Log in

View Full Version : Voting - Mission: Composition



PorscheGTIII
July 16th, 2011, 04:25 am
Congratualtions everyone! We have eleven entires in our mini-contest! That's a lot more than we have had in a long while (and quite possibly the most we've ever had!). With eleven entries, we cannot use the thread poll option (the maximum number of choices is ten), so you'll have to post your vote along with why you feel it should win. I'll keep a Running tally of votes in this post. All the entries are great! Here are the rules for voting:

Rules


One vote per person. The poll is public, so anyone can see how many times you voted.
You cannot vote for yourself. Again, it's a public poll so everone can see if you voted for yourself.
To validate your vote, you must also post why you feel the composition you choose is better than the rest.
Voting ends July 31, 2011 at 11:59pm
The winner will be the member who has the most validated votes.
If the contest ends in a tie, that will be the result. No tie breakers.
Breaking a rule disqualifies you from the competition.
OPTIONAL: Please feel free to comment on other compositions as well. This is a learning experience for all, so feedback is more than welcomed.


Here are our entries. Please take enough time to listen to everyone before making your decision!

Entries

clarinetist - "9-14" (http://forums.ichigos.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=13837&d=1308104326)
Von Hohenheim - "Cogs (correct)" (http://forums.ichigos.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=13863&d=1308466663)
PorscheGTIII - "Quick 32" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYbLEpfkMsU&hd=1)
Ander - "A Lonely Scientist" (http://soundcloud.com/ander-2/a-lonely-scientist)
alpiso - "Ambiance13" (http://www.box.net/shared/kgy5ztl6l3gjinams34r)
Composingcap - "Loss" (http://snd.sc/kX6hR3)
Marioverehrer - "Harmonic Garden" (http://games4um.ga.funpic.de/Harmonic%20Garden.mp3)
kentaki_sama - "Opus no. 19 'The Woods'" (http://youtu.be/9thTz56x-EM)
KaitouKudou - "32bar Heroism" (http://forums.ichigos.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=13957&d=1310134658)
Victor Seven - "Promenade" (http://forums.ichigos.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=13958&d=1310138362)
Emeraldshine - "Kyrie" (http://forums.ichigos.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=13960&d=1310227523)

Good luck to everyone and may the best composer win!

Vote Tallies

clarinetist - 0
Von Hohenheim - 3
PorscheGTIII - 2
Ander - 0
alpiso - 2
Composingcap - 0
Marioverehrer - 1
kentaki_sama - 0
KaitouKudou - 6
Victor Seven - 0
Emeraldshine - 0

Azurdori
July 16th, 2011, 11:17 am
My vote shall go to Von Hohenheim's piece, as I really enjoyed that one! It sounded like game music, and I could see it being played in the background and getting stuck in your head :P.

Alfonso de Sabio
July 16th, 2011, 03:26 pm
Clarinetist—You are an excellent composer. This piece isn't really my style.

Von Hohenheim—The percussion in this piece steals the show. It's really fun!

PorscheGTIII—You have a masterful balance between the instruments. Nice themes, too.

Ander—I thought your solo piano parts were amazing. The composition got a little muddy, though, when you started adding other instruments.

Alipso—This felt like Zelda/Elevator music fusion.

Composingcap—I was blown a way by the first chord. You are doing a lot of experimenting; I can tell. But the problem with experiments is that the results are not created equal. Some passages are great. Others are lacking.

Marioverehrer—Nice textures, but I never felt like I got a melody.

kentaki_Sama—You created a powerful mood, but I never felt like the promise of that first note was fulfilled. The stuff around 1:13 just sounded trite.

KaitouKudou—I love the hell out of this one. Yes, it's cheesy beyond all reason, but I feel like you accomplished exactly what you set out to do. Also, this orchestration is top-notch.

Victor Seven—I don't feel like this piece ever decided what it was going to be. It doesn't sound very much like a promenade. It has some great moments, but not much cohesion.

Emeraldshine—This felt like you were a little out of your depth. If I remember right, this is really a choral piece? But it sounds like a kid snuck into the chapel and started pounding on an organ. I know you're trying to do unconventional things with rhythm and harmony, but it just doesn't work for me. When Deathraider gets back from his two-year hiatus, talk to him about choral writing. He's a champ.

