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Gnomish
May 27th, 2004, 02:22 am
Am I correct in thinking that a cadence is a resolution from V - I? If so, why is it that many baroque cadences contain sharps in the V chord?

Moebius
May 27th, 2004, 03:29 am
There are many different cadences.. V-I is but one of them. They're supposed to be at the end of each phrase (usually 4 bars long).

They're not Baroque cadences, but cadences in the minor key. In the harmonic minor key the 7th degree of the scale is raised by a semitone. Hence the V has a sharp in it.

Gnomish
May 27th, 2004, 04:17 am
Ah, ok. :) Thanks... Should the END of the cadence be at the 5th bar or a phrase? (IE 4 bars of notes then a 5th bar of the resolved I chord) Or should the cadence be in the middle of the 4th bar?

Although, yes, there are other forms of cadences (deceptive, etc.), I was referring to the Perfect (Full) Cadence.

Btw, so you're saying that the reason the # is there is because it's really a V7 to an i?

Moebius
May 27th, 2004, 05:16 am
The cadence should be part of the phrase. That means it should be before the 5th bar, if your phrase is 4 bars long. The I chord should ideally be placed on a strong beat in the bar. I suggest that you place the I chord on the first beat of the 4th bar.

By saying the 7th degree of the scale, I meant the scale, not the interval from the root of the dominant chord. For example in A minor the V chord has the notes E, G# and B. The G# is the 7th degree of the A minor harmonic scale.

That is not to say that a v (minor) chord does not exist. Sometimes the leading note is not raised by a semitone (ie, when the melody is descending).

For more on cadences and music theory in general:

http://www.smu.edu/totw/toc.htm

Gnomish
May 27th, 2004, 05:22 am
Is it just me or are cadences FREAKISHLY difficult to work into certain time sigs? (6/8, 9/8, 3/4, 5/4, etc.)

Moebius
May 27th, 2004, 05:31 am
It's not that difficult actually ^^;;

For compound time signatures like 6/8 and 9/8 there will be three quavers in every beat. You know that the strongest beat for 6/8 is on the 1st beat. So you place your tonic chord on the first beat (the first quaver, but since it's the final note of the phrase, you should prolong it to perhaps a dotted crochet or even a dotted minim). As for the V chord, you can either place it on the final quaver of the preceeding bar, or the first quaver of the final beat of the preceeding bar, or even the first beat -- it's all up to your creativity. Sorry that it sounds confusing, but it's actually easier than it seems. Try looking at the scores of some classical compositions with these time signatures, the possibilities are actually quite limitless -- and with creativity you will do it well.

For 5/4 the concept is still pretty much the same, the strong beats are beat 1 and beat 4.

Gnomish
May 27th, 2004, 05:34 am
Wow! You're a genious on theory. :) I know a lot about fugue/canon anatomy and some basic chord info, thanks to piano theory, but cadences is something I never understood until now. :)

Moebius
May 27th, 2004, 05:37 am
No problem ^^;; I'm glad to help.

Knowledge on cadences is very important in composition... you should know about them.

Gnomish
May 27th, 2004, 05:40 am
Indeed. One more question, not really about cadences, but... I have a burning question to ask!

Are you familiar with Bach's The Art of Fugue (Kunst der Fuge)? I have a question about the first Contrapunctus...

Moebius
May 27th, 2004, 06:07 am
I'm not familiar with that, but what's the question, anyway?

EDIT: BTW, I think there'll be only room left for one more question, because apparently we're supposed to PM each other in conversations like this. I feel that this topic should be left on for others' who want to know about cadences, but anyway, apologies to the moderators.

Gnomish
May 27th, 2004, 06:13 am
Well, in the first "simple" fugue of Bach's most renowned work, it is in the key of D minor, yet at the end, it ends on a D Major chord, finally the bass part finishing on an F#... do you know why this? I've noticed that with a lot of keyboard music from 1550-1750, many times it almost sounds like it ends on an unresolved chord, even though it isn't, really... why do many of these songs choose to end the piece on the middle note of the triad, and often in a major key? It makes it sound kind of weird, but complete, still, in a way. If you don't know what I mean, I can post a midi of it. :)

Edit: Here's the MIDI -

Moebius
May 27th, 2004, 06:23 am
Oh, that is related to cadences. It's very common in Baroque/Classical practice, and it's called Tierce de Picardy or the Picardy third. I do not know the reason why composers of that era chose to use that, but it's probably irrelevant anyway. In my opinion, it is a form of mode mixture, although some people might disagree. It sounds complete because in the cadence, the V chord in the minor key is actually the same with the V chord in the parallel major (that means the major key on the same root note. eg. A minor and A major are parallel). That's why it sounds complete -- it sounds like a cadence in the parallel major.

In the work you mentioned, I'll just assume it's a coda, the final bars after what I call the actual ending, which has a perfect authentic cadence (V-I cadence where the melody stops on the tonic), and that it's supposed to sound the way you described. Bach did that in another fugue.

Gnomish
May 27th, 2004, 06:27 am
Thanks for all your assistance! :) ( Sorry, mods... :doh: )