I recently acquired a clarinet. As I don't have any teachers, I'll be learning to play by myself. Before I start practicing I want to have a decent understanding of the instrument. How do you develop good technique and avoid bad habits?

Hmmm...difficult question as generally things get learnt as you go along, but some basics are easy.

For care of the instrument, always remember to take the reed off and put it in a reed holder, or else they tend to get warped and not work properly. Using cork grease regularly is a good idea, or it will be difficult to put the instument together as it will get stiff. Clean the clarinet regularly or it (obviously) gets filled with spit and don't sound so good. Plus, if you get used to cleaning it regularly it should just become a habit.

Hmmm....preuming you already know embouchure and everything. Anyway, obviously a good idea to sit fairly straight when you're gonna practice. Fingers shouldn't be stiff, and should be slightly bent over the keys.

The mouthpieces of clarinets are really delicate, so if the instrument isn't in it's case, make sure it's no-where it can roll off (yeah...common sense, but something I learnt from experience :doh: )

Well, this may well be nothing like what you actually wanted to know, but I'm sure some other clarinetists will post with stuff you DO want to!

if it's wooden, don't take it out in winter, come back, and start playing it; it'll expand from the inside and crack.

Did you ever get that Lyons 'C' Clarinet or a normal one?

@ ran tan & Sinbios: Thanks.

@ Al: I got Mr. Lyons' C clarinet ^^


I'm completely new to reeds. What can I do to build a good embouchure? Do you know of any good clarinet/reed web resources or others?

I don't so much want to think of playing clarinet as playing an instrument -- I need a good technique so that I can remove myself from thinking in the manner of the instrument and play purely to express my ideas.

Any advice/suggestion is welcome! :neko:

I began back when school was starting but I've learned alot. Well, one thing as you play you should try and avoid not counting in your mind--well I use to not do that because I didn't remember the keys like I do now back then but since I have memorized them I'm slowly getting into the habit of counting in my head--but the only time I stop counting is when I have to go over the break :unsure: ...--, but its good to first practice the beat of a song by clapping so then you can get the beat in your head so you wouldn't have to pause thinking if its the correct rythm.

You should keep your fingers close to the keys so you can press them and not be one beat behind. It also gives the connecting feeling despite the fact that the notes are different or your tounging.

To avoid getting a squeek out from your clarinet or a sound out of tune etc, cover the holes.

When you get into the clarinet more--once you go over the break I was told that your embrochure should get tighter the higher you go. (just don't kill that little reed of yours)

For a good embouchure--a bit hard...(well for me...), your lower lip has to be over your bottom teeth, when you do this don't put the whole mouth piece on your lower lip, have it half an inch/quarter of an inch a little less on your lower lip. Then don't bite on the clarinet when your do the next part--softly/lightly put your top teeth on the top of the mouth piece, then of a word like hee that would would tighten the corners of your mouth.

When you go over the first and second break (sorryn if you don't know them--the first break is the basic keys that you learn before turning to the first break, but with the register key--the key above the f. The second break...a bit complicated and MUCH harder...((for me at least...can't play a note from that only the first break...but never the second :cry: )) it doesn't include a few keys...which I don't understand at all and it confuses me...but I'm still gonna kill myself if I don't play it by the end of feb or march X_X !) you'll have have lots of air so you'll have to inhale deeply and have some breathing excersises maybe. Also, get to play the basic keys and low notes first--it will build up your air and so when you come around to play the second break and first it may be a bit easier--.

I got help on how to tune my instrument from someone else on another site a few days ago, I hope this may help.

Say you have a flat sound, pull the horn of your clarinet out a bit.

If you have a sharp sound then you pull the barrel out a bit.

It's not fun to think of a clarinet just as an instrument that just makes sound and such, music pulls you in so once you get around the basics at the least it would make you express your feelings and ideas more--I myself use to not enjoy the clarinet because before I began playing it I didn't appreciate music much, but now it just pulls me out of the world and into my own.

^^ I hope I helped you, I'm a beginner still so yeah... :sweatdrop:
-Chihiro

Well reeds for beginners you cant go wrong with Rico's or Rico Royales they give the best sound and are easy to use for someone starting out. Once you get comfortable witht the clarinet there are a plethora of reeds to try out there most go for the Vandorens but i dont suggest those for beginners since they're cut a bit thicker than normal reeds.

Check out this page http://www.drdowningmusic.com/images/Clarinet/Thumb.jpg

It gives a good idea for comfortable hand placement. Also take a look at his emboucher a good way to see if your doing it right is to play in front of a mirror.

Chihiro & MHHornfreak, thanks for the advice!


Originally posted by ChihiroTsukiyamaha
It's not fun to think of a clarinet just as an instrument that just makes sound and such ...
Ah, gomen. Chihiro, that's not what I meant(or are we saying the same thing? ^^ ) . I love the timbre of a clarinet, and I really want to play it. However, I don't want to get caught up in thinking about what is possible to play or key fingerings and such (all the niggles of learning an instrument). To me, stuff like that inhibits creativity. I just want to make music! So that's why I need a good technique. ^.^

All the little details of playing the clarinet, even though you say they inhibit creativity, become second nature like breathing after a while. As for reeds, Vandorens are okay to start on. Use 2 1/2 strength reeds at the beginning. They'll last about two weeks each if you're not careful. When you're putting the reed on, put the ligature on first then the reed. It's a good habit to get into because then you can't accidentally slice the reed. If you can, get a strap to wrap around your case for extra protection against the lock failing...I know from experience.

As for playing, when you keep your fingers bent over the keys, just imagine you're holding a tennis ball or something. Float your left pinkey over the E/B key and your right pinky floating over the F/C key. If you always know where your pinky is....you won't have trouble finding the right key. When you're tounging the reed, use only the tip of your tounge. Using more than that slows you down and creates an ugly tone between notes.
A MAJOR bad habit is to slack your embrochure. Keep it tight but don't choke your tone. Slacked embrochure is for saxes.
To warm-up:
Long tones- Play the note for 8 beats at 60-70 speed. Start on ledger line C...go chromatically down the horn to F.
Tounging-Play after longtones. You play these notes-q,q,e,e,e,e,s,s,s,s,s,s,s,s,h
q quarter note
e eigth note
s sixteenth note
h half note
Slurs-Do this once you've learned going over the break...It'll greatly improve any problems with hesitation on the break...I'll send sheet music of it to you on AIM if I can.
Arpeggios-These warm you up for fingering fast and tounging fast as well.

If you can get hold of an Essential Elements 2000 book, I suggest you do so. Get the yellow borered book first...then the red when you think you're ready...then the green.

If you want to imagine what a good embrochure is like, imagine what toothless characters look like in cartoons. Their lips are curled in. ONLY curl your bottom lip though on the clarinet.

I hope that covers everything you need for now on clarinet(except for the sheets I haven't sent you). If you need anything else...just contact me on AIM or via email. I'd like to play some of the pieces that you make. ^_^

Originally posted by Plod@Feb 20 2005, 01:32 AM
All the little details of playing the clarinet, even though you say they inhibit creativity, become second nature like breathing after a while.
I'm doing a poor job of explaining myself >>
Having a good technique, that is second nature, is just what I want to develope! ^.^

Plod, thanks for all the advice!!
I'm pretty busy for next few days, but I'd like to chat with you when there's a chance.

Originally posted by Jujemu+Feb 16 2005, 05:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jujemu @ Feb 16 2005, 05:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Chihiro & MHHornfreak, thanks for the advice&#33;

<!--QuoteBegin-ChihiroTsukiyamaha
It&#39;s not fun to think of a clarinet just as an instrument that just makes sound and such ...
Ah, gomen. Chihiro, that&#39;s not what I meant(or are we saying the same thing? ^^ ) . I love the timbre of a clarinet, and I really want to play it. However, I don&#39;t want to get caught up in thinking about what is possible to play or key fingerings and such (all the niggles of learning an instrument). To me, stuff like that inhibits creativity. I just want to make music&#33; So that&#39;s why I need a good technique. ^.^ [/b][/quote]
eh~? No I was agreeing with you ^_^&#33; (No one ever understands me :D so its okay) I agree getting caught up with fingerings and beats and all that other stuff isn&#39;t fun. I&#39;m not sure if I have said this but start the song out very slowly, get faster each time you play it until you reach the correct tempo, I think once you reach the correct tempo you&#39;ll get it ^^. (I&#39;ve never done that...I wish I started out slowly back when we were using beginning books...now that time has flid and all the clarinets will never pick me as section leader =_=&#33; I wanted to be section leader...would be very fun...&#33; They all think I suck because back then I had stage fright ::screams:: now I&#39;ll have to slip around trying to make the teachers realize that I can play good now ((its not fun being in the second row...I don&#39;t like it XD&#33;) But I don&#39;t like boasting at all I just want to be critiscized on how I play if I play something wrong (even though I have a private teacher) or if my instrument is out of tune and such those are mainly the reasons why I want to get into the front or atleast be able to be asked to play and be told about what I should do.

My I&#39;ve babled on and on&#33; T_T&#33;

plod-san sankyuuu (for the PM and also on this forum ^^)&#33;&#33; I think i&#39;ve been tounging with more than the tip of my tongue. I think I heard a flute player doing an appreigo once I can&#39;t do those well because of my tounging :cries:

Oooh I have the essential book~::dances:: o_o;; few weeks ago I wondered if the C.D would help but it only went up to I think Ode To Joy and thats all either that or it was New World symphony. I screamed at the C.D (yes I screamed at it...) it was when I was confused with going over the first (er second&#33;?) break on the clarinet. Hmm...

I&#39;m confused whats a chord...? ::dies of confusion::

I&#39;m hoping to succeed of having a good technique in tounging and getting notes very quickly. Today while we were playing a song called Crater Lake Overture (don&#39;t attack me thinking I&#39;m in seventh or eighth grade or in high school or college I&#39;m in a beginning middle school band so don&#39;t kill me ::cries:: ), the clarinets were all wrong when we suddenly changes tempo and timing (it became moderato and the timing became 3/4) when we were sluring on the notes: D, C, A the younger director (yes two directors even i don&#39;t know why&#33;) of our band took out her clarinet (she was a clarinet major =D) and she began to play it herself, I realized we clarinets were treating the quarter notes like eigth notes, since I&#39;ve been playing it that way on the slur It takes a while to get use to and we are having our next band concert in two weeks @_@

hmm something slipped my mind...Oh&#33; Thats right, vandoren reeds only last for that long...? Mines lasted for normally....I don&#39;t count o_o&#33; I&#39;m thinking of buying new reeds, I wanted my father to buy Michi lurie (right?) reeds but they say that don&#39;t have any and give him vandoren reeds instead. I&#39;ve become confused with this.

Normally, on my clarinet I put the reed on first...something that has confused me dearly is as I watched my director put her clarinet ligerature on she put the screwed part on the back, I always thought it must be on the reed but it wasn&#39;t...@_@.

Oh god I&#39;m asking for help on my own problems when your the one who&#39;d be needing help, Jujemu-san&#33;&#33; Wahhhh gomen&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; :mellow: :unsure: :( :/ :crybaby: :cry:

Hmm...::goes back to help:: well, I have a book my private teacher has given me called, "My first Klose" it doesn&#39;t explain trills and such (except for fingerings and advice) but then its good help for articulation and sluring and such, I often try and practice it, if you can find the book you should buy it, it would help on sluring and articulation. (its purple)

sorry I began to talk about my problems with the clarinet :cries:
-Chihiro

one thing i get told alot is: learn ur alternate fingerings for clarinets...cuz those can be *quite* a hassel if u don&#39;t learn them...


also a question..i can&#39;t seem to double/triple tongue on the clarinet..anyone wanna help me? thanks

Originally posted by hao903_themadman001@Feb 24 2005, 06:09 AM
one thing i get told alot is: learn ur alternate fingerings for clarinets...cuz those can be *quite* a hassel if u don&#39;t learn them...


also a question..i can&#39;t seem to double/triple tongue on the clarinet..anyone wanna help me? thanks
ah yes alternate fingerings should be learned, I tried doing the common fingerings for B natural on the second/first break and it didn&#39;t work out too well. ^^; what freaked me out is when I asked my band director she paused for a second after I asked if alternate fingerings were alright then when she was checking if our fingering was correct she paused for another second and said, "yes that fingering is okay" are alternate fingers bad&#33;? ::screams:: They seem like an easier wait to smooth things out and it seems quicker to get to that key especially when your doing allegro and all the fast tempos it&#39;s much easier for me ^^; hehe.

-Chihiro

Originally posted by hao903_themadman001@Feb 24 2005, 06:09 AM
one thing i get told alot is: learn ur alternate fingerings for clarinets...cuz those can be *quite* a hassel if u don&#39;t learn them...


also a question..i can&#39;t seem to double/triple tongue on the clarinet..anyone wanna help me? thanks
For the double and triple tongue tecnique it&#39;s more like making a "teh" sound with the instrument. "teh" teh" teh" then changing it to "teh keh" "Teh keh" "teh keh"
then "teh key tah".

I could be wrong i have to look at my books again @_@

Hornfreak is right, it&#39;s t-k-t-k-t-k for double tounging. I don&#39;t know what triple tounging is though, although Hornfreak seems to be right. Alternate fingerings should be used when you can&#39;t instantly move from one note to the next. Moving from any pinky key to pinky key requires alternate fingerings. I prefer the left side for my standard E/B & F#/C# and right side for my standard F/C. Also, you can use alternate fingerings to achieve better tone. For the Bb right before the break, instead of pushing the register key, use the second side/trill key from the top. This is especially useful in a song like Carol of the Bells(or whatever you call it). Also, if you&#39;re playing in a key signature like Ab and you don&#39;t wanna use the banana* key for Eb/Bb, finger a regular E, then put your right index finger down...it&#39;s an Eb&#33;

extra note: if you think slow songs are boring, practice longtones until your face has been through every color of the rainbow, everyday, and soon you&#39;ll sound so good on slow songs that you&#39;ll think they&#39;re awesome(or not...still longtones improves your tone). Have you noticed that notes without the register key sound airy or rumbly? Longtones fix that(I still have yet to see my results). Also, work on the the smaller details once you have the big things down. Big details would be notes, rhythms, perhaps some alternate fingerings...that stuff. Smaller things would be like style(is it a march or a chorale?), dynamics(volume...correct dynamics give the song shape), and other stuff that I can&#39;t think of now. As a general rule, if no dynamics are marked, crescendo when going up or building to the climax, and decrescendo when going down or going away from the climax.

Don&#39;t forget posture&#33; My first band director had an acronym to describe the steps, but I forgot it :heh: Sit up straight, feet on the floor, don&#39;t slack your arms, and keep your back AWAY from the back of the chair. I don&#39;t do this, but I guess you could pretend you&#39;re on a stool and you&#39;ll fall down if you slouch.

Don&#39;t take all my advice all at once...Take it easy and slowly. If you can&#39;t read music yet, spend about two weeks clapping to simple rhythms.

*banana: delicious fruit; also used to describe the two long slender keys on the clarinet...does not include C#/G#.
Most importantly, set goals and plan to reach them. Perform for others. If you don&#39;t perform, you&#39;re missing the best part. Parents, friends, assemblies, contests...It doesn&#39;t matter where, but just do it.
A performance in spring and in winter is reasonable I guess. The more the better, but be in your best shape. Go to contests and audition for honor groups if you can...or be the best soloist you can be.

If you&#39;re practicing, only practice the things you can&#39;t do. It&#39;s pointless and a waste of time to practice what you can do perfectly. My eyes are hurting from too much tv. If you have anymore questions, ask away.

Heheh longtones those are so boring but they are how you strengthen your chops.

I&#39;m more of a sax player but i&#39;m a clarinet player as well.

I checked my book and it said

Teh-Keh, Teh-Keh etc. for double tonguing

Teh-Keh-Teh, Teh-Keh-Teh etc. for the triple tonguing

"Double tonguing consists of two movements: one is simular to regular tonguing which would be the front area of the tongue stroking the reed as in "teh". Immediately following this initial attack, the hump portion abruptly rises up striking the roof of the oral cavity which in turn stops he airflow from the larynx. This gives the aural appearance of a second tongued note. The feeling in the mouth for the second stroke is like saying any of the sounds, keh or kuh. Another way to approximate this feeling is close to the sensation of coughing. The double tongue sequence sounds like teh-keh or tuh-kuh repeated rapidly. Triple tonguing combines double tonguing into triplet combinations, teh-keh-teh followed by keh-teh-keh. Both Techniques are a matter of timing and slow practice can be combined in all ways. It isd important to realize how the various elements of tongue and reed placement are related to each other, so that one becomes aware of the many varieties of articulation available. The point is to experiment with all the possibilities in order that a flexible approach to, and a heightened sensitivity of the relationships are achieved for musical results."

taken from a David Liebman book

Originally posted by MHHornfreak@Feb 27 2005, 08:37 AM
Heheh longtones those are so boring but they are how you strengthen your chops.

I&#39;m more of a sax player but i&#39;m a clarinet player as well.

I checked my book and it said

Teh-Keh, Teh-Keh etc. for double tonguing

Teh-Keh-Teh, Teh-Keh-Teh etc. for the triple tonguing

"Double tonguing consists of two movements: one is simular to regular tonguing which would be the front area of the tongue stroking the reed as in "teh". Immediately following this initial attack, the hump portion abruptly rises up striking the roof of the oral cavity which in turn stops he airflow from the larynx. This gives the aural appearance of a second tongued note. The feeling in the mouth for the second stroke is like saying any of the sounds, keh or kuh. Another way to approximate this feeling is close to the sensation of coughing. The double tongue sequence sounds like teh-keh or tuh-kuh repeated rapidly. Triple tonguing combines double tonguing into triplet combinations, teh-keh-teh followed by keh-teh-keh. Both Techniques are a matter of timing and slow practice can be combined in all ways. It isd important to realize how the various elements of tongue and reed placement are related to each other, so that one becomes aware of the many varieties of articulation available. The point is to experiment with all the possibilities in order that a flexible approach to, and a heightened sensitivity of the relationships are achieved for musical results."

taken from a David Liebman book
er, that only works for brass instruments. double tongues don&#39;t work with reeds.

It works for saxophones that i&#39;m sure of since that was writen by David Liebman in Developing a Personal Saxophone Sound. I use the same method for clarinet so it does work for woodwinds.

Originally posted by ChihiroTsukiyamaha
Oh god I&#39;m asking for help on my own problems when your the one who&#39;d be needing help, Jujemu-san&#33;&#33; Wahhhh gomen&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;
Sounds like you could use some help, too, yes? That&#39;s okay -- everyone can benefit&#33;&#33;&#33; (^ o ^) ha hah ha

Today I&#39;m going to begin practicing&#33; Thank you so much everyone for all the advice&#33;&#33;

Originally posted by Jujemu+Mar 3 2005, 05:15 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jujemu @ Mar 3 2005, 05:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-ChihiroTsukiyamaha
Oh god I&#39;m asking for help on my own problems when your the one who&#39;d be needing help, Jujemu-san&#33;&#33; Wahhhh gomen&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;
Sounds like you could use some help, too, yes? That&#39;s okay -- everyone can benefit&#33;&#33;&#33; (^ o ^) ha hah ha

Today I&#39;m going to begin practicing&#33; Thank you so much everyone for all the advice&#33;&#33; [/b][/quote]
yes indeed I do need help hehe...btw, your welcome&#33;

not sure if I said this...but this helped me alot on new fingerings and new techniques and other stuff; if you like video games or anime, you can take a look around ichigos. I know only three songs that have the clarinet (the others i do not play because I cannot play trills at the moment) here; sakura taisen (the opening) FF12 (Sarutabaruta) and Gensui series (the Small forest road). These motivate me to learn more keys, how to get to notes quicker, how to tongue, how to use my air wisely, just anything about technque and new terms (which I&#39;m in need of...need...terms @_@) and it also gives me chances to express feelings because well, now I&#39;m playing the song for fun not for band (though I can do that with my band music&#33;) so I can mess up if I&#39;m angry, go slowly if I&#39;m sad, make it a happy tune when I&#39;m happy. Also, I believe someone around here gave a link to a site with a bunch of FF music (and they include the clarinet&#33;&#33;), so if you like the m usic (I idolize Nobuo Uematsu-sama&#33; ^_^ love his work, especially Vamo Alla Flamenco...love the sudden tempo change it takes at the end....so surprising...^^&#33;&#33;&#33;) I&#39;m sure it&#39;ll help, motivate, teach and let you express feelings. From that Final fantasy site, I got many final fantasy songs for the clarinet...and it has made my private teacher tell me that maybe by the end of the year I could be playing like an eighth grader which is very good encouragement for me because I&#39;d like to be in the wind ensemble for seventh grade next year, but I have to say, play with friends too..lucky you don&#39;t have my friends on friday we were playing together and she tricked me numerous times&#33;&#33;&#33; @_@ sheesh and the day before a concert...can&#39;t believe her...hehe

If you need any more help PM me&#33; =D
-miyoko

do you want a fingering sheet and scale chart? =P...

Yes. .&#39;P

I&#39;ve looked at pictures of a Lyon&#39;s C Clarinet and it looks very strange to say the least. I don&#39;t think a normal fingering chart would work for you. Didn&#39;t yours come with a chart?

Your right&#33; Mr. Lyons&#39; C Clarinet uses what is called "basic Boehm" fingering. Essentially, the fingering is the same to the a traditional clarinet, save repeated keys. However, I don&#39;t know the traditional Boehm system fully, so I&#39;d still like to view a chart; even if such knowledge doesn&#39;t apply directly to my instrument I&#39;m sure I&#39;ll find a use for it.

Yeah, I got a chart with my Lyons C Clarinet. C:

The standard Boehm system on a regular clarinet has duplicate keys for a reason. Sometimes, going from one note to another is impossible without getting some sort of unintended grace note or hiccup in between the two. An example is going from C to Eb. Whether it&#39;s low C or the one in the next octave, going to Eb requires that you use an alternate fingering. I assume the keys taken out were the ones that would give you the hiccup. I&#39;d like to see the chart for your clarinet. I couldn&#39;t get a very good look from the pictures on the web.

If you ever think of switching to normal clarinet, then check if your local music store allows you to try out instruments before you buy them. You&#39;ll just need your own mouthpiece. If the Lyons clarinet mouthpiece is integrated...then you&#39;re in a tight spot. Mouthpieces can cost around &#036;85. Also, you could try playing a friend&#39;s clarinet if they let you. Just have your own mouthpiece. ^_^ If you&#39;ve got an unintegrated mouthpiece(it&#39;s detatchable from the instrument), then you&#39;re all set for when you think of switching.

I suggest you master your Lyons first though. If you&#39;re going to play together with some friends, make sure they use a C clarinet also, or that your notes are transposed correctly.

http://www.biochem.purdue.edu/~swihart/bbfinger.htm
There&#39;s a chart for a normal clarinet(any key).

1) don&#39;t ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever (times a million) eat sweets...or just don&#39;t eat before you play and leave it out, why? you&#39;ll have to live with your instrument, it&#39;s expensive, she/he/it has feelings and once there was a kid who was trying to play his clarinet and it sounded like I do when I sing (yes I sing really badly) his teacher checked his instrument there were ants lining the edges and stuck in the pads.

2) if it&#39;s wood buy a humidifier

3) don&#39;t chew on the reed

4) cover the holes completely

5) buy a stand, they range to about 5 bucks to like 25...I bought my flute stand for &#036;24 and my picc for &#036;27

oh and triple tounging (sp?) is t-d-k-t-d-k wanna get it faster? what a friend of mine did (trumpet) was whenever he took a step he said a triple...mmhmm

work hard and good luck and soon enough you won&#39;t think that blowing, fingering and tounging are bad in anyway hahaha *cough*...yea...:heh:

TIP: if doing a hard key change look for alternate fingerings
TIP: try playing lying down it&#39;ll help you breath with your diaphragm (your shoulders aren&#39;t supposed to go up and down when you play)
TIP: back straight, feet on floor (very difficult for me...I&#39;m short ;_;), sit on the edge of the chair
TIP: bring your stand up
TIP: don&#39;t cross your legs
TIP: don&#39;t be afraid to ask for help or keep repeating a hard part in music over and over

Did anyone mention not to puff your cheeks? I did it for a year when I first started playing the clarinet. ^^;;

where do i send the chart to? o.o and sorry i dont have a place to scan it so its just a picture but you can still see clearly =3