It makes me sick, you can find everything for beginners online. The BAsics, Scales ,Chords, arpeggios ect... But absolutely nothinig good on any more advanced concepts like Counterpoint, Solfege, Analysis, basics of composing?? You can find small articles and huge complicated stuff on Wikipedia but nothing easy to understand and thorough. I know you can get great books but it just puzzles me as to why nobody writes much good stuff on advanced or intermediate concepts here online, at least not in english :\ When I get there, I will write stuff for people online. ^_^

You should probably learn the different between basics and advanced. If you're looking for theory books, shy away from "advanced" harmony/theory/techniques... those are for people that are sophomores+ in college. Stick to the Elementary Harmony book that I mentioned... honestly-- there's nothing "elementary" about it after chapter two. xD

You should probably learn the different between basics and advanced.

Ooh I didn't know that advanced was higher college grades. I'll look into that book :)

Don't go near that stuff without learning figured bass, chord tendancies, voice leading, etc. first. Seriously, there are no shortcuts in music theory, or at least, none that I've found. Also know that as you get up into 'higher' levels of theory (higher than I'm at, at least), things are going to start getting more modern and less tonal.

There are books you can order. A relatively new translation of gradus is available in America and Britain (you're American, right?). Of course, it may be best to seek lessons if possible.

Lessons? I don't think so, I have a piano teacher already but she just teaches me to read music and good technique. I don't think you really need a teacher for something like learning to compose. Man I don't even know what figured bass is or anything else up there except voice leading. But even then, I've done it by ear, I've never learned any rules or techniques for voice leading.

It's very good to do so, if you're learning how to compose (learning figured bass, taking lessons, etc).

Too many young people want to just skip over our history of music and just learn advanced "techniques" when they don't even learn the true meaning of what a technique "is."

Yes, I took private Music Theory lessons, which also doubled as Composition lessons too. Know what's funny? The time that I spent with him, I didn't write anything "new" and "modern" or anything like that, yet, I've built a solid foundation of all of the fundamentals of theory and composition as well. Just like anything else you do, you can't build up unless you have a solid foundation.'

As someone mentioned, there are NO shortcuts in music theory. It just doesn't work that way. "Advanced" harmony books take what "elementary" harmony book introduce, except they analyze and figure out chromatic music of the 19th and 20th centuries. As much as you just want to skip the Baroque era and Classical eras, just like even I wanted to, you can't. And know what's interesting? After I studied elementary harmony a few years ago, and analyzed and listened to quite a bit of Baroque and Classical music... my compositions started sounded like real organized works... no matter what "style" I was writing in.

I don't mean to be harsh, but your understanding of harmony and composition is extremely null. It's not an insult at all, it's just the facts. You don't understand music, so how could you possibly write it? And if you don't know the foundations and history of music... how can you classify your compositions or your view of music as, "Experimental?" It's the same reason that you're taking piano lessons. A beginner can't just start playing and expect to play a Liszt etude in a week.

I'm just trying to help you out here. Learn the basics, and learn them very well. You'll be thankful that you did.

I agree. Learn all the basics. I put too much emphasis on harmony in my musical education. It does mean that my compositions have interesting harmony, but I have little knowledge of musical history (Mozart's dates etc.). I would like to try again, and comfortably and easiliy learn all those things. I also would have no way of writing a pastiche. I envy people who can write classical-style pieces.
Anyway, I'm saying irrelevant things. There are no shortcuts. Make sure you know the basics of everything, then go on to the advanced stuff of as much as you can. If you really want, to buy 'The Study of Couterpoint' from 'Gradus ad Parnassum' by Fux. It's accessibly written, and the best composers have looked to it as a source of compositional guidance for hundreds of years.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you. Learning a basic foundation is key but I already know keys, scales, modes and alot of harmony theory and understand how to contruct any chord. I would like some info on Baroque and Classical form and theory. But I can't find any online. Meaning I know basic theory but all I can do is make a thousand chord progression and play with it making random melodies but I never get any true music out of it that I'm happy with. That's why I was going to get a book on music theory :lol: Truth is, I don't know where to start so I guess I'll get the Ap Music theory book which starts at the very basics of theory but goes in serious depth of it then gets more advanced quickly.

People usually don't study form (as music majors) until 4th semester Theory (sometimes 3rd). You've got to get all of the 3rd semester stuff done before you even get near studying form, as form is basically a combination of all of the vocabulary that you learn in your first three semesters.

Here (http://forums.ichigos.com/showthread.php?811-Composing-General-Chat!&p=478525&viewfull=1#post478525)'s an idea of what to expect out of a first-semester Theory course.

Here's a list of later topics:

Music Theory II:

- Cadences
- Nonharmonic tones
- Modulation by common chord (pivot chord)
- Secondary leading-tone/dominant chords
- Introduction to Form (Sonata, Rondo)

Music Theory III:

- Non-traditional resolution of secondary dominant chords (e.g. the deceptive resolution)
- Borrowed chords (or modal mixture)
- bII (or N6, the neapolitan chord), and the A6 chords (Italian, French, German) to scale degree 5.
- Enharmonic respelling of secondary leading-tone chords (for use in multiple keys)
- Chromatic mediants
- Harmonic substitutions
- Enharmonic respelling of the Ger+6 chord (another favorite device of mine)

Music Theory IV:

- Emphasis on Form (Rondo, Sonata, Sonata-Rondo, Song form, etc.)

then you basically choose where you go from here: 20th Century techniques, Species Counterpoint, Canon & Fugue, etc.

What I've listed above is a VERY brief summary of 4 semesters of Theory taught in college. I still recommend any version of the Kostka - or anything that at least covers the topics above well. You need to be able to do everything above in three ways: by piano, by aural training (singing, usually), and by written notation.

Cool! I'll look up those first semester examples online and see if I can find something. :lol:

I reviewed the stuff about cadences and now I know about all four of the basic ones. So lemme see if I'm correct:

Authentic cadence is where chords move from V or viidim to I in minor V or VII to i

Perfect Authentic is where chords are V to I or V to i all are in root position and tonic note must be on top voice at the end

Imperfect fails to meet requirements of perfect

Plagal is going from IV to I or vi to i

Deceptive is going from V to any chord other that I or i

-----------------------------------------------------------
And Non-Harmonic Tones:

Nonharmonic tones are notes that do not belong to the current triad (ex: not 1,3 or 5)

Passing tones go inbetween chord 1 and two and step in same direction ex : G F E F is passing tone
(accentend PT is when it occurs on second chord)

Neighboring tones are notes which step one way then step back in the other direction both stepwise

Escape tones are notes that step one way then skip the other and are not accented

Appoggiatura are notes that skip one way then step the other (opposite of Esc Tone)

Anticipations are notes that approach stepwise and stay the same to anticipate the next chord
[meaning it has to be a note that is nonharmonic on chord 1 and harmonic on chord two for example the note F in C to F]

Retardation is a note that stays the same then steps upward

Suspension is a note that stays the same then steps downward
[I assume this is probably where a Sus chord comes from, am I right?]

Finally changing tone are notes that the first is approached stepwise then skips to another nonharmonic tone in opposite direction.

I think you've got your cadences right, with a few exceptions:
VII to anything never counts as an authentic cadence. It's the leading tone that counts here.
I've never heard two people agree on the definition of a Perfect Authentic Cadence, but that definition works fine.
V7-I also counts as authentic.
vi-I is not plagal. It has to be a IV or iv chord.Your nonharmonic tones also look good. It'd be hard to figure them out from just the text you posted, but it feels like you understand.

You're mostly self-taught, right? How much do you know about the voice-leading rules? That'd be the thing I'd worry about the most.

Yeah almost totally self taught. I meant IV, I spelled my roman numeral wrong :heh: I don't know much about voice leading rules, could you point me to some online resources? ^.^

Well, like you said, there are no online resources...here's what I know, though be warned that everyone teaches things differently, and I really don't know all that much. Note that these rules are for SATB chorale writing (Soprano, Alto, Tenor, Bass), and they assume you already know figured bass.

General rules:
Never use parallel perfect octaves and parallel perfect fifths. You should know what these are by now.
Unequal fifths, however, are fine (mixture of perfect and imperfect fifths—as long as there aren't two perfect fifths in a row)
Avoid leaps greater than a third.
Never cross voices (e.g. the soprano should always be higher than the alto, which should always be higher than the tenor, etc.)
It also counts as voice crossing when the notes in a chord would cross with the notes in a previous chord. I'm not sure how to explain this, except by showing you:

14310
In this case the alto line would be voice crossing, because it is going above where the soprano was in the last measure.

Doubling rules:
When a chord is in 1st inversion, double the root.
When a chord is in 2nd inversion, double the third, unless you have two 2nd inversion chords in a row. In that case, double the root on one of them.
When a chord is in 3rd inversion, double the fifth.
Never double a leading tone.

Positions: A chord is in open position when there is an interval larger than an octave between the tenor and soprano. A chord is in closed position when there is an interval of an octave or smaller between the tenor or soprano. Only switch between open and closed position when necessary. The soprano should never be more than an octave away from the alto.That's all I can remember at the moment. If you want to practice these, find a chorale with simple chords and copy down about eight bars of the bass. Then fill in the rest yourself (do a figured bass analysis first).

Usually you double the 5th in 2nd inversion, if I remember that correctly...

Mazeppa's right. You're supposed to double the 5th of the chord, if it's in the bass - mainly due to the fact of the "dissonant" (in medieval harmonic standards) P4 interval created from the bass and tenor. (Debussy once spoke of the 6/4 chord as "dreaded.")

Thanks for the correction—that was the one thing I wasn't sure about.

I think it's cool how learning to compose STAB music gives you alot of insight for writting rock band compositions, piano compositions and anything with chords. It gives you alot of knowledge on leading chords around nicely. :sweat: