, hand, etc. and thinking of the fingers as needles and NOT individual muscles. This way you develop great tone as well as keeping your arm in tact, being able to play anything from a simple scale, to quick 16th note passages and chords written by Rachmaninoff.

Any more questions?

Ah, then you're doing the exercises wrong.

Exercises by themselves are neutral. It's how you use them that gives them their value.

Hanon gives me two things to work with:

First, each Hanon exercise focuses on specific fingering patterns that you might be unfamiliar with or find it more difficult to play than you would a basic C major scale. The point of playing these is to build neuro-muscular pathways that will open up your hands to greater flexibility and dexterity. I know some high level pianists who found that some patterns or fingerings feel awkward and hard to "get into their system." Those are the ones who never played Hanon.

Second, it's strength and endurance, but not in the way you're putting it. The point is to develop the capacity to play different patterns of fingerings accurately at high speed and under stress, so that when you let go of it all and play your pieces normally as they should, they become exceedingly easy.

That's what exercises are for. You do them to for the benefits that will automatically improve your skills without thinking about the exercises.
Do the exercises, then let them go.
Let the exercises do their work, then forget about them.


But, if you think that Hanon exercises means stressing pure strength and endurance and trying to bring that into your regular playing by focusing on having "strong fingers"? That's what they are for you.

This is all just for clarification.

You strongly misinterpret what I have said, Zero. As you've read, I love exercises and I think they're great (that was a response to a user who said that you don't need exercises since they don't do anything for you at all). There is, however, a misconception with what you quoted me on there -- when did you acquire all of that knowledge about Hanon, exercises and [the approach to] practicing? I'm sure it wasn't when you were teaching yourself, and if it was an early teacher of yours (let's admit it, I've yet to hear of any college students practicing Hanon) then damn, I gotta say I'm proud of that teacher to instill those principles, since many early teachers do not.

Zero, I know HOW to practice exercises, but let's get something straight here, what you've explained to 'me' is a result of experience and exposure to elements of playing. When I'm talking about how people (even myself) went through Hanon and felt those sensations, it was because a lack of exposure and the correct way to play them, and on an even higher note, how to play the piano correctly.

Theoretically, you're correct, however in many people's practices, I am correct, and this is what I was talking about -- the reality. Unless somebody sits down with the [original] user who asked about Hanon and knows how to teach them to him, he should stay away from Hanon, in my honest opinion.

P.S. And I think you need to reread what I've written in the post you quoted before taking things out of context :)

Sounds to me like Mazeppa didn't properly study Hanon or was tutored under a terrible instructor. There isn't a single piece of bad advise when it comes to music; and that's the magic of it all. It's all opinionated. That's why a good 90% of musicians are impressionistic and charismatic. What studies did not work for you does not necessarily mean that they will not work for another. The reactions that you've described may be true for what you have experienced yourself, but do they apply to others? Did you witness this when you were torturing tutoring someone else? Who else shares your claims of tension and stress? Do they teach others? What other methods cover the same topics as Hanon in a less tensioned way? The claim you've made is bold, given the earlier slant towards the Hanon method, but I don't see much to your argument other than your own personal kinesics and beliefs.

I am still surprised at the ignorance in this thread. Does not anybody understand what I have said? I feel I have oversimplified what I've said thus far. My only conclusion is that people are not reading my posts entirely, and are severely confused.

Moving forward, my instructor had his strengths and his weaknesses (I can't believe I am actually resorting to explain my personal life to make a point). He was an extremely encouraging and musical teacher. Rarely did we work on technique or exercises, and when we did, it was because of my request. I was able to move quickly to harder and harder pieces, but of course they weren't played exceptionally clean. When my ear got stronger and I got stricter on my technique, I always asked about exercises. He encouraged scales and arpeggios, since those are the techniques that widely make up all piano technique. Yes, he did not teach me about how to be relaxed, and he never was strict on posture and positioning of the fingers, but he was not a 'terrible instructor.' He was better than most people's first teachers, since he gave me something that was far better than playing Hanon the right way -- the love, passion and sensitivity to music.

Moving forward, once again, my current teacher's approach to technique is extremely simplistic, however, much thought is put into it, since in order to be a musician you need to 'body' to respond what you want to do in your 'mind.' With this, I've come to adore exercises and studying the body and how to train it, when it comes to the piano. Although most of my technical study was by myself, the principles of which I stand upon where taught, shown and instilled to me by my current mentor. I didn't just come up with them on my own, and you now know my first teacher's specialty wasn't technique too.

The reason why I am even giving this the time of day is to help others. However, it seems that me being criticized I should just be shooed away as someone who doesn't know what he's talking about. I think I've been around here long enough to gain the trust of my word, especially when it comes to my [b]specialty.

And M, you're correct, there are no 'bad' pieces of advice when it comes to music, however, there are amateur ones. Of course, my originally statement about Hanon was very objective, but after explaining myself three times, I think that especially you would have seen exactly where I was coming from.

And because I am being forced to, I shall reform my approach a tad:

There is nothing wrong with exercises, or Hanon for that matter. However, in most cases, exercises are 'abused' because of the lack of knowledge and/or mentoring in the person who is studying/practicing the exercises.

Since the first explanation I gave, my focus was on how people do not just have the information on HOW to practice and what to LOOK FOR when they do practice. It just doesn't happen. Those facts and approaches to exercises need to be taught and nurtured by a teacher, tutor, mentor, or whoever.

If there are any questions after this, I shall be very surprised.

Hanon's exercises are of course not bad in themselves, but the way he suggests we play them is a little suspect (in my opinion) he seems to tell you to strike each key as you would use a typewriter.... this of course gets very hard on the fingers and fatigue is easy.... not to mention the risk of newbies playing it improper under stress... worst case is if someone plays through the pain, injuries can develop.

Sure, in all my years of piano I played only the first three exercises ^^ when I was smaller I hated hanon since it gets tiring... that was until I learned the proper technique... and suddenly things became easier. Take for example the first exercise.... if you just play it like that, chances are you can only go so fast before you hit a wall...
but involve your wrists in sideways movement and suddenly you can go so much faster with almost no limit! Just put your fingers on the keys (CEFG&A at the beginning, for the right hand) and use your arm and wrist to manipulate them. At minimum, all your fingers have to do is just press down! Anyone can at least do that! This is because the muscle in your arms and shoulders are already naturally one heck of a lot stronger, faster, and more subtle than those in your fingers. So use them!

Piano playing with fixed wrists is horrible! (yes, I am aware some people were taught that way, and it works for them; I can't do it though) But once you involve the arms and wrists into the action it becomes a lot easier. I presume when Hanon wrote his exercises the so called "arm weight" school of thought had not been developed yet.

On another completed unrelated note; did everyone actually play through Hanon...?

I am still surprised at the ignorance in this thread. Does not anybody understand what I have said? I feel I have oversimplified what I've said thus far. My only conclusion is that people are not reading my posts entirely, and are severely confused.
It's simple - you're missing the point.

The reason I gave you an opportunity to explain why you have such a personal affliction with Hanon is to create for the readers a contrast between how an exercise can go right and how an exercise can go wrong.

Then a reader looking for tips on Hanon will get the full picture - how it hasn't worked for someone, how it has worked for someone, and that what doesn't work for one person can work for others. They'll be able to understand how to do Hanon exercises and make it work for them, as well as how to avoid problems that other people may have faced.

That's alot more helpful than to claim "Warning: Hanon will develop TERRIBLE, HORRIBLE and BAD technique and TERRIBLE, HORRIBLE and BAD habits. Don't do it. Any questions?" wouldn't you say?


Since the first explanation I gave, my focus was on how people do not just have the information on HOW to practice and what to LOOK FOR when they do practice. It just doesn't happen. Those facts and approaches to exercises need to be taught and nurtured by a teacher, tutor, mentor, or whoever.

If there are any questions after this, I shall be very surprised. Well, in my other post I just gave two ways to practice Hanon I've found to be extremely helpful as well as a pointer to keep in the back of your mind to help readers with the exercises.

Seeing how you've completely brushed off what others in the thread have said, I can only conclude that you're simply trying to push your narrow-minded personal belief that Hanon exercises are unavoidably harmful without being specifically taught and nurtured, which as M said, is a bold claim based solely on your own personal experiences.

Besides, if you read other people's posts clearly and without bias (which I did yours) instead of trying to push your personal beliefs, you'll notice that both KaitouKudou and I gave the readers some useful tips on how to play Hanon exercises in a way that'll be helpful for them, rather than missing the point and abusing the exercises like some other pianists have.

Isn't that precisely the "knowledge" or "mentoring" that you stress is so important for people doing exercises?

Isn't that precisely the "knowledge" or "mentoring" that you stress is so important for people doing exercises?

Just about.

On another completed unrelated note; did everyone actually play through Hanon...?

I've personally known so many pianists, and I've never met anyone who's done all 60 :heh: Let alone practice each of them every day like Hanon suggests.

There are certain specific ones that I dont see much point in doing.... llike.... seriously learning to do tremolos with your 4th finger and pinky? (this is played with the thumb held down so my wrist couldnt fully get into the action and help out... I had a horrible time with that one) :\ In real pieces, generally you can overcome that problem by using different fingering and whatnot...

someone mentioned finger pattern problems that are hard to get into the system -_- I totally know what you mean... but I've found it a lot more effective to just involve the wrist and arms and try to find a natural way to play it... (worst comes to the worst, change the fingering) rather than having your fingers repeat the pattern over and over and over a thousand times.

Let's just say I like taking the easy way out. (this coming from a guy who occasionally has his right hand cross over and play the left hand part in some really difficult passages... otherwise the tone or pulse would be uneven and I cant have that... my left hand is significantly slower than my right one XD Thankfully most examiners are so busy writing down their comments that they dont really look at your fingers)

If I had really been more focused on technique I would've become a much better pianist than I am now :heh: Maybe practicing Hanon daily could've been useful for me... dunno

Eh, as the others said (and what they've been discussing), it's all in how you practice them...
I've actually done all 60, but definitely not in the "good" way, which is why I quit Hanon, as I didn't practice them "right". As you said, better the easier way than the hard way :P

Huh, explains a lot. I used to rush through the Hanons, thinking the faster, the more precise, the better. Obviously, as an ignorant beginner, I tensed up a lot and had to resort to taking breaks between every few exercises. Sorta quit piano because of it; I couldn't feel the flexibility of the instrument.

I might start playing piano again just because I read the Hanon debate. ^^

Eh, as the others said (and what they've been discussing), it's all in how you practice them...
I've actually done all 60, but definitely not in the "good" way, which is why I quit Hanon, as I didn't practice them "right". As you said, better the easier way than the hard way :P

That's the spirit! (although I must bow to your amazing feat of completing all 60)
Man our piano teachers are gonna kill us XD
But hey, whatever gets you that diploma, right? Even if it means being cheap when the situation calls for :D