Congratulations to all the contestants. This is one of the most fun competitions I've seen around these parts.

My vote goes to...

KaitouKudou!

:china:

Zero
July 16th, 2011, 04:37 pm
clarinetist - The atmosphere works, if a little disordered (even if it was intentional, it was difficult for my ears to follow). A bit more structure would bring out the atmosphere.

Von Hohenheim - Satisfying patterns especially in the beginning, the melody in the middle was easy to follow, toward the end though the patterning felt a tad "too much."

PorscheGTIII - I can hear Visual Novel and Tenmon influences. The harmony and atmosphere are good, but the melody doesn't feel like it fits with the rest of the piece. Would be interesting to hear a melody-less version of it.

Ander - Interesting piano track, unusual harmony that fits surprisingly well. I could see this working in a soundtrack piece.

alpiso - Simple yet satisfying. The chimes really worked, the piano set a foundation for the horns' comfortable melody that didn't interfere with the overall mood. The ending works.

Composingcap - Sounds like something taken straight out of a classic RPG. The atmosphere works. Some parts were a tad difficult for the ears to follow. Cool ending.

Marioverehrer - This piece had direction. Felt like the song was gently leading you forward, like a good story. The diversity of instruments added to that story-like quality. Without a single consistent melody though it's essentially a background music piece.

kentaku_sama - The second half was cool. The part immediately following 1:13 had excellent pacing and atmosphere. If the first half was fleshed out, it could work as an intro or a separate piece serving as a lead-in for the second half. Has that "light at the end of the tunnel" feel.

KaitouKudou - Comfortable melody & pacing, and good harmony. Not much else to say. Balanced and well-constructed.

Victor Seven - Hmm... the different sections of the piece felt fragmented. Sounded kind of like high renaissance ballroom music. If the different sections could be pieced together more smoothly it would sound more complete.

Emeraldshine - I can see the atmosphere you were going for. It needed more structure to bring the piece together. The mood was there, but difficult to follow.


I hate to name a "winner" since every piece was so different and every composer focused on bringing out a different aspect of music, which all work. I'll just say my favorite was alpiso's, based on structure and balance.

Spiritsoul
July 16th, 2011, 06:49 pm
Close call, but my votes goes to PorscheGTIII.

PorscheGTIII
July 16th, 2011, 07:09 pm
Close call, but my votes goes to PorscheGTIII.

You have to say why though or we can't count your vote! :lol:

Emeraldshine
July 16th, 2011, 11:31 pm
clarinetist - Is this piece entirely tonal? I don't really feel qualified to critique it. The chord at the end is a little jarring, but I'm guessing that's intentional. Some cool harmonies.

Von Hohenheim - Pretty much what Zero said. It starts off sounding amazing, but by the end it feels like a great idea stretched just a little too far.

PorscheGTIII - Have you ever heard of Ola Gjeilo? This reminds me of his music, especially his piano pieces (Link (www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABcl_BucGrA)). Warm and natural, with writing that fits the instrumentation perfectly! Very nice.

Ander - I love the opening, but it loses the 'quirkyness' too quickly; I think it'd be better if you could hold on to that during the darker passages. Also, be careful when writing close harmonies in the bass line. It sounds very muddy in places.

alpiso - I actually didn't think you needed the string line, it would have sounded wonderful without it. A great ending, and some beautiful melodies!

Composingcap - I loved the first 30 seconds, but after that it's not clear what direction you're taking. A piece this cinematic needs to lead the listener very carefully.

Marioverehrer - Nothing personal, but the vi-V-IV, etc. chord progression is a little overused. The piece flowed very well. Some very nice instrument combinations as well.

Kentaku - Some great dissonances, but it's difficult to do a full orchestra piece in 32 bars, especially not with the epic feel you're going for. You don't have enough time to build. Some pretty nice dissonances, though; I think this would have worked better for a smaller group, and/or fuller harmony.

KaitouKudou - Certainly the most 'fun' piece in the contest. Fun melodies, idiomatic lines, just some great stuff all around. Extremely solid.

Victor Seven - I think you change moods too much to give a real sense of closure. The end of the song felt like "just another segment," even though I know you're quoting the opening of the piece. The climaxes weren't climax-y enough for me, as well. I did think it was cool when you switched the melody to the bass. I loved Jazz Cafe Vals, though! Too bad that one was too long...

Emeraldshine - The quintuplet motif feels tacked on, and some of the harmonies were a little TOO obvious, especially from 17-22 (I don't feel like a 'real' composer yet). If I were to redo this piece, I'd also add cadences and imitative entrances for coherance, like the medieval motets it was inspired by. All this being said, I think the piece would make much more sense sung. Thanks for any and all criticism!


When Deathraider gets back from his two-year hiatus, talk to him about choral writing. He's a champ.That he is. I actually met him on another site before I came here, and he's a pretty cool guy, and a good composer (being a former member of a world-famous collegiate choir doesn't hurt). I'm going on a similar two-year hiatus soon. :)


And my vote goes to...PorscheGTIII! I'm just a sucker for all three instruments you used, and I loved the simplicity and elegance in the piece.


Hmm...would it be too much work to make this a monthly thing? I probably won't have enough time to enter for a good long while, but I think it'd be a great environment for constructive criticism, and would be very attractive for beginning composers. Plus, it's a whole lot of fun, and half the stress!

Ander
July 16th, 2011, 11:40 pm
I personally like KaitouKudou and ultimately my vote goes to thou. I definitely thought ochestrally it stood out the most and though the melody was a very Zeldaesque, I thought it had some originality in it. Can't seem to get over the orchestral arrangement.

clarinetist - This particular piece was somewhat hard to enjoy for me. If only I knew how to analyze, then perhaps it might have been fun to pick on this song like I have fun picking my scab. ^^

Von Hohenheim - I like how it felt a little clogged and then like a big sweep of anticipated wind... it gave me the open chest feeling. However, I think it was too bland. Perhaps a little more variation of melody or rhythem.... ???

PorscheGTIII - One of my favorite I must say. It had that nostalgic feeling. I wish I can pick your song, but I believe it was too... old school. hahaha.

alpiso - Ambiance13 was cool. I think it was too simple though... but that's just my opinion. I like the sax. It's not everyday we get to hear sax in this thread.

Composingcap - The beginning was going good until more instruments came in. I would have liked it more if you limited the instruments a little. It had a nice finish though. A nice breeze in a windless desert, I thought.

Marioverehrer - I would say that yours and Porsche's piece reminded me of each other. Very nostalgic. It's as if I have bought a new game and the intro is starting. hehehe.

kentaki_sama - Somewhat dark. Probably the darkest of the whole entry. It's very cinematic. It had a nice change of atmosphere. I thought it was a bit too bland, though.

Victor Seven - I enjoy the beginning, but it feels like you decided to change it right away, then you changed it right back. It was nice to listen to actually. Can't really say anything too bad about it. Good job.

Emeraldshine - Alright an organ! Such a wonderful piece and the title is great, too. I would definitely say you're in the top 3 in this contest, but I have to only choose one. It's one of the best minute I've spent in this thread.

Von Hohenheim
July 16th, 2011, 11:52 pm
Thankyou, Azurdori :D
Clarinetist - It's not really to my taste. Impressive piece, though.
Me - I'm so not going to comment on my own piece :P I like it, though.
PorscheGTIII - beautifully filmic, and wonderfully simple. Congratulations.
Ander - A really fun piece. Occasionally slightly messy. Love the opening :P
Alpiso - Enjoyable. Beautiful orchestration, and calm without being boring.
Composingcap - Not entirely to my taste. Love from the change about 30 seconds in, and the ending was done very well.
Marioverehrer - I really enjoyed this one. It feels very... cutesy, like a children's game. Fantastic.
Kentaku_sama - Really atmospheric, tense and sad. Loved when the harp came in. The ending phrase felt a little... added on.
KaitouKudou - I can't listen to this without smiling, and feeling like something ridiculously grand is going on :P
Victorseven - Having heard 'Jazzvals', I know that this could have been better. It felt like it was carrying on because it needed to be longer, instead of flowing through it.
Emeraldshine - The harmony would be really beautiful with a choir, rather than an organ. My baby sister loved it (useless bit of information). I enjoyed this.

So... my vote. Marioverehrer. :flower:

squidge
July 17th, 2011, 12:21 am
I'm voting for Von Hohenheim. I really liked the piece. It was really pretty. absolutely amazing, i would buy this, absolutely stunning. i liked PorscheGTIII though.

Alfonso de Sabio
July 17th, 2011, 02:25 am
This is getting intense!

:jerry: KaitouKudou! KaitouKudou! :jerry:

Von Hohenheim
July 17th, 2011, 11:57 am
:jerry: Me! Me! :jerry:

No, no... I'm kidding.

EDIT: Thanks, Squidge and NLPAC :D
EDIT: So as not to waste space, I'm going to reply to clarinetist here. I love minimalism :P Though not truly minimalist for most of his life, Philip Glass is one of my favourite composers :) It's not minimalist, though :P

NLPAC
July 17th, 2011, 01:19 pm
Clarinetist- Not really to my taste

Von Hohenheim- Faultless and fun. It flowed gracefully, but was lively enough to make it exciting.

PorscheGTIII- Great fun, but didn't really grab my attention

Ander- I agree with Emeraldshine

Alpiso- Again, really nice, but didn't grab my attention

Composingcap- I agree with Von Hohenheim

Marioverehrer- I liked this piece.

Kentaki_sama- Filmy. The bit when the harp came in was great, but some of the chords didn't really work for me.

KaitouKudou- Amazing. It was majestic and beautiful.

Victor Seven- It kind of felt... longer than it was meant to be.

Emeraldshine- Not really to my taste.

So my vote goes to Von Hohenheim.

Marioverehrer
July 18th, 2011, 10:44 am
clarinetist - A disharmonic and creepy piece, but it doesn't really want to please me. The last major chord doesn't fit to the piece in my opinion.

Von Hohenheim - This piece flows the whole time. It could be used as some kind of background music.

PorscheGTIII - A very well sounding, melancholic song. The instruments sound very clear. One of my favorite songs in this contest.

Ander - Sometimes it feels jazzy, sometimes it feels dissonant, sometimes I like a point, but then comes a point I don't like. The repetition of the piece don't have so many new aspects.

alpiso - Sounds like some kind of meditation music, good work!

Composingcap - I think this piece is too disharmonic, I don't get a real structure. The pizzicato- part sounds a bit choppy to the beginning and ending part.

kentaki_sama - It begins very dark and sounds very interesting. It's a pity that the feeling get a new direction, I wished that there would be climax of the dark feeling. Nethertheless a nice piece.

Kaitoukodou - The title fits 100% the piece. The instruments sound awesome, maybe a bit to much reverb. The piece also remind me to another piece, but I am not able to say its name.

Victor Seven - I like the change from the good into the dark mood. The introduction with the break wasn't so my taste.

Emeraldshine - It sounds too disharmonic in the beginning I think and gets better then. Sometimes the piece sounded good then, but there were some figures I didn't like as well.


My vote goes this time to Kaitoukodou, congratulations!

I thank Von Hohemheim for his vote to me and all over voters as well. It's very interesting how each single one thinks about a music piece.

I agree to Emeraldshine that it would be wonderful to make monthly composition competitions in this community. There is no need to compose for a price or something. The criticsm, advices and lauds are price enough, I guess.

Emeraldshine
July 18th, 2011, 04:25 pm
Geez, clarinetist, you're just way too sophisticated for us. :P

alpiso
July 18th, 2011, 08:01 pm
First of all, I'd like to say that all songs doesn't stand alone. I mean, for each of them I see images, videos, mood, etc. This is really fantastic. We could compose for movies and games :)
Then, pretty hard to me because I don't want to offend someone, but I'll give my humble own opinion which come with the feelings I had while listening all the songs.


Clarinetist : Surprising, until the end ! A modern/contemporary style, well conducted. The harmonic progressions are good. I really enjoyed the mysterious mood. But, yes, only the end disappointed me. It would rather finished with a mysterious(!) chord rather than a major one ^_^.

Von Hohenheim : The song seems to plays with an unique chord. The vibraphone walk around or reverse you, it depends... Even if there's a melodic theme, I feel the song like an accompaniement, not as a song with a strong theme.

PorscheGTIII : Writing is good. Harmonic progressions are good too. However, maybe because of this(?), it sound ever heard to me.

Ander : Yeah ! A swinging Piano !! Unfortunately the cellos parts doesn't seem to go in the same direction... Moreover, the accompaniment with Cellos seems confused to me.

Alpiso Yes, I do my criticism in spoiler (if not welcome by moderators, I'll remove) :lol::
The piano sit the piece immediately, leaving all the place to the flugelhorn which walk around with his melody. There is a melodic strong theme (So the song get a personality) and chimes & synthetic pads give depth to the ambiance and are welcome with it. The end, although "traditional/conventional" is pretty well done despite the difficulties given by a piece that never seems to end. The tempo is unfortunately a little bit too faster (that was the minimum required).

Composingcap : Maybe there's something which missed me, but I don't hear where the song go until the part beginning at 0:30 which is excellent. At this time, the mood give anxiety. After 1:00 It seems to come back into something confused. Or maybe it's because I didn't find some personnality to these parts ? Really, I'm confused, sorry. However, the end is good.

Marioverehrer : I was lost within all these instruments and these multiple voices into the first part (->0:26). The clarity of the song should not be better with less instruments ? Unless this is the balance ??

kentaki_sama : The mood is very well introduced. First part is very well conducted. I felt a missing in the inspiration to go through the end at 1:40.

KaitouKudou : As I already said : damn for the end ! Rather than slow down, it should be better a sudden ending: ta - dam !
Voices are very well conducted, except at very short points. Then on other short passages (on the second part at 0:20), the samples don't sound very well. The mood is done at the beginning and movements are well announced and conducted.

Victor Seven : Well it didn't keep my attention... Seems confused to me, maybe that voices are too close from each others ?

Emeraldshine : I have some troubles with the dissonances of the song. Maybe this is the chords or the appoggiatura. I like them, but they seems to be not well announced. Or maybe there are too much ?


At last, as Zero said, it's hard to choose one. Each song keep the rules, are enjoyable and the choice is more subjective than other thing.

So my preference goes to (and I vote for) KaitouKudou's song which give me freshness in addition to have a good voice conduction. If he could make another sitting to improve the end, It would be great and I'd be glad :)

clarinetist
July 18th, 2011, 08:51 pm
Von Hohenheim: I could see this being minimalist (I'm no expert on this, so for those of you who know minimalism, don't hate me for saying this if I'm way off :P), but it could use a bit more variety and a little more - I guess, movement and transition of line; see how you can play around with the idea, and put it all together. It's kinda hard to explain what I mean, but I've tried. xP

Porsche: The very antithesis of what I wrote for this contest. XD A bit too reliant on melody for my taste, plus maybe a bit too predictable, but it's well suited for a sort of background/film music type of deal.

Ander: The beginning was great - but when the strings came in, I felt as if some of the momentum was lost, mainly because of the switch of the pulse from the piano intro to the cello (at 0:17) which seemed kinda awkward along with the piano line (0:18). 0:31 seemed to add to the awkwardice, I think, due to the close spacing in the low bass lines - or at least that's what my ears are detecting. 0:40 seemed to have that same bass line in 0:17, now for the piano - and it seemed to end at 1:08, and it kinda leaves me hanging, as if to ask, what just happened in this last section? Also, I would have preferred the last chord to be a tutti chord.

alpiso: Sounds like it has some jazz potential - a sort of ballad, perhaps? (Again, not much of a jazz expert here. xD) Try to play around with the ideas a bit more. :) I see, though, that you were going for an ambiance, to which I would say that you were successful at doing.

Composingcap: I see you're playing around with lines a bit - try to work on balancing the lines a bit more. Try to find a trick that always works with the ears that isn't immediately obvious with people and use it in everything that you write. Reminds me of when I was doing my work on harmonic experimentation a few years ago. Keep playing around a bit. :)

Marioverehrer: Very video-game esque. I guess my suggestion on this piece would be to work on orchestration - there are a few technical problems, e.g. using the lower strings on arco to add to the piano bass note in the first measures.

kentaki_sama: Beginning reminds me of the intro to Schubert's Unfinished:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7QCCGhNWJ4

The motific material which goes on until 1:03 was, in my opinion, a bit overused. Try to use the strings in a way other than for mostly pedaling. Look into BlazingDragon's stuff a bit. :)

KaitouKudou: Very Zelda-esque - I would have preferred a bit more dense string writing in the beginning, but pretty well done. Personally, for me, I would have preferred a fp cresc. for the last chord, but it's well done.

Victor Seven: The first few chords seemed a bit unsteady - try to for something that retains its character a bit more, if you get what I mean. Work on a bit on transitional flows of line - and see where that leads you.

Emeraldshine: Love the use of dissonance in this piece for coloration - works very well with the organ. Could use a bit more work on structure and motivic direction.


---------
My vote goes to KaitouKudou: very clear direction as to where you were going with the piece, along with great orchestration. :)

KaitouKudou
July 19th, 2011, 02:53 am
Clairnetist: I think I would had enjoyed this more if there was more variety in rhythm. The last chord...I agree with what other people said.

Von Hohenheim: I actually didn't like the first half of this piece. The latter half I enjoyed very much except for the part where you dropped to a solo line around 0:40 but the finally that followed was very nice. 32bars is quite short isn't it lol. I do believe if more room was given to this piece to develop, it could become something quite spectacular.

Porsche: The ONLY two thing I would do differently if this piece was my own would be to change the violin solo sample to a sectional one unless you can get someone to help you record it, and give the violin the high note at 0:53. I almost choked when the cello came in. I melted at that moment haha! Very good.

Ander: Some parts of this piece was too clustered for me, even during the piano solo. Strictly speaking, repeated bars count for extra bars as wellXD I thought the main melody that the piece started was great. It had alot of character to it and the chords were fantastic as well.

Alpiso: I just thought that squeaking instrument in the back (waterphone?) should had been longer. I loved the general trumpet melody though. The piano pedal started getting too static for me though.

Composingcap: I'm sorry, I was at a loss.

Marioverehrer: This would work for the old school super mario RPG credits or something. The midi just brings so much more nostalgia to the feeling lol.

Kentaki_sama: Overall I thought it was very nice, dark and heavy. There were some awkwardness in the voicing that I heard throughout the piece that I wasn't sure if it was purposefully done or not. The two short pauses before the last chord didn't sit too well with me either.

Kaitoukudou: The most cliche award goes to this guy...whoever he is...<_<

Victor Seven: To me, the two themes in the piece were so far apart that they didn't really fit. However, I would say this kind of music might work in film or stage to illustrate two contracting characters.

Emeraldshine: I would like to hear this as a choir. It should be interesting.

My Vote goes to Porche. The piece melted me away-_-

PS: Thank you to all who has enjoyed my entry. I appreciate all your comments! :) The fp crescendo for the ending was the exact thought that came to me after I submitted the piece and listened to it a few times. I might make that change and repost the piece on my thread once the competition is over.

alpiso
July 19th, 2011, 11:06 am
@ PorscheGTIII : People who want to vote don't need to explain/comment each piece, isn't it ? They just need to explain why they choose the one they chose ?
I was wondering about that, because people maybe are impressed by all our technical posts :sweat:

cablecar1
July 20th, 2011, 02:01 am
Okay, I was gonna do one... but I suck at focusing (and I went on vacation). I pretty much need someone to hold a shotgun to my head for me to get something like this done. I wrote a song but I never put it into sheet music or a song file and I couldn't turn it in on time because I was on vacation without a computer... :cry: Anyways... here is my vote.

I actually liked alpiso's piece the most. It was more of my music genre and I liked the instruments that were used. Is that a good enough explanation?

PorscheGTIII
July 20th, 2011, 04:38 am
@ PorscheGTIII : People who want to vote don't need to explain/comment each piece, isn't it ? They just need to explain why they choose the one they chose ?
I was wondering about that, because people maybe are impressed by all our technical posts :sweat:

Nope, you only have to explain why you're voting for who you are voting. Commenting on everyone else's compositions is optional but highly recommended.


Is that a good enough explanation?

If that's how you justify your vote and you don't want to comment on the other compositions, then yes that'll do. ;)

kentaku_sama
July 26th, 2011, 12:36 am
Hello? Well what are the results? Who won? :mellow:

Alfonso de Sabio
July 26th, 2011, 12:40 am
Voting ends July 31, 2011 at 11:59pm

Al
July 27th, 2011, 12:11 am
My vote goes to KaitouKudou's piece. It was fun, kept my interest, and it had good direction. I'd like to see this piece expanded from its original 32 bars.