Sometimes, we feel like we have no living connections to this world, and that we dont deserve to live in this world. Tell us about the time where you thought about suicide, how you evaded it, what caused it, why did you wanted to suicide, and discuss about it. Tell us what you think about suicide, and what should be done with it.

I would start the discussion, but I want to sleep. So the next person will start.

I have never wanted to kill myself, the closest was wanting to ram my head through a wall with frustration. I have thought about what people would be like if I wasn't there to interfere, but its pretty easy for me to get over. With good friends and a caring family, you can get through anything. Trusting yourself to make decisions that keep your life going is a good idea, but there needs to be more help for people. What do all of you reckon?

the cause: my own low self-esteem

eh.. i got over it. i'm pretty satisfied with life now. i still think about it now and then. but is it still considered "suicide" if you just think it'd be nice to die? i think that a lot but i dont want to kill myself.

everyone thinks like that now and again

I tried it a few months ago, and when it didn't happen i realised how selfish i was being. There are several people who die every day through poverty or abuse and when you get someone like me who was actually in the position when i chose to die, then i think that personally i was being extremely selfish- even more because of all the other people i would upset by doing it.

I know we're supposed to discuss about it, but im trying to forget that part of my life: i still dont feel i have any living connections to the world, but i deal with it in other ways.

i was seriously considering it 2 or 3 years back in these depressive moods, but like thorn, decided it was too selfish. I mean, like eh, no big deal if i left the world, but the sorrow i felt i would have escaped, would be magnified a dozen times in my family and friends. Especially to my grandmom, because my granddad and uncle passed away within 2 years of each other, and she's not a very strong person.

And also, i guess it's kind of weak to be throwing yourself off the building for no other reason, than because you momentarily don't feel happy with life. So yea, i'm still alive. ^_^ And learning to be more relaxed, so i won't have to feel that i'm living on just for the sake of others. :P

I think that suicide needs to be thought of more seriously in society, and people need to think of other things to help them along in life. Other than ending it.

I think about suicide all the time. I wouldn`t really call it evading, but I simply don`t do it because....well...I find handling my life more interesting, then a dull death. Anyways, I really do not care. If people are going to commit suicide, let them. We will all die some day. If the person wants to commit suicide, maybe it is the best thing for that person. Personally, though, I would advise against it. If a person has the courage to commit suicide maybe they should take that courage and apply it to life. Then again, suicide can also be a good means to end pain.

That is a bad philosiphy! there aer much better ways to vent pain, and suicide should be left out of lives. If they were able to move their pain and help others with the same kind of pain, then there already is a good use for their life. if you are thinking of suicide, get some help, talk to people, do anything you can to help yourself!

sometimes help isnt the answer. althoug its a good recommendation, mystery_editor, some ppl, like nightmare or me have to find their own answers in life. just sticking them at a therapist isnt gonna do much, in some situations.

personnaly i dont care about my life. if my arm got cut bad and started gushing blood id look at it, stare for a few seconds and put my hand on the woud to stop it but why would i car if i died? most ppl care more about my life than i do. -_-

[QUOTE]Then again, suicide can also be a good means to end pain. (Posted on Jun 26 2005, 12:10 PM by nightmare )


Taking the easy way out eh? This philosophy of urs is just plain wrong.

I have never thought about committing suicide, but I have always known that I can kill myself anytime. I can easily just hold one of my knives up to my with ease (and I have tried it, just to see if I'd get any tension...).

The only thing preventing that is, well...:

For what reasons are there for killing yourself? There's a whole life ahead, and we might as well have the best of it. Sure, you won't be able to do everything you want to, but just try it. There is no use in killing yourself, especially when you never know what's 'on the other side.' :/

Think about it whenever you think about killing yourself. I thought about life (and death) many times, and I keep getting more questions and fewer answers, but you might as well take a chance at life before death. You never know what will happen later in life, but why not find out? :think:

I have more to say on the subject, but I'll end it here. -_-

I thought about suicide at one point in my life, but I have never tried to commit. I was feeling depressed (but it wasn't severe depression). I felt alone, like there really was no place for me in this world, and felt like there's no point in living- what purpose is there in life?

I never tried to commit suicide because... well, I gave it a lot of thought. Then again, I give everything a lot of thought, so I guess that's good thing... Suicide is selfish. It'll just hurt those who do care about you.

I later realised in my life that even if life's purpose isn't always clear, just live. I don't know what else to say. I really feel sorry people that have commited suicide, though. Just a few months ago, there was a guy at my school (in grade 12) that commited sucide because he felt depressed since his girlfriend left him. I really pity those that take their own lives for stupid reasons like that.

Well, what else to say? I guess the main point is: suicide is NOT the answer to ending your problems. It's selfish and... NOT good. That's all I can say.

[QUOTE]Then again, suicide can also be a good means to end pain. (Posted on Jun 26 2005, 12:10 PM by nightmare )


Taking the easy way out eh? This philosophy of urs is just plain wrong.
i've heard of others who said that suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem, but that could not be the case. Some people would suicide because of different reasons besides depression. I must agree that suicide CAN also be a good means to end pain.

If you ever thought about it in the big picture, imagine someone who was kept in the dark for their lifetime working like slaves. Noone can save them (far away from the city, works in a farm), and if they choose suicide, that would be the best way. Sometimes suicide is the only way out from hopeless situations.

The problem though, is that people today believe that "hopeless situations" is soo easily achieved just by being depressed.

I just love people who always want to do things the hard way. And what IS wrong with taking the easy way out? Who cares if a person does not want to do things the hard way. I personally like taking the easy way out, though you seem to prefir taking the hard way.

If you are in pain, horrible pain, and there is no solution, why not? It ends the pain, and you feel nothing. The example Hiei provided is just one of those situations. I am so tired of people saying `just give it time, and it will pass.` Because you know what? What if it doesn`t pass? What if the pain never stops? For simple social problems, that is something that can pass in time, or should be given a chance. But for something like living in jail for life, being beaten by other jail mates, that is a good oppurtunity for suicide.

What is life about? Life is about you. Everyday. You go to sleep because you need to rest. You eat for you, because you are hungry. You drink, when you are thirsty. You spend time with friends, because it helps you feel better. You watch TV because it amuses you. Suicide is just one of those things you do for you, to end something, or fufill something. If suicide is selfish, so is easting and drinking.

Originally posted by Nightmare@Jun 26 2005, 11:51 PM
If suicide is selfish, so is eating and drinking.
But nobody is going to bawl their hearts out because you ate popcorn. -_- By selfish i guess it means unintentionally or intentionally hurting others for your own sake, that is to escape from your own pain.

I find nothing wrong with suicide, but If you can fix the problem and stop it WITH THE ATEMPTED SUICIDER BEING HAPPY AT THE SAME TIME, more power to you. Life will end sooner or later, and for some its sooner, not later.

[QUOTE]But for something like living in jail for life, being beaten by other jail mates, that is a good oppurtunity for suicide. (by Nightmare @ Jun 26 2005, 11:51 PM)


well, he/she should have expected situation like this will occur. Its his/her own doing that he/she ends up in jail for life, so its alright for him/her to run away from responsibilities by taking the easy way out?

I don't believe in suicide... I never even want to think of myself commiting it... But if i ever wanted to, all i would have to think of is:

(A) suicide is painful, and i can't stand pain...

(B ) suicide is not always succesful, so you wasted all that pain and suffering for nothing. Also, if your suicide doesn't succeed, you could be left in a vegetative state for the rest of your life. That would be hell for me... never getting to accomplish my dreams, 'cause i was a jackass once...

Eating a lot of painkillers or sleeping pills will kill you but you won't feel it, so your arguments are kinda stupid. Just keep thinking you don't want it, the will to live is a better reason to be alive than the fear of death.

There's no way I will commit suicide. I haven't made it through all the years in school and such just to kill myself afterwards. I would have wasted a lot of time. Plus I'm a very happy person and like to live in this world.

I admit contemplating suicide before and sometimes I still do but suicide is just another option along with other possible options.

Originally posted by jaja binks@Jun 27 2005, 12:42 AM
[QUOTE]But for something like living in jail for life, being beaten by other jail mates, that is a good oppurtunity for suicide. (by Nightmare @ Jun 26 2005, 11:51 PM)


well, he/she should have expected situation like this will occur. Its his/her own doing that he/she ends up in jail for life, so its alright for him/her to run away from responsibilities by taking the easy way out?
Jaja Blinks: Damn right it is. Seriously, once again, why do you people like doing things the hard way? If it is the easiest way out, why not go for it? You seem to think it is bad to take the easy way out. What responsibilites do you have in jail? What responsibility do you have that could possibly be important to other people? That is right, you don`t have any.

Your only responsibility is to yourself, and since you are responsible for yourself, you have every right to choose what you wish for yourself. Whether this person expected the situation to occur or not has nothing to do with taking the easy way out, nor the responsibilites you have in jail (or lack thereof.)

`kquietude`, a person should not live their life for other people. A person should live their life for themself. It is not selfish to do what you wish to your own life, that is, granted it doesn`t directly affect another person`s life. By this, I mean not killing, raping, or intentionally verbally attacking someone. No, just because other people are hurt by you commiting suicide does not mean you are being selfish. Just because you love another person and marry her does not make you selfish either. Nor does you getting a job that someone else wants. Just because they are hurt by it doesn`t make you selfish.

Commiting suicide means that you become a statistic. You personality is lost, and no matter how unselfish it may seem, someone out there will be affected, possible severly, by your actions.

Mystery-editor, you seem to be missing the point I was making entirely. I don`t argue over whether or not people would be affected. I`m sure there will be people who are affected. I am debating over whether it is selfish or not.

Originally posted by Angelic@Jun 27 2005, 04:01 AM
Eating a lot of painkillers or sleeping pills will kill you but you won't feel it, so your arguments are kinda stupid. Just keep thinking you don't want it, the will to live is a better reason to be alive than the fear of death.
You're absolutely right, but you missed my second point entirely...
Taking pills has a relatively low success rate... unless you're completely by yourself... And it could lead to medical problems, which was another unspecified point...

hmm......ok, by all means its ur life nightmare. btw, its jaja BINKS, not jaja BLINKS.

but no matter how you look at it, suicide is just some typical doing of a wimp, ur guardians or parents didn't brought you up so that you can commit suicide (unless you're not brought up by anyone). and rather than committing suicide, why not face the problem or life like a man? (or woman).

i agree with that statement... You only live life once! It'd be dumb if everyone who has problems would kill themselves... Everyone in the world would have to, because no one, no matter your race, lifestyle, religion, or gender, has ever not had any problems. we all do, just some cope better than others...

Originally posted by aoiryuukishi13@Jun 27 2005, 02:38 PM
i agree with that statement... You only live life once! It'd be dumb if everyone who has problems would kill themselves... Everyone in the world would have to, because no one, no matter your race, lifestyle, religion, or gender, has ever not had any problems. we all do, just some cope better than others...
however, you just missed my point. What about people outside of our country, where they are not fed, and they have to work in horrible conditions with no hope in saving themselves? That would be a good reason to suicide. It wont mean that they are dumb.

Suicide doesnt neccesarily mean a person who is down kills him/herself.

about the pills, sometimes if u take too much (wayyyyyyy too much) ur body rejecks it. in other words, u hurl ur intestines to sh!t... not very fun.

Yes, I understand that as well, but I myself have been in situations that people could never dream of... I was able to stay strong and resolute though, and I got through it fine... So I still say there is no justification for suicide...

Suicide can hurt your family friends and thats why its selfish.
Also, everybody has a meaning in life..a dream.
And I wouldnt want to take my life until I fulfill that dream.

Selfishness is a coin with two sides.

From the suicide's position, it may well look selfish of the others that they want to keep him/her alive at all costs. Why, if they really love him/her, won't they let him/her go? I realise that this argument appears stronger if your philosophy is an individualist one than if it's a communal one.

Also, the issue is a lot more complicated than it seems at first. Many people who contemplate suicide have a basic problem with being happy, with enjoying life. Meanwhile, they feel the pressures of everyday life like everbody else. Living is, basically, an effort with no rewards. This is not an easy situation; and people who love you won't like to see you like that. A suicide will notice that whenever s/he attempts to talk about this. They usually don't start directly. They'll drop inconspicious lines at appropriate moments and watch the response.

[Suicide and Friend watch a movie. A character commits suicide.

Friend: Now, that's plain stupid. Look what he's done to his girl. I mean, c'mon, how selfish can you get?
Suicide: Yeah, but... I mean, what's he supposed to do. He'd cause her grief simply by living on. Not that he wants to, but, you know...
Friend: No, I don't. They can work it out, can't they. I mean they love each other. Well, she loved him at any rate.
Suicide: Well, I suppose...]

Suicides usually encounter a lot of statements; "Suicide's don't think of others," "Life is beautiful," etc. But their experience doesn't measure up to that. So if their friends confirm these statements again and again, they won't be exactly willing to talk. They may think that they won't understand, it'll create a lot of grief between them, a barrier of sorts, a continual source of grief. A suicide might come to the conclusion that it is better to cause them the one time big grief; they'll have to come to terms with that, but once they have their life is nice and enjoyable again. If they'd go on, there's the risk that - instead of the friend helping the suicide - the suicide "contaminates" the friend with his/her own unhappiness. Which, in the experience and thought of the suicide, is a pretty tough situation to shake off.

Many survivers feel betrayed. "He didn't trust us to help him..." What they don't realise is that often there are no easy decisions. That responsibility issues are a lot more complex than they look from outside. How much can you ask from your friends? Doesn't that depend on the person?

Saying that suicide is selfish, IMO, doesn't necessarily help. Some suicides might cling to that; they might try to find meaning in living for others, and they might be happy through other people's happiness. (Have you ever met people who'd do everything for you, but are struck dumb if you ask them what they want for themselves?) But others might just mumble to themselves, "You don't understand, but isn't it better that way? Do I really want you to understand? Once you do the world's an ugly and depressing place. Better you stay the way you're now."

Blanket statements for suicide are bound to miss the point for some, while they're helpful for others.

I contemplated suicide in my early teen years, and the only reason I'm still alive is - which must sound ironic to those who claim suicide is "the easy way out" - because I was such a coward. These days, thoughts of suicide still pop up, but they're just a reflex (if I killed myself today, I'd agree with the easy-way-out crowd, actually; I don't really want to die anymore). But back then, suicide was one solution among many, and if you ask me today whether I'm glad I didn't do it, I'd shrug and say that I don't think about it, but take a day at a time and enjoy what I can, and suffer what I can't shrug off. One thing living through a suicidal period has taught me is that most problems in life aren't that bad. Just don't let them pile up until life itself becomes the problem. By then, I would say there's nothing selfish or stupid about contemplating suicide. Suicide is just the end of a life gone wrong.

But a life gone wrong can be repaired. As you can see, I'm still here, and I'm also enjoying life quite bit. ^_^

***

Btw, this is a question I always ask when the subject of suicide comes up on a message board:

If a member decided to end their life, would you want a suicide note? If yes, only from friends or generally? In a thread? In a PM? (This is an interesting question - to me - because of the unique social nature of message boards.)

That was a very interesting conclusion... It makes a lot of sense, too.

btw, about your question, I wouldn't want a suicide note... Not if that person has anyone else they can turn to. But if i'm the last resort maybe... And it'd probably be better if i got it through pm instead of post...

Originally posted by aoiryuukishi13@Jun 27 2005, 06:04 PM
That was a very interesting conclusion... It makes a lot of sense, too.

Thanks, I'm trying my best not to judge people...


btw, about your question, I wouldn't want a suicide note... Not if that person has anyone else they can turn to. But if i'm the last resort maybe... And it'd probably be better if i got it through pm instead of post...

Thanks, for the reply, but by "suicide note" I mean the letter they leave behind for others to read after they've decided to kill themselves (it would be their last post; they wouldn't even drop in to view the replies). I don't mean eventual "cries for help" before hand. If a forum member decided to kill themselves these are the alternatives, I can think of:

a) Tell everyone (suicide note) and stop posting
b ) Just stop posting
c) Say goodbye but give no reason
d) Say goodbye and lie (claim to kick an internet addiction or something...)

Not so much putting a burden of helping with a decision, more like information why the member's no longer around. The question is: would you want to know?

[Edit: I didn't want a cool smiley but I got that when typing b ) without the blank.]

i consider you as a role model, but at the same time a coward (sorry, :heh: )

As for ur question: i would want to know about it, the reason he/she commits suicide, as there are many reasons apart from TAKING THE EASY WAY OUT.

Suicide can hurt your family friends and thats why its selfish.
Also, everybody has a meaning in life..a dream.
And I wouldnt want to take my life until I fulfill that dream.

And maybe the dream is to die.

A family that is hurt because of suicide is just hoveringin the past. If they want to hover in the past, the should try to find out why it happened. And if it was their fault, that is a reason not to hover in the past because now they are hurt even more because they caused the problem which can only be masked, not fixed.

Death has allways been a normal part of life, and for some cultures, suicide shows that you are mature because you arnt afraid of any thing.

also, there is only one thing that is worse then death, being forgoten and still be alive.

If a forum member decided to kill themselves these are the alternatives, I can think of:

a) Tell everyone (suicide note) and stop posting
b ) Just stop posting
c) Say goodbye but give no reason
d) Say goodbye and lie (claim to kick an internet addiction or something...)

If anyone posts that they are going to commit suicide, that means they have some doubt, because if you want to die, you'll just jump off a building or slit your wrists- whatever, but by posting it shows you want someone to give you a reason to live because you cant think of any at the moment.

Or they are just being an attention whore.

A-jay, please do me-and everyone else- a favor, and read the previous posts before you make a reply. I clearly explained how suicide wasn`t selfish. If you have nothing to support yourself against my arguement, please don`t post pointless comments like that mimicking what other people say.

Who are you people to decide whether or not it is an easy or hard way out to commit suicide? Who are you people to determine whether or not commiting suicide is being a coward or not? It could be the hardest thing in the world to the suicidal person. You can`t tell how hard or easy it is for the person, simply because you are not that person. Stop making things up, people.

Originally posted by jaja binks+Jun 27 2005, 06:34 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (jaja binks &#064; Jun 27 2005, 06:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>i consider you as a role model, but at the same time a coward (sorry, :heh: )[/b]

Thanks for the kind words. Being called a coward, that I&#39;m used to, but a role model...
:think: Hard to wrap my mind around that one, probably because I know my flaws so well. ;)

And thanks for your reply. :)

<!--QuoteBegin-Thorn
If anyone posts that they are going to commit suicide, that means they have some doubt, because if you want to die, you&#39;ll just jump off a building or slit your wrists- whatever, but by posting it shows you want someone to give you a reason to live because you cant think of any at the moment.[/quote]

Not every suicide leaves a note, but most such notes are meant to be found after the event (sometimes they&#39;re found in a pocket with the corpse, and sometimes they&#39;re placed somewhere where the suicide can count on them being found at a certain time - e.g. weekends in an office). There are, of course, some people who use unreliable methods of killing themselves on purpose, kind of as a warning strike, and in that case the eventual notes aren&#39;t meant to be found after the event. But the difference is very hard to tell, and I think less harm is done by playing along, than by getting it wrong and accusing somebody who&#39;s just survived an honest attempt of cheating.

That said, the nature of message boards changes that. You can&#39;t be certain that your message is read only after your death (actually, quite the reverse is true). But, then, that usually doesn&#39;t matter because most of the people on the web know only your online persona, and even if they know who you are the chance that they can interfere in time is pretty slim (but if they find out phone numbers or something, they could still interfere; not by calling the suicide, but by calling a local ambulance, for example). But such cases are rare and can be controlled by the suicide (who usually knows who knows them).

Actually, most (true) suicide notes are for the benefits of friends and relations; a last attempt to stop them from blaming themselves, or to somehow ease the pain. It rarely works, but then often friends and relatives who do not receive such a note complain about that ("We&#39;re not even worth a note..."). Many suicides are aware of the pain they cause; for some that&#39;s the point (revenge suicides), but most don&#39;t enjoy causing pain, and some of those think that leaving a note will help reduce the pain (at least they won&#39;t have to ask the "why" question).

Of course, nobody can write a suicide note after they kill themselves. On message boards, it&#39;s additionally harder to have it read only after the event. It is, however, possible to post and not come back before killing oneself. It&#39;s just that such a suicide may require more discipline. (I&#39;ve heard an account of a friend, who - the last time he saw the suicide - said something like "Take care of yourself," and the suicide said, "Don&#39;t make good-bye so hard for me," and he (the friend) thought, "Huh? We&#39;re only parting for the weekend. I&#39;ll see him again on Monday." He didn&#39;t see him again on Monday. Instead there was a letter...)

The point of my question is this:

In the "real" world, it&#39;s very hard to conceale your suicide; if you disappear, people are going to wonder where you are. However, on message boards people come and go and fade away. This board has a "returns and departure"-thread, which is interesting (I haven&#39;t seen that elsewhere). Surely, a suicide would count as a departure?

First, ask yourself why such a thread is there, then ask yourself how you would feel if you read a suicide note in there; or how you would feel if you somehow learned somebody had killed themselves but didn&#39;t say good-bye in there.

That&#39;s what I&#39;m interested in.

Originally posted by Nightmare@Jun 27 2005, 11:52 PM
Or they are just being an attention whore.

A-jay, please do me-and everyone else- a favor, and read the previous posts before you make a reply. I clearly explained how suicide wasn`t selfish. If you have nothing to support yourself against my arguement, please don`t post pointless comments like that mimicking what other people say.

Who are you people to decide whether or not it is an easy or hard way out to commit suicide? Who are you people to determine whether or not commiting suicide is being a coward or not? It could be the hardest thing in the world to the suicidal person. You can`t tell how hard or easy it is for the person, simply because you are not that person. Stop making things up, people.
now saying that a person is an attention whore will only make the situation worse. You do not judge other people from your preconceptions, or from their appearances.

Your post is very interesting dawnstorm. Even I didnt realize that.

[QUOTE]Tell us what you think about suicide (by Hiei @ Jun 26 2005, 04:31 AM)

hmm.... did A-jay did anything wrong? he&#39;s just giving his own view. maybe u&#39;re overreacting a bit, nightmare?

hmm.... did A-jay did anything wrong? he&#39;s just giving his own view. maybe u&#39;re overreacting a bit, nightmare?


Tell us what you think about suicide (by Hiei @ Jun 26 2005, 04:31 AM)


notice how it says Tell us what you think about suicide. This means to give your own view on suicide, which means that A-jay didnt say anything wrong.

I can`t believe you people. Okay, here, I will spell it out for you.


`kquietude`, a person should not live their life for other people. A person should live their life for themself. It is not selfish to do what you wish to your own life, that is, granted it doesn`t directly affect another person`s life. By this, I mean not killing, raping, or intentionally verbally attacking someone. No, just because other people are hurt by you commiting suicide does not mean you are being selfish. Just because you love another person and marry her does not make you selfish either. Nor does you getting a job that someone else wants. Just because they are hurt by it doesn`t make you selfish.


Originally posted by A&#045;Jay
Suicide can hurt your family friends and thats why its selfish.
Also, everybody has a meaning in life..a dream.
And I wouldnt want to take my life until I fulfill that dream.

I think my statement in bold followed by a few typical examples speaks for itself. But let me further explain. Just because you do something, or take away something from other people, does not make you selfish. I use an example of marriage. People marry because they love each other. You can claim that because you married a person that someone else wanted, you were selfish. But I would certainly proclaim differently, as you loved them, and they loved you. It is kind of hard to explain this, as it requires common sense to understand.

But I think that we can just about all agree that if you marry the person you love, and they love you back, it is not being selfish. Same with trying to get a job. Just because you get it over someone else, does not make you selfish. It makes you lucky (unless you had a far superior education than the other person.)

Anyways, the thing that A Jay did which frustrates me is ignore the part of my post where I explain (with examples) that other people being hurt does not make you selfish. Blatantly ignoring this part of my post, and rather then attempting to prove me wrong, he just sputtered out that which I had seemingly disproven. I clearly explained why this was not wrong, yet he ignored my post and proclaimed it was wrong.

From my point of view, I have every right to be bothered by this, as I have to take the time to either rewrite my post in a manner that he can understand, or give him a link to the post. Regardless of which one, it is because he did not read my post that it bothers me. If he had read my post, I am sure that he would have taken the time to explain how my reasoning on the two examples was indifferent from this type of situation, right A Jay?

I hate to rekindle ugly memories (well, not for me but for some of the other ichigos members), but we actually did have a person under the username `Music` coming here threatening suicide, when in actuality, she wanted nothing but attention. Which, of course, we gave her. Anyways, she is banned now, so...yeah. The idea of an attention whore is not to unrealistic, Hiei.

well, nightmare, suicide, does affect the lives of the people around you, directly. Infliction of psychological hurt is invisible, but it is hurt all the same. You don&#39;t have to physically stab the dagger in that person to say that you have hurt that person, and therefore it&#39;s wrong and selfish. And you can&#39;t say that it&#39;s your life, so those people don&#39;t have any right to feel hurt.Looking at what dawnstorm said:

From the suicide&#39;s position, it may well look selfish of the others that they want to keep him/her alive at all costs. Why, if they really love him/her, won&#39;t they let him/her go? I realise that this argument appears stronger if your philosophy is an individualist one than if it&#39;s a communal one.
i thought of that theory when i was in the suicide train of thought. But theory is theory. You ask them not to be selfish in letting you go, but however grand-sounding the theory of "you are not being selfish because it&#39;s YOUR life" sounds, fact and harsh reality remains that they -will- be hurt, and hurt tremendously and grievously at that. Let&#39;s not get into the fine details of semantics, and debate about whether such an action can strictly be classified as "selfish". you just have to ask yourself, do you want to be the cause of grief and sorrow in the only few people who care about you?


Just because you love another person and marry her does not make you selfish either. I think you can&#39;t really compare that to suicide. well, ok to break it down, though this is a digression--- if you love that person and that person loves you, it&#39;s true i don&#39;t think it&#39;s selfish to marry. Even if somebody else loves that person you love, it&#39;s not gonna make anybody happy if you bow out if your lover doesn&#39;t have any feelings for the third party. So not marrying would not be what i would define as "unselfish", because it does not ease the unlucky fella&#39;s suffering, but instead increases the number of people who do suffer.

About dawnstorm&#39;s question, yea, i think i would want to know why, aka, i would rather have a suicide note explaining why. I know about music, but i don&#39;t think you can really generalize and say that everyone who talks about wanting to commit suicide is an attention whore. Some people genuinely are extending a last desperate plea for anybody to help them, because even though they feel that life is bleak, they are fishing around for the last ray of hope, a last good reason why they should not end their life.

I do not disagree with you in that it affects other people in a negative way. My point is, though, that just because it does, doesn`t go to say you are selfish. Which is why I brought up the marriage situation. I use it to show that some things in life you do for yourself, and it can bring others pain. But even so, that doesn`t make you selfish. It is your life, so you have every right to do what you want with it. Yes, people have the right to be upset over how you use it, but that doesn`t make you selfish.

I honestly do not see how it is so completely different, on the outlook I am trying to show you. In both situations, you are doing this action for yourself. In both situations, you can be hurting other people. But yes, I agree completely with you. Your actions are causing pain to others. Once again, that does not go to say you are selfish.

As for your comment on music, I didn`t say everybody who talks about commiting suicide is an attention whore. In fact, that wasn`t even remotely close to what I said. Please stop lieing about things I say. When a person says `or`, that gives the subject a secondary option, or even more options. Saying `Or they are just being an attention whore.` does not even imply that all people who ask for help are wanting attention. It just gives a secondary option, hence the word `or`.

Or they are just being an attention whore.` does not even imply that all people who ask for help are wanting attention

all people who ask for help do want attention, because to be fair if no one payed attention to their asking for help then they wouldnt get it- but i think there are two cries for help-

1- saying you&#39;re going to kill youself because you see no more reason to live and you genuinely want help regaining your happiness

2- usually involves an exact date/method your going to kill yourself on/with- these are the ones you would call the &#39;attention whores&#39; yet it is still a cry for help because there obviously must be something wrong for them to feel they have to threaten suicide to get attention, whether real or not.

By attention whore, that means a person who is whoring attention. When you ask people simply for help, that is not being an attention whore. Though you understand you will be recieving attention, you are doing it for the help, not the attention. A person who considers suicide and ask on a forum for help is not necessarily an attention whore, depending on where his values lie. If he posts for help, then obviously he is not an attention whore. But if he posts for attention, well...that is quite a large difference.

There is a difference between asking for help in an attempt to get help, and asking for help in an attempt to get attention. Music was an attention whore. I have no idea how you came to the conclusion that a cry for help on the attention whore part usually involves a specific date or time, or even method, but...well...actually, please do explain how you came up with that. You don`t need some specific date or method set in mind to be an attention whore. It is not something you really need to plan out, though I suppose it can be done.

I don&#39;t know what it is about attention whoring. But I think committing suicide isn&#39;t really a big deal. It is basically, one less person in this world, hopefully they donate all their organs so they save others.

Well attention whores as you say just do it to cope with the fact that they don&#39;t get much in the first place. Usually they are people who do not feel loved by family usually and rarely get compliments. Most people love compliments and that&#39;s all they want to here. People nowadays don&#39;t do that anymore because everyone just wants them and nobody gives them. That&#39;s probably why people crave the attention. They want to be noticed because they want to remind people that they exist. People who attempt to commit suicide either don&#39;t get a lot of positive feedback or just don&#39;t realise that there are people that care for them out there. That&#39;s what i think anyway.

@meim - so if you committed suicide, then we shouldn&#39;t think much about it? Just another person dead? It&#39;ll affect you if it is a friend or family member. A suicide affects the people that love that person. If you have kids, what would you feel if they died? You spend so much money rearing them and then they repay you by dying? Also when people commit suicide, the method used usually end up wrecking the organs anyway although not all of them do.

Anyway suicide isn&#39;t a good thing. Ending you life only means you haven&#39;t been able to deal with your problems (which a lot of other people go through as well). Is it usually people who think too much that think of suicide or is it more pessimistic people (maybe both)? :blink:

@nightmare - what about lord pent and his stories? Although they were quite fun...

I&#39;ve only read this page so sorry if i&#39;m repeating something already said.

Originally posted by au&#045;kun
Ending you life only means you haven&#39;t been able to deal with your problems (which a lot of other people go through as well).

What if suicide is the way of dealing with the problem? Isn`t that kind of the whole point? Ending your life means you sucessfully dealt with your problems. Maybe not in the best way, but you have still dealt with them.

And as to your comment on Lord Pent, I have no idea what you are trying to say....

for those who contemplate suicide there isnt any other way out, thats why suicide is choosen.

you cannot tell someone in that state of mind that there is another way out, that they have something to live for. Suicide is rarely a spur of the moment thign. alot of planning goes into it and you know exactly how you are going to do it. the only spur of the moment is the final task.

I still to this day do not know if suicide is a correct way to end problems. To me there is no real purpose to life. we spend it first forced into education to fullfill some social ideal. we then work the to have enough to fill our lives with objects to distrack us from the world around us. we then retire and have time and no energy and wait as our bodies breakdown and stop working.
It could be said that suicide puts an end to this cycle of meaningless and pointless living. but then there are the experiences that come with life, the warmth of others, smiles and tears. all so preciouse.

Originally posted by Nightmare+Jun 29 2005, 11:35 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Nightmare @ Jun 29 2005, 11:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-au&#045;kun
Ending you life only means you haven&#39;t been able to deal with your problems (which a lot of other people go through as well).

What if suicide is the way of dealing with the problem? Isn`t that kind of the whole point? Ending your life means you sucessfully dealt with your problems. Maybe not in the best way, but you have still dealt with them.

And as to your comment on Lord Pent, I have no idea what you are trying to say.... [/b][/quote]
No by taking that choice, you opt for the easy way out. That&#39;s what I&#39;m trying to say. It&#39;s not a good choice because it shows that you can&#39;t deal with your problem so you choose to run away from it. Suicide might end the problem, but it merely causes more problems as a result.

The Lord pent one was for your "attention whore". Remember all those stories he made up as a joke?

Suicide is not an easy way out,　just because you say it is. So what if you can`t deal with your problems? That doesn`t automatically go to say that suicide is easy. Anyways, suicide is a solution to end your problems. Even if it is an easy way out, why go the hard way, if nothing good awaits you? Lastly, how the hell do you get more problems if you are dead?

What happens if there is nothing but this world where people live and when they die where does their conciousness go? Does it simply travel the world or does it stay in another place where there is nothing but darkness. I am Catholic and so I try not to think about commiting suicide. I have much faith and to believe that God made each and every one of us. To kill ourselves would be selfish if God did spend the time to make us. That would be the only possible way in which it would be selfish. Imagine that if you spent time on homework or a mission which was very long and complex and it just disappears. Would you not be frustrated and angry. That is what your family and friends would be like if you suddenly disappeared for ever. Suicide is never an answer, for anyone. The Reason being. What if you were to do something great in the future? Oh and to people who are in different countries who work for nothing don&#39;t have the same views as us. Some say that they have the life and they want nothing else from it. They still do not have the right to take their own lives. We consider for them being almost hopeless but what happens if they don&#39;t consider themselves hopeless. It still means they don&#39;t have the right to kill themselves.

you cannot tell someone in that state of mind that there is another way out, that they have something to live for. Suicide is rarely a spur of the moment thign. alot of planning goes into it and you know exactly how you are going to do it. the only spur of the moment is the final task.

that&#39;s true (i also agree with the rest of your post but im not going to quote it all because others can read for themselves.) there is usually a lot of planning around it; i read somewhere that people try and go for the most unlikely method possible- (e.g a self-harmer won&#39;t slash their wrists to die, a swimmer wont drown themselves...). there isn&#39;t really anything anyone can say to you if you&#39;re at this point and if you are serious about it, the only thing anyone can really do is stay with you until you&#39;re feeling better- there is rarely anything they can actually say that you haven&#39;t already considered.


I have much faith and to believe that God made each and every one of us. To kill ourselves would be selfish if God did spend the time to make us.

I don&#39;t really know if i believe in God or not, but surely it would be equally as selfish for him to expect us to go on living in pain and torment?? i thought he was supposed to care about us- doesn&#39;t sound vary caring to me.


Imagine that if you spent time on homework or a mission which was very long and complex and it just disappears. Would you not be frustrated and angry.

that&#39;s different because homework isn&#39;t an individual living thing with emotions of its own.


What if you were to do something great in the future?

that&#39;s very true- you never know these things; for all you know, later on in the week, or month something may happen to make things better and to make you happier- but its also equally likely that things could get worse.

I dont think anyone has the right to tell someone that they have no right to commit suicide because what may seem a mild problem to you could be eating someone else up day in day out. Yes, suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem, and im not saying i agree with it, i just think in order to decide if someone has the right to die, you must understand them completely, and i dont know about anyone else, but i&#39;d be pretty scared if someone understood me because i don&#39;t understand me- the human mind is too complex for anyone to fully understand.

The only thing i know for definite is that when i attempted, i was sick of being a sponge; just absorbing everything fate threw at me without complaining. and i was sick of having to look for positive aspects of life because i just thought, if i was meant to be any different to the way i am, positive things would come to me just as easily as negative things; i wouldn&#39;t have to desperately search and cling to them. I realise this may be a load of rubbish, but it&#39;s how i was feeling at the time- i wasn&#39;t in a rational state of mind.

Kilias, let`s not bring religion into this. We have people with many different religions on this forum, and the fact is, no one here can prove their religion is true. We have a religion thread for that-why do you think the thread is so huge?

You say the reason that suicide is never the answer is the possibility of doing something great in the future. The problem with this, is on the other side of the coin there is the possibility of living a useless life, hardly productive to other people, and if even so, in an unimportant way. The possibility of doing something is not reason enough to live. Because the possibility of not doing something great is just as huge.

i always see the suicide as the most easy way that a weak person take for run away of his/her problems -_- , anyway, even if i&#39;m not agree with this, each person can do with his life whatever s/he want to do :rolleyes: , i mean, if we cannot choice what to do with our lifes (even if the choice is to finish it), we&#39;re no longer life... my life is the only thing that i&#39;m sure i own, if i want to finish it, it&#39;s my choice, the reason doesn&#39;t matter, each person must have the liberty of, at least, choice what to do with his life.... (still i think that the suicide is stupid -_- )

In a way I agree with everyone, but at the same time I disagree.

Everyone says that if you start to feel depressed to go get help, to talk to someone, or do something to make you feel better and happy.

What if you don&#39;t like to share with complete strangers what you are going through? And you&#39;ve tried everything to keep yourself busy?

About a year ago I was minutes away from killing myself, but I just dropped the knife without any reason.

So I started writing in a journal but that got old, then started to draw anime but that soon got dull, then playing music which is starting to lose some fun of it, and now I&#39;m trying to learn Japanese but how long before I lose interest in that?

It&#39;s not attention whoring because I have only told 2 people about my depression. Mom and a good friend. I could never bring myself to tell the rest of my friends that not a minute goes by without me thinking "that knife would work", "I can&#39;t stand it anymore".

What do you do then? I have tried everything under the sun to keep my mind off of my deppresion but I&#39;m losing things that I enjoy to do anymore.

I get tired of playing video games and reading.

Does anybody have ANY suggestions as to what I could possibly do to help.

My mom talked about taking me to a therapist(sp?) but she never took me. And she said that she is not taking me to a shrink because all they do is give you pills and say that this will help you.

I&#39;m open to all help, please.

People say to try to get help, and while I&#39;m still having a sain moment I need it.
please... :(

Originally posted by Nami@Jun 30 2005, 03:15 PM
So I started writing in a journal but that got old, then started to draw anime but that soon got dull, then playing music which is starting to lose some fun of it, and now I&#39;m trying to learn Japanese but how long before I lose interest in that?

I&#39;m writing stories and I&#39;m composing music. Sometimes, I can&#39;t stand another word. I can&#39;t read, I can&#39;t write, and even talking&#39;s hard, but then there&#39;s music to turn to. I, invariably, get frustrated with my compositional efforts. I can&#39;t do transitions, I can&#39;t do endings, and they often lack texture. There&#39;ll always come the time where I stare at the sheet and listen to the sounds, and it goes over my head. And that means: it&#39;s time to go writing again.

The point is, perhaps, you&#39;re a bit like me in that respect, and one thing alone isn&#39;t going to work for you. When playing music loses it&#39;s appeal try to go back to drawing anime, and see if the music&#39;s recharged it somehow. Perhaps that could work? Don&#39;t know, just an idea.

***

One thing that helped me get over the "reel" (the same gloomy thoughts all over again) was watching people and what made them smile, or what shocked them, or what made them cry. The "reel master" would protest and say "that won&#39;t work for you", and - while I did believe that - I said something like "shut up, this isn&#39;t about me, I&#39;m watching them".

I don&#39;t know why that worked for me. Perhaps, because I had less time to remember how miserable I was?

***

When I was suicidal, I came in three phases:

1. Pretty normal. Walking, talking, doing.
2. Automaton. Doing (doing the dishes, or vaccuuming, or just going for a walk), but mind is numb. In that phase you could have stuck a fork into me, and I&#39;d feel the fork and look down at it, and think, interesting, that&#39;s pain. It was a weird state of mind, but the one I preferred, because I didn&#39;t care one way or another.
3. Paralysed. Either go straight to bed, or sit in a corner and don&#39;t move. This is, where the "reel Master" strikes at its fiercest. Same loop of thoughts; replaying endlessly.

If I had killed myself, it would have been in phase 1. I didn&#39;t because ( a ) I was afraid of pain and ( b ) I was afraid of failing; then everybody would know, and they&#39;d make a fuss, but they wouldn&#39;t understand (they couldn&#39;t understand, or how would they go on living?). All it would have taken was a painless, surefire method.

The irony is that in phase 1 I could have lead a pretty normal life, but I didn&#39;t enjoy the simplest things, because I was so afraid of phase 3. I only realised this in retrospect, though. I think, what did it for me, was doing things and watching people. Living in the here and now. It&#39;s hard, but if you manage that, phrases like:


but how long before I lose interest in that?

lose their power.

Now, I quite enjoy live. Not always, but even pain is better than phase 3 paralysis. ^_^

I agree with what Nightmare is saying. People have the right to die when they want, as long as they have contemplated all the consequences of their actions. Though that&#39;s a hard call to make, it&#39;s impossible to tell if someone did think about it before they did themself in.

Just remember that virtually everyone goes through suicidal phases, though few actually go through with it. And yes, how does taking your own life count as taking the easy way out?

Depression is a treatable thing, Nami. The best thing I say is that you should try out the medication. If you start to feel isolated, you need to force yourself to talk to friends or families that can help.

Originally posted by Nightmare@Jun 29 2005, 11:49 PM
Suicide is not an easy way out,　just because you say it is. So what if you can`t deal with your problems? That doesn`t automatically go to say that suicide is easy. Anyways, suicide is a solution to end your problems. Even if it is an easy way out, why go the hard way, if nothing good awaits you? Lastly, how the hell do you get more problems if you are dead?
If you actually tried to understand first, then it would have been obvious. Problems as in for the people left behind is what I meant, not for the dead. Plus you don&#39;t actually know that you can&#39;t have problems when you&#39;re dead so that wasn&#39;t a really effective comment. Why go the hard way? Why not? Most people do it. But most logically, you don&#39;t die so that you can pass on your genes. "Survival of the fittest". Committing suicide kinda means you just aren&#39;t the fit ones. You&#39;d be weak. If you can&#39;t cope with the changing environment then you die. You die, you can&#39;t pass on your genes. Running away from your problems doesn&#39;t solve them really because if you were still alive it would continue so commiting suicide doesn&#39;t really solve the problem because it is a form of running away.

I don&#39;t see why you&#39;re arguing to see people die. You seem like you want to run away as well. You don&#39;t want to help people through their problems? You rather run away from them when they are in need? Doesn&#39;t seem too good from a friend&#39;s point of view does it. You would rather let a friend commit suicide or help him/her to solve their problems? If you&#39;d rather let them die, then so be it but you would live knowing you could have done something about it. If you would want to help them, then there is no point to your argument anymore.

I don&#39;t like arguing for the sake of arguing so if it&#39;s one of those, then I&#39;m not gonna bother wasting my breath.


i always see the suicide as the most easy way that a weak person take for run away of his/her problems Quote:- JcKaji2

That&#39;s the view that I said I take.


People have the right to die when they want, as long as they have contemplated all the consequences of their actions. Quote:-zebra

I didn&#39;t say that they weren&#39;t allowed to die, just that I THINK it&#39;s foolish.

@nami - I&#39;d try to help you if you pm me. I&#39;m no psychiatrist, but I can try to cheer you up enough to prevent you from thinking about it too much. Psychiatrists don&#39;t actually help 100% of the time. Medication according to some people doesn&#39;t work either. Best thing is to talk to someone you trust or one of those phone help lines like samaritans or something.

Originally posted by Nightmare@Jun 26 2005, 07:10 AM
If the person wants to commit suicide, maybe it is the best thing for that person. Personally, though, I would advise against it. If a person has the courage to commit suicide maybe they should take that courage and apply it to life. Then again, suicide can also be a good means to end pain.
Of course there is a point in me arguing. If people like you read all I typed in my posts, these arguements would be so much shorter. Just because I said suicide was okay, doesn`t mean I would advise it. I have helped other people out of suicide before, including my friends. I don`t need to run away to help them. Of course if a person I know wants to commit suicide, I try to help them. But we are not talking about if Nightmare`s friends commit suicide. We are talking about suicide in general.

It is similiar to saying which race horse you would like to ride in a race, the shitty old horse, or the new strong one. While it doesn`t hurt to ride the shitty old horse, it would be much more advisable to use the strong one, to get a better outcome. I don`t argue that suicide is the best answer. I argue that it is an acceptable answer. Please stop making false accusations against me, exspecially when you don`t know me.

sorry mate. You&#39;re right I should have read everything. sorry if you&#39;ve been offended by my comments. I think I just don&#39;t like people dying if they don&#39;t really need to. I guess it is acceptable for someone to do so but maybe they just need support.


Please stop making false accusations against me, exspecially when you don`t know me.

When I said "you" it was a general you as in anybody. The only bit where I meant you as in you was the friends bit just to clarify. Although I thought I&#39;d try to make it more personal to see if your opinions changed but I didn&#39;t read the bit before.

In the case of the race horse though, the strong racehorse is the committing suicide decision. Although it does imply it is the easier route, it does suggest that committing suicide is also the stronger act to do which I do not agree on. Anyway, sorry if I&#39;ve offended you, I didn&#39;t do it intentionally. :mellow:

To all those people who think suicide is selfish, I think you need a re-definition of what selfish is. The only real way to not be selfish is to do something that is completely against your will. Think about it hard enough and the answer&#39;s there.

An-kun - Your comment about natural selection, I think it is irrelevant now that the human race has come in and taken over. We&#39;ve managed to wipe out thousands of species that would&#39;ve survived otherwise if we never existed.

Suicide is considered selfish because it doesn&#39;t hurt you, it just hurts the ones who are close to you. But on the other hand, it&#39;s your life, no one else can tell you what to do with it.

I would never consider comitting suicide, no matter the situation. Be it selfish or not, but I wouldn&#39;t want to hurt anyone who loved me.

Be it selfish or not, but I wouldn&#39;t want to hurt anyone who loved me.

That&#39;s the same reason i dont think of it as an option anymore. whatever you want to call it; selfish, weak, running away.... the one thing it definetely does is hurt those who loved you. There again it could be argued that if you had people to love you, you wouldnt be in that state in the first place.

At the time, I didn&#39;t think I was being selfish. I was tired all the time, and when I got home from school, my mom would be in a bad mood and just be mean to me. She&#39;d say things like "I hate you" and "I&#39;m going to put you in foster care, I don&#39;t want you"
She told me I made her sick. Why? I don&#39;t know. Finally, when I started highschool, it got too much for me. My mom got worse and more mean, and all the bullying at school and stress just totally overloaded me. I was so tired *all the time*, always sleeping in class. I begged her to let me be homeschooled, and she called me stupid and said no.
A month later, I saw no way out of it - It was going to continue forever like that, it seemed. Every day was worse than the last. I really wanted to die. None of this "waah waah I&#39;ll cut my wrists and hope I die" shit, I injected myself with a shitload of fast-acting insulin. My mother found me having convultions and called 911.

I was in the hospital for several days. It was very awkward - my mom was too nice. It&#39;s like I was waiting for her to start yelling at me. I didn&#39;t want to leave the hospital, you know? I didn&#39;t want to go back to how it had been...but I had no choice. My mom really learned nothing from that, and kept doing the same things. From the second I left the hospital, I was planning how I&#39;d do it for sure next time. 2 weeks later, she went to bed early, so I thought I had my chance. I pumped myself full of any injectible drug I could find in our home. Insulin, Methotrexate, and other stuff I didn&#39;t know what it was. I guess she got up to go to the bathroom or something, I don&#39;t know...I was already out of it.

This time, they put me in a mental hospital - no joke. It was hell. These people made you get up at 7am and sit in a desk all day. You couldn&#39;t get out of it. Did I learn anything from that place? No. All it was was some rich College kids trying to get volunteer credits and crap. At night, you could hear them talk (loudly) in the hallways about their vacation in Europe and all that bullshit. The doctor there was an idiot, too. You have absolutely 0 rights. You don&#39;t want to take anti-depressants? Too bad. They shove it down your throat forcibly.

My mom finally stood up and changed a bit (She&#39;s gone back to her old ways now, but I can deal with it now.) and let me do homeschooling. We finally got me to the doctor about why I was so tired. Turns out I had a very severe sleeping disorder. She said it&#39;s amazing I even got up in the mornings like I had. Once I was able to sleep more, I didn&#39;t feel quite as tired, and I felt alot better mentally. I don&#39;t take anti-depressants. I don&#39;t want them, nor do I need them. Pills won&#39;t make me happy.

The best advice I can give is this: Remember, it does get better. I know everyone says that, but it really does. Sometimes it just takes a while.
Another thing is that you have to learn to cope with things better and avoid situations that always make you upset. Learning to just let the mean things my mother said go in one ear and out the other is what I did, you know? It takes time, but you have to learn healthy ways to deal with things. Oh, and don&#39;t listen to depressing music - it only makes it worse.

Originally posted by zebra@Jul 1 2005, 11:29 AM

An-kun - Your comment about natural selection, I think it is irrelevant now that the human race has come in and taken over. We&#39;ve managed to wipe out thousands of species that would&#39;ve survived otherwise if we never existed.
Intraspecific competition mate. Ever heard of that? That&#39;s still survival of the fittest. Surviving in human terms is earning enough money to feed ourselves (or stealing) and dating is like that mating dance thing that animals do. It was relevent to the point I was trying to express.

@Nami:hmm, do you know what caused you to feel depressed/suicidal? Usually people have their reasons, like family & school, as in Sashiro&#39;s case, or you think too much about the nature of life and just feel it&#39;s horribly bleak, or something along that line.


So I started writing in a journal but that got old, then started to draw anime but that soon got dull, then playing music which is starting to lose some fun of it, and now I&#39;m trying to learn Japanese but how long before I lose interest in that?

well, nobody said you have to stick your head through the same hobby your entire life. If we go into abit of philosophy :doh: ,life is supposed to be like a buffet spread with its multitude of varied experiences; so what&#39;s wrong with sampling one dish, then if you tire of it, go on to sample another? A buffet is there for you to try out as many things as you can anyway. Sampling is a way of experiencing life,and a rather refreshing way at that ---you will never get bored because you know there&#39;s always something new and interesting out there,to move on to.

So if you don&#39;t seem to be able to find something that you can devote yourself to, then maybe you can think about living your life intentionally with the purpose of trying out and learning as many new things as you can with it.

Hope that bit helped. :sweatdrop: yea, you can pm me if you want to, too. ^_^


I only realised this in retrospect, though. I think, what did it for me, was doing things and watching people. Living in the here and now.

haha, dawnstorm, same with me. Nowadays if i start to think too much and the depressing thoughts start creeping in, i try to focus on the now and what&#39;s happening immediately around me, instead of thinking about the past and the future and everything else seemingly hopeless. It works. XD

:mellow: y do some people commit suicide? if it hurts the ones who love them and/or r close to them y do they do it? the ones they where close to sufferd a great deal. but its no ones choice exept for the person who did because its there choice to live or die



people who commited suiside x_x x_x x_x
people close to person :cry: :cry: :cry:
people who hate person :) :mellow: <_< :cry:

:mellow: y do some people commit suicide? if it hurts the ones who love them and/or r close to them y do they do it? the ones they where close to sufferd a great deal. but its no ones choice exept for the person who did because its there choice to live or die



people who commited suiside x_x x_x x_x
people close to person :cry: :cry: :cry:
people who hate person :) :mellow: <_< :cry:
Because they see it as an end to the bleak passing of the days. An alternative to the slow decay of old age, since nothing is going to change except possibly that time may speed up even more, leaving them behind, bewildered, to follow as best they can through a stupor of boredom and despair.

Personally, I cannot think of any good reason to commit suicide. I believe it to be weak; only by confronting your fears my you become stronger. There are many who are willing to admit weakness, and view it as giving up. Which is... unacceptable. People have the right to die when they wish; I grant that. It's just completely incomprehensible to me why anyone would want to. I have led an ok life, nothing too terrible has ever happened or anything, but I do have problems with serious depression... that seems to be the leading cause for suicidal actions. Depression... out of depression comes the overly dramatic paragraph that I wrote above. I have had suicidal thoughts... who hasn't? But I do not think that it's ok to give in to them, you know?

The best advice I can give is this: Remember, it does get better. I know everyone says that, but it really does. Sometimes it just takes a while.
Another thing is that you have to learn to cope with things better and avoid situations that always make you upset. Learning to just let the mean things my mother said go in one ear and out the other is what I did, you know? It takes time, but you have to learn healthy ways to deal with things. Oh, and don't listen to depressing music - it only makes it worse.

I can agree with everything but your first statement on things getting better. Factually, you can not insure this. And just as things can improve, things can also get worse. Maybe things can get better, and then get worse. Or maybe things will get worse, and then better. For all we know, things can get worse, then better, and then become a Hell. It all simply depends on the situation.

Kalile, is there really a point to life? Other than reproduction, that is. What does it matter if one person commits suicide? The world still moves on, as if nothing has happened. Death is inevitable, so why does it matter if we live or die? I can understand reasons not to commit suicide, such as fear, or inability. I can see reasons to live, such as enjoyment in people or activities. But a point to life? I believe there is no point. If there is no point, should it matter?

For as far back as i can remember i had always thought of commiting suicide, even at a very young age...i would always look at my hands and think to myself...'what would happen...if i died?' not being truly connected to anyone has made me doubt my existance countless times...even now i still sometimes think to myself...why do i even exist? It seems the few rare times i am able to become happy seems to be buried under thousands of memories of..detachment...cold moments i suppose...and as much as i want to...i can't get them out of my head, i know its not very nice of me to say as such but i'm beginning to become fed up with life. I know you think i am much better of then a homeless...but what is the point of living the way i am if i can't gain any happiness in it? i don't want to spend my life knowing my childhood was a waste...its like...i've lost the will to live...somehow i feel like i'm slowly dwindling...like a fire burning to ashes...

All my life i've lived with a fake mask, and i still continue to do so...i wonder what would happen if i shed it?

Shizuno- i can relate to that feeling; whenever i am alone, or feeling down, i think about that a lot, and ask myself what would happen if i died- if anyone would notice, or care; if the world would just carry on as normal with even my closest friends not realising that i dont exist anymore.

I have many masks, so many i dont know which one is the real thing anymore-im afraid of shedding any of them because im afraid the one i choose to shred will be the real thing, in which case im just going to be a fake

If Suicide wasn't a sin, I would be all for it, and most likely be dead by now ^.^

My view is that suicide is the easy way out, the split-second solution to all your problems in this world, the perfect exit... hell, even the lowest of the lowest losers can commit suicide and for a few days he'll be talked about (attention he sought for will be finally gained). Thats why i will never sink to it... like i said, its the easy way, the cowards way out of life, and im just not that kind of person. If life gets tough, im prepared to get tought with it - not chicken out! For the same reasons i have no respect for people who commited suicide - only pity that they wasted their life

btw, if you find me hanged, or with a gun in my hand and a smoking bullet hole in my head, or my veins cut with a razor, then punch the first person to say "suic--" in the face and know that its murder!

I disagree- suicide is not the easy way out for those who are in total despair, you have to have experienced the suicidal state to fully understand how; its not something i can explain.

...to have experienced the suicidal state to fully understand how; its not something i can explain.

as in heavy depression? but thats what it is - the quick solution to your depression; it ends the suicidal state, which is just what people want to happen. I consider it the easy way because there are other, more ethical ways to end it...

i think calling cetain other things more ethical is debatable

cause= family

so much stuff goes on within families that noone else never knows about. ive alwayz reminded myself that the kitchen is packed wid knives. I alwayz stop myself thinking bout what i can do after im out of the house and livin on my own. and rememberin that suicide is killing someone its a big sin. one that u can repent on. really the big thing keeping me up is my best friend. cuz good friends r hard to come by

So, to quote Asuka and Sasami, the only thing standing between you and suicide is the knowledge that its a sin? Are you serious, or is this an exaggeration? What about the knowledge that things can still change for the better, that you can change, that everything is in you power, that life isn't something (we'll asume this is true) you can repeat -> so you only have one shot at: one shot to find happiness, etc. etc.

as in heavy depression? but thats what it is - the quick solution to your depression; it ends the suicidal state, which is just what people want to happen. I consider it the easy way because there are other, more ethical ways to end it...

do you realy think ttha twhen you are in that kind of starte that you can see the long term picture?

define more ehtical ways?

i dont believe totally in the idea of sin, i beleive in the process of memetics and that religion is a part of it. therefore if i dont beleive in sin. what is there to stop me

when i saw 'more ethical ways' i thought going to a psychiatrist and having medication for depression or whatever....but i dont see what's particularly ethical about having some kind of depression splashed all over your medical records because of the stigmatisation that comes with it.

exactly my point. i also have a condition which limits circulation in my hands, this has lead to a higher heat and pain tollerence. but the world doesnt see it as that, with that on my record i may not be alloud to work in chemistry.

ive been to two counsellors in the past who have both said different things; the one that she thought i had unipolar depression, and the other thinking i had residual schizophrenia....firstly, they are totally different so the fact iv been told that by different people shows that neither of them really have a clue- they both suggested i saw a doctor but im not having either of those on my record because it will mess up the rest of my life- even when im over whatever my problem is at the moment, with something like that on my record, then what's the point in staying alive coz i wont be able to do anything. not that im considering suicide; just that id choose it over going to the doctors

what is there to stop me

common sense; for example, when two counsellors suggest that you go to a doctor, and you don't, prefering suicide over it - that is definitely a lack of common sense. I'm sorry if this offends you Thorn, but I consider your action and opinion messed up. You'd rather mess up your life than your record...?

common sense; for example, when two counsellors suggest that you go to a doctor, and you don't, prefering suicide over it - that is definitely a lack of common sense. I'm sorry if this offends you Thorn, but I consider your action and opinion messed up. You'd rather mess up your life than your record...?

I dont take offence at all, dont worry, I know i'm messed up. (not meant in a sarcastic way either)

common sense; for example, when two counsellors suggest that you go to a doctor, and you don't, prefering suicide over it - that is definitely a lack of common sense. I'm sorry if this offends you Thorn, but I consider your action and opinion messed up. You'd rather mess up your life than your record...?
are you saying that common sense prevails in the heads of depressed people?

oh, alright - some sort of sense; preferably the one that suggested "suicide" in the first place...

hang on - how 'bout self-preservation? that's even an instinct!!!

you'd be suprissed. you dont realy want to presserve something you allready consider lost. Suicide is the ultimate release, the final release, at that point you cannot consider yourself alive anymore, your life is allready dead

underline the 'you' part in the "you already consider lost"...

do i need remind you how many times we (as in every one of us) were wrong, and thats just simple math problems, not even mentioning complex emotional dilemas; the problem is that many consider themselves to be infinitely wise, and ignore the fact that even they are sometimes mistaken, and that it wouldn't to listen to the occasional advice <_<

lol, i'm one of those people who can give advice but not take it. I for one wouldnt be in the state i am today if i'd listened to mine and others advice.

And u ain't the only one. i give advice to all my friends but never take or listen to advice. if i had, mayb i wouldn't of ended up where i am now.

with the suicide bit from PFT_Shadow; "you'd be suprissed. you dont realy want to presserve something you allready consider lost. Suicide is the ultimate release, the final release, at that point you cannot consider yourself alive anymore, your life is allready dead.."

it's true, but you do not know if it's the final release, people see it as giving in or a way out, some people believe that if u commit suicide, u damn urself.
life is ended, u can't say life is dead, life is finished but it isn't dead, life is not dead, nor will it be soon unless something big happens and we all die: plants, animals, etc.

murder is something unpredicted and suicide is predicted and unpredicted, with suicide, alot of people think it's cowardly because they don't know everything that went on in the suicide-person's life, wat they were thinking and wat the believed.
alot of wat i read on page 6 i think is bullshit. depression isn't something u can fix just like that and it is a mental problem. u can't say that suicide is for cowards. seeing a phyciatrist about it doesn't solve it alot of the time. there is not much they can help u with, and with family problems, most people that have depression, commited suicide or thought about suicide and murder, have put up with these family problems, social problems, etc. for their whole lives. for them, every negative thing adds up and alot of the time they have no support. suicide is their ONLY way of getting out of their situation. i am not religious, but i do think that suicide for people who have situations that can improve and probably will improve given time is wrong, but u must also take into account, people can be scared, frightened, blame themselves (guilty), embarressed and don't tell anyone. so many people think when they commit suicide, ' oh that person took the easy way out when they only had a small problem' when they really don't know anything at all.

if i think about wat my cousins would think, i realise i wouldn't commit suicide cause we've lost one cousin, my uncle and aunt (all from the same family, two cousins left of that family) in 3 years, one each year. i've never really got over them or had the chance to and as a result, i usually get in depressive moods quite often. however, i still think that if people want to commit suicide, it's their choice, and most of the time, their only choice and i believe many people are stupid to thing they're cowards to commit suicide.

i wouldnt call suicide much of a choice really; i suppose at the time that becomes an option, its no better choice than the alternatives- like if the choice is between living a miserable existance in hope that within the next few days it will all get better, and putting an end to it all; i cant really see either of them as the better choice myself.

and things dont just get better; and anyone who thinks that you can just talk to someone and they will wave a magic wand and it will all be over; let everyone else know how they find this 'someone' you speak of- is it just a case of following the yellow brick road?

suicide is their ONLY way of getting out of their situation

bull...

@Thorn: hey, i've never been to a psychiatrist (then again, no one ever suggested that i go to one) - i'm used to solving my inner problems alone... even if it hurts like hell later on

bull...

@Thorn: hey, i've never been to a psychiatrist (then again, no one ever suggested that i go to one) - i'm used to solving my inner problems alone... even if it hurts like hell later on
i put it to you then that you have not experienced what these people have experienced. not on the same level. just because we have had the same life experiences does not mean we can deal and feel the same way about them.

inner problemsare delt with differntly by each problem. its basic psychology that you cannot measure pain. How can you claim that this is bull? last night a friend of mine attempted suicide ok. I had one of the worse nights of my life. since then i have not been able to contact him or his girlfriend. it was over something as stupid as a bit of jelousy. do you think it needed to come to that? no it didnt. do you think it could have been stoped hell yes. but they arent rational. you cant see whats in front of your face when you feel that bad, so dont you dare say bull to me

let me rephrase myself: i have never experienced the "suicide" state, but that does not mean that I didn't experience the problems that lead to it. For example jealousy: i have been so jealous, i consider it one of my worst vices - every single time jealousy ruins my life. I can't say whether it was stronger or weaker than your friends, but even though it ruined my life countless of time, i never thought of suicide. Listen, my life is also messed up, but usually instead of saying "thats it, i hate this life, there is nothing left for me" i tried to run away. Most of my problems are my parents (they're not alcoholics or anything, but...). The first time I ran away I was 9, ok? So most likely I have experienced the same thing, i just dealt with it differently...

And when somebody says "Suicide is the ONLY solution" - yes, thats bull. Are you saying its not? there are situations where that is the only solution? well?

well obviously u didn't read my whole post. i said FOR SOME PEOPLE SUICIDE IS THEIR ONLY WAY OUT. don't twist my words and give them mistaken meaning. i've run away quite a few times, each time i came back i put up with so much shit i wanted to leave again. just because u react to certain situations in someway, doesn't mean that everyone looks at it ur way. some people are really sensitive so problems that are minor and average to u can seem big and huge to them. i used to be really sensitive when i was younger (5 to 10) and get really upset easily just from minor things.
jealousy is different for everyone, sure it's messed up ur life as it has every1's at one point or another, but some people can be really jealous by nature, so for them when they are jealous, it isn't what most people see as an acceptable proportion on jealousy required for the given situation.
and as PFT_Shadow mentioned, inner problems are dealt with differently for every person, for me personally, i deal with it myself, but some times it just grows way out of proportion and it's too hard to deal with and they don't get better.
sorry about ur friend PFT_Shadow, i hope everything works out.
my friend's best friend attempted suicide and my friend had no idea that her best friend was suicidal in the first place. things are ok now and my friend's helping her best friend through it but alot of her other friend's just left her as they thought she was a coward,etc. to attempt suicide.

and yes i am saying that there are situations were suicide can be seen as the only way out

And when somebody says "Suicide is the ONLY solution" - yes, thats bull. Are you saying its not? there are situations where that is the only solution? well?
no, you seem to miss the point, we know it isnt the onl way out. im not doubting this fact. but stating it like this isnt productive. In the suicide state you cannot see any other way out. and shouting it at them and telling them that doesnt change their minds

shouting the fact that there are other choices to suicidal people who see suicide as the only way out is as PFT_Shadow said, not productive and it can also make their situation worse and make them more set against living. not only that, they can be more against telling you anything and allowing you to help them as they'll think that you don't understand and that you can't help them as you won't listen

lol both of you misinterpreted to whom i was replying

@stormchild13: i did read your whole post, and you can see that i quoted you clearly in post #98. you see, it kinda hard to remember the exact phrasing; obviously i had no intention of giving your words a different meaning - and i didn't. If you can point to me the difference between "only way out" and "only solution" (as i wrongly typed in post #100) and how i twisted the meaning of what you said i will be very obliged. However, if you wanted to direct my attention toward the "for some people" part, than i can understand your anger, but i assumed that that part was obvious and to save time and space, decided not to rewrite it again. and don't jump to conclusions, ok?

@PFT: do you know any other way to help them understand, besides telling them and shouting at them? "being prepared is half the battle..." Understanding the problem is the first step. Shouting at them obviously isn't productive - you have to try to understand and suggest other solutions, [i]show[i] that there are other solutions - not wave you Psychiatrist diploma in their face and say "its not the end. there are tons of solutions. go find one yourself" <_<

@stormchild13: "make them more set against living"? when a person is considering suicide, he's already set against living hard enough...

remembered something. I previously stated that it's the cowards way out. Aside from that, it shows that the person doesn't treasure human life enough (if he can easily take his own). Now, some things happened that made me treasure it, realize that its worth a lot, and that its given to you only once. That's why i will never kill anyone, and never commit suicide - i have some value of life etc. (you get my point)

I hate to say it, but at the same time some of those people are egoists - either they don't stop to think that their death will bring pain to their family, friends (as in PFT's case), girlfriend - or they don't care. If you don't give a fuck about yourself, then at least think about those who love you and how you will ruin their lives with your action

hmm... i see ur point and sorry for jumping to conclusions, yeah but sometimes they don't have anyone who'll care about them. say for example, a child who has grown up with abusive parents, father is drunk yells alot, mother doesn't love the child, etc. the child's grown up with no self esteem or confidence and most likely doesn't have friends. so the resulted teenager wants to commit suicide, as they don't want to live this existance and can't see away out of what life they are in. would u then say it's selfish for the teenager to commit suicide?
and with the jealousy thing, the way u expressed ur opinion said that u generalised everyone's jealousy reaction to different things. some people are different and can get extrememly jealous very easily, this is probably due to a rough childhood or upbringing.

say for example, a child who has grown up with abusive parents, father is drunk yells alot, mother doesn't love the child, etc.

hmm... did you ever notice how orphans, etc. always end up being tougher than the rest of us and more successful in life? I think the hard childhood makes them more stronger emotionally, more used to messed up situations. However, maybe those are simply exceptions

I have to agree with you alone, though it is not necessarily a good thing. Sure, they do excel in life, but at what expence. They learn to be grownup all too fast, and their childhood seems to be nothing but pain.
~I'm just typing out loud here, and I do not have anything really to contribute to this converstation because I am not an orphan.

As to suicide: I have to highly disagree with it. If the person truly thinks that life is hell so much that they determine that it would be better to end it, why don't they live it out? A person can find enough euphoria out in this world nowadays. You just have to realize that you have to reach out for it in order to gain it. I understand well that life can be difficult, and that it varies from person to person, but you just have to realize that this is what it means to live: to experence the pain of happyness and sadness.

^which sometimes it takes years to realise!

but for some people, they know no happiness and they've only known sadness, so you can't very well say that you live to know the pains of happiness and sadness cause for some people that are depressed, they only sadness, anger, guilt and hurt. yeah orphans do do better in life as they've not been sheltered with love and etc. but i was talking about children that arn't orphans that have grown up with the abusive and unloving parents and still have the same parents when they're teenagers. would it then be wrong for them to commit suicide? as they have only known anger, hate, sadness, guilt, etc.?

What good is a life that bears more fruits of poison than it's more safer ones? Why even bother living, if you must suffer more pain than happiness? Whoever says that things always get better in the end...well, they need to think things over. This is just as much of a chance that things, if you wait it through, will only get get worse, as there is for it to get better.

@Thorn: hey, i've never been to a psychiatrist (then again, no one ever suggested that i go to one) - i'm used to solving my inner problems alone... even if it hurts like hell later on

I havent been to a psychiatrist either; ive been to counsellors- there is a difference; and it was no use whatsoever, because i refused to take their advice and see a doctor- i am also used to solving things alone, that's why i give a lot of advice but never take any.

@ Nightmare, I agree completely. There is no point trying to wait for things to get better because they could just as easily get worse. They are more likely to get worse before they get better- for me, it's because i focus more on the negative aspects of life than the positives, therefore anything that happens has a negative view from me; because i've got used to taking positive things for granted and obsessing over the negatives to prevent them from taking anything else away from me and causing me more pain.

@ Alone, it doesnt show that they dont treasure human life enough; as various people have said, people dont think about it that way when they are on the verge of killing themselves- and it's not cowardly either, because everyone has their limits; a breaking point and there are only so many times you can let life stamp on you before you are no longer able to get up.

Sometimes it seems like the only way and if people make that decision then as sad as it is; it really is their choice and a hard one for that matter. I dont particularly agree or disagree with suicide; if im honest it upsets me so much that in this day and age, so many decent people are getting to this stage, whilst others, who take pleasure in the misery of others are leading a happy life; its just not fair.

@stormchild13: Are not feelings simply referential? Isn't there a happyness in sadness? Look deep into the emotions: Can you not cry when your happy? Can't you smile when your sad? People just need to understand that if you look hard enough, life can be enjoyable and peaceful; even in extreme pain and sadness.

But yet, the world goes on... We as individuals host no importance to the world, and by killing oneself would not make a change, nor change the way you feel. The sadness would not end there; you would be filled with those images of pain even after death. If you believe in an after-life, they say that your memory remains. Personally, I feel that if I was to end my life; I wouldn't want to remember only sadness for eternity.... The euphoria of death is not all it may seem to those wishing it upon themselves. I choose to live so that I can do what I feel the meaning of life is: To know what it is like to feel. Happyness, Sadness, Depression, Euphoria, