Well, I think improvisation on different instruments is considered composing (rather quickly, I might add)... Heh. But if I can get some replies on whether this is a good Idea or not, I would be eternally grateful, and If they are supportive, I'll probably turn this thread into it... CHEERS!!

I think it's a good idea. However, most people have their own style of improvisation, and ideas might clash or not be so readily absorbed.

But a(n) FAQ would be useful! I think you should go ahead with it, but maybe wait for a bit more feedback until then. :)

THanks for the input (closest thing to bowing respectfully :rockon: ). Um... Also, I need more, tho... And for future reference, if more than one person (excluding myself) happens to like this, and it does become an Frequently Asked Questions guide... PEOPLE MUST ASK QUESTIONS... (just clarifying). ^_^

WEllll.... Alrighty. Start asking questions whenever you feel necessary.
Lesson 1
Well, improvisation is a very unique and fun way to learn to compose. It's quick and requires good thinking for music. Alright now... Most solos either have an 8-bar strain then a 4-bar exit/entrance for next soloist, two 8-bar strains, or one 8-bar strain. these are often changed a bit, sometimes altering the phrases into 5-bar, 3-bar, or stuff like that. But most importantly, are the key changes in jazz (you all knew this was JAZZ improv, yes? :P ) See, in swing (8-8= 2/3, 1/3 everything is triplets) It usually starts with the 1st chord with a diminished 7th (ex. C,E,G, Bb) This is the same as a C scale with a diminished 7th. This lasts for the first 2 bars, then goes to the 4th chord with a diminished seventh (ex. F,A,C, Eb). then goes back and repeats... Then for the last four bars, the key changes to the 5th chord seventh (ex. G, B, D, F natural), 4th, and then back to the 1st, and then the last bar is the 5th. Listen!

It's pretty hard to learn improvisation by learning the theory :P I learned it via the good ol' trial and error, "Oh, this sounds good... in combination with this chord progression? yeah.." something like that ;) It needs sometime to get used to it, but the more you pracitise the better you get. As time goes by you'll automatically know which notes fit together, get a better sense for harmony and rhythm. :)

Shore... I agree, of course.. This FAQ is to help people get a start on the sort of thing you speak of... <to everyone else> Okay&#33; You must practice this if you are able... Oh, and if you play only piano, you&#39;re screwed, cause I cant improvise on the piano... :( .
I forgot to bring my jazz improv stuff over the weekend, so Forgive me if I don&#39;t get to lesson 2 until monday... :( X_X .

[QUOTE](ex. C,E,G, Bb)[QUOTE]

that&#39;s not a diminished 7th, it&#39;s a dominant 7th by the way. diminished for the quoted chord is C,Eb,F#,A so apart from tht anymore chord patterns you could teach all us humble students of the art?

how does this quote thing work?

&#91;QUOTE&#93;Quote&#91;/QUOTE&#93; :)

trumpetplaya42? where&#39;s lesson number two?

oh&#33; ( I just read that you can&#39;t play piano :heh: oops) Um...I can try to help pianists if you want unless you want to make it into your own specific thread. I&#39;m on a learning curve at the moment but helping each other is the way forward&#33; I think you should teach everyone the blues scale trumpetplaya42 because you can combine that with the chord pattern you said earlier (for pianists). ^_^

if you don&#39;t want me butting in, just say and i&#39;ll stop.

Improv is pretty fun, though hard to rely on completely to compose. Well, most of the time, anyways. Here&#39;s something I&#39;ve done about 2 years ago, just recording my keyboard. The inspiration was that the B6(or B5?) key on my keyboard got messed up, so I decided to dedicate a short little suite to it ^_^. As a general rule, If you want to keep your (solo) improvs fairly structured, try to come up with an invariant which holds true for entirety of the piece, such as a set progression or motif (or possibly parts, if you have multiple invariants).

When I downloaded it, the file came out empty =&#092;

Strange, when I re-d/l the file, it seems to be alright. Well, here&#39;s another one I&#39;ve done more recently; it&#39;s actually a semi-improved piece, since I went edited the piece a lot after recording it with MIDI to get rid of the off/wrong notes and add/delete parts to improve the flow (I accidentally forgot the save during the first edit; the 2nd revision isn&#39;t quite as good :().

I accidentally forgot the save during the first edit; the 2nd revision isn&#39;t quite as good :(
lol, happens to me all the time XD, well it&#39;s rather I improvise something and forget to press the record button, then try to improvise on the same melody/progression again to record it, but it always turns out not as good as the first one.

think its a matter of practice to see how good you are at improvisation. I can just about improvise a whole piece now (not an amazing one though) but it&#39;s taken me a couple of years to get to where I am now. It&#39;s a matter of helping your brain think really quickly I think :think:

Is trumpet playa a missing person now?

If you use the blues scale, you have a good chance of getting it to sound good even if you&#39;re a bad improviser. When I try to improvise at piano, the blues scale always helps me...it&#39;s the only one I really like.

C Eb F F# G Bb C

or, in any other key, it&#39;s 1st, diminished 3rd, 4th, augmented 4th, 5th, diminished 7th.

I&#39;m just talking about the intervals there, not chords. Augmented=raised by semitone/half-step. Diminished means lowered by semitone/halfstep.

Ok&#33;&#33;&#33; It&#39;s good to see this thread is not completely dead... as a matter of fact, my internet was unavailable for almost a month, and the library computers block this site (the arcade). I have learned to improvise quite well... I just got a keyboard that responds to my composing program so hopefully I will put out some improv I do... in response to some of the questions, I was taught a nifty (forgive use of the word) chord pattern... I&#39;ve forgotten it now, but I&#39;d probably remember it if I saw a piano... it&#39;s a way of playing the Bb7 chord with both of your hands, and then shifting the left hand down half a step to play the Eb 7th... vewwy interesting...
And I can play piano, btw.

I see some people don&#39;t knmow music theory that well. You only use diminished and augmented if the key doesn&#39;t usually have that note. You&#39;d only use augmented for say like a fifth G# for C major or C minor. Depends on the scale. For those of you who want the blue&#39;s scale in proper form it&#39;s those notes but it goes: tonic, Minor 3rd, perfect 4th, augmented 4th (or diminished 5th), perfect 5th, augmented 6th (or dimininished 7th), tonic (8th) (hope that&#39;s right. Someone kick me if it isn&#39;t.)

I thought this thread had died. But I see trumpet playa is back to teach us more&#33; yay&#33;

Originally posted by an&#045;kun@Apr 21 2005, 08:37 PM
I see some people don&#39;t knmow music theory that well. You only use diminished and augmented if the key doesn&#39;t usually have that note. You&#39;d only use augmented for say like a fifth G# for C major or C minor. Depends on the scale. For those of you who want the blue&#39;s scale in proper form it&#39;s those notes but it goes: tonic, Minor 3rd, perfect 4th, augmented 4th (or diminished 5th), perfect 5th, augmented 6th (or dimininished 7th), tonic (8th) (hope that&#39;s right. Someone kick me if it isn&#39;t.)

I thought this thread had died. But I see trumpet playa is back to teach us more&#33; yay&#33;
Anyway, you&#39;re right, but I found that with the 9th diminished and perfect, the 11th diminished, and the 13 perfect and diminished, you have EVERY NOTE except the major 7th. I find that this works for piano soloing, but not for much else... Although right you are about the blues scale, the major 3rd, and the perfect 7th as a transition between diminished seventh and tonic are very nice additions to the bluesy feel... without the major third it sounds rather minor... Try that if you will. BTW, I remembered the chords. you need a G and C in the lower hand (the perfect 7th and 3rd) with a block fourth on F (which is the 13th, the 9th, and 5th). THats Ab. then there&#39;s the Eb, which you augment the C to a Db (so sue me, it&#39;s really a C#). Then Db, which you lower the block fourth and the bottom LH note a whole step. so theres F, C, Eb, Ab, and Db. :sweatdrop: have fun&#33; I learn rather slow, so it may be a little while...

what&#39;s a block 4th?

Well, it gives it a nice sound when either the bass is playing the root, the higher instruments are playing a melody (or solo), or both&#33;

a block fourth, in case no one knows (why is this likely?) is a fourth of the bass note, then the fourth of that major scale, Then the fourth of THAT major scale... ex... C block fourth would be a C bass, with F, Bb, and Eb with the treble hand...


NEXT (quasi)-LESSON: The Major Blues Scale (and you thought you knew it&#33;)
The major blues scale for C is C, D, Eb, E, G, A, and C... so the root, 2nd and/or 9th, minor third, major third, fifth, 6th and/or 13th... so this can be used interchangeably with the minor blues... and the mixolydian (getting to that)... I find it is nice when played with a G7 in the C blues... the A minor chord gives a nice ring to it... I have a new piano now so I will probably be trying some new styles... It&#39;s really great... in fact, I&#39;ll attach me improving to one of the new styles... forgive if it&#39;s messy... for some reason, me and the rhythm got off by one 16th a little ways in... it IS improv, after all... try to hear when I&#39;m using major/minor blues... Mebbe I&#39;ll make a simpler one later...

Edit: Okay... this is simpler... less "grace-notey..." and remember... the Am chord is signature to the Major Blues...

NEXT LESSON: Mixolydian
The mixolydian scale is the third and final scale used in normal blues... and it&#39;s REALLY SIMPLE&#33;&#33;&#33; all it is IS the major scale with a flat 7th... I&#39;m sure this has been said before, but I&#39;m saying it again... try using that... I&#39;ll edit this and attach a file tomorrow mebbe... I&#39;m pressed for time right now...

Is that you playing in that midi? I like the bass ostinato thing. How do you play that? (I know the chords but it&#39;ll be nice to have the music sheet of the bass line to help us improvise with that)

HAHAHAHA&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; I have no clue&#33; See, the great thing about my piano is that it does accompianaments... bass lines with whatever I play... I have 136 of them I believe... I&#39;ll see if I can get you the music... though I don&#39;t really know how to post it on the internet... I might have to use paint and photobucket... I&#39;ll see what I can do...

*random fact* The Mixolydian mode is the same scale used by the bagpipes ;)

Watermelon Man Piano Part (http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y172/tinytim42/watermelons.jpg)
Sniff :cry: :DD it&#39;s so beautiful&#33; Now I&#39;ll work on getting the other two parts to you... this is one of my FAVORITE JAZZ SONGS is watermelon man, by Herbie Hancock... If you have a composing program, input these three parts and see how it turns out... The chord progression for soloing is... F7 (4) Bb7 (2) F7 (2) C7(1) Bb7 (1) C7 (1) Bb7 (1) C7 (1) Bb7 (1) F7 (2) Alright... 16 measures... It&#39;s a great song, and I&#39;ll work on getting some different instrumental solos out... Try soloing to it yourself if anybody has a keyboard... But remember... you can use major blues, minor blues, or the mixolydian interchangeably... So TRY IT&#33;&#33;&#33;

Edit:here&#39;s the bass part&#33;
Bass-o (http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y172/tinytim42/bass.jpg)

Showing up fine :)

Um... I just have the head on the midi... I&#39;m a bit disorganized right now, but I will add at least one solo to the mix later... just a couple minutes...

Edit: Here it is...

I&#39;ll post up an improvisation here when I can be bothered to connect my keyboard to my midi maker program. I&#39;d have to record all the stuff I&#39;ve saved on it first before I connect it up so I&#39;m not sure how long it&#39;ll take.

Edit: I&#39;ve just realised my keyboard has the same pattern thing that I asked for earlier&#33; Stupid An-kun&#33; I think I can figure it out from there so you don&#39;t have to go to any trouble finding the pattern for me but thanks anyway&#33;

an-kun, you must have one of the newer yamahas... man I love them... I think that one day I will post every single rhythm... the cool thing is that you can do fills, rits, and syncopated starting and stopping... and for every drum beat, there is two piano accompaniments... but I don&#39;t like the second piano-swing one... :D

another really useful scale is the Dorian scale... and I&#39;ll tell you it&#39;s just one flat more (or one sharp less) than the mixolydian... so two flats for C... this is used for M7 chords... gives a slow jazz feel to a song... also, some... (cue horrible evil music) HOMEWORK&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; <ick> fool around with the major, dorian, and mixolydian scales (or major, dominant, and minor 7th chords) in different keys and see if you can come up with something good... when you do, post it here, and I&#39;ll see if I can solo to it... also, you can try tri-tones when you play...
DORIAN: flat 3, flat 7 for any major scale.
TRI-TONES: basically, it&#39;s the root and augmented 4th... or the 3rd and the 7th of any dominant 7th... gives a MEAN feel to any jazz... though when soloing to blues if you play a melody note with the tritone (the 3rd and 7th), it sounds good... also, try the root and sharp 4th when soloing instead of just the sharp 4th... (or if you&#39;re really bold, try the flat 3rd, sharp 4th, and the root... things sound really BIG if you use more notes... that&#39;s good&#33;) TRY THIS AS WELL&#33;&#33;&#33;

You know, most of your posts here should be merged with the pinned Music Theory/Composition Tutorial thread =)

A recommendation: it&#39;d be nice to have all those scales (dorian, mixolydian, etc.) summarized together in a diagram/chart.

augh... I&#39;ll see what I can do...
C Ionian: C,D,E,F,G,A,B,C
C Mixolydian: C,D,E,F,G,A,Bb,C
C Dorian: C,D,Eb,F,G,A,Bb,C
C Phrygian: C, Db,Eb, F, G, Ab, Bb, C
C Lydian: C, D, E, F#, G, A, B, C
C Aeolian: C, D, Eb, F, G, Ab, Bb, C
C Locrian: C, Db, Eb, F, Gb, Ab, Bb, C
Basically, you have to remember that
Ionian= C on white keys,
Dorian= D on white keys
Phrygian= E " " "
Lydian= F " " "
Mixolydian= G " " "
Aeolian= A " " "
Locrian = B " " "
so remember that, and you can slowly transpose into the key you like... also the key siggy goes... I (abbrv.) M, D, A, P, Lo, Ly... with 0,1,2,3,4,5,6, flats... <brain cramp> I hope that helps... I could go into more patterns, but I WON&#39;T&#33;&#33;&#33; X_X
Edit: I don&#39;t really think this applies to everybody... it&#39;s just jazz musicians... perhaps making it a sticky of its own would be better...

Originally posted by Al@May 22 2005, 04:51 AM
You know, most of your posts here should be merged with the pinned Music Theory/Composition Tutorial thread =)

A recommendation: it&#39;d be nice to have all those scales (dorian, mixolydian, etc.) summarized together in a diagram/chart.
No I think this shouldn&#39;t be merged because improvisation is more skill than theory. If you want Al then copy the theory to the theory thread but keep this separate from it. thanks

Okay what about the folks on here that arent well versed in theory but want to get into improvising?

Before you get into that you should talk about the blues scales and progressions maybe?

yer that&#39;s already been done in the previous pages.

:unsure: Why is there a scream in your part 2 of 6 flights of fancy in the middle?

Can you give us some advice more on the II-V7-I progressions and possibly The I Got Rythmn changes?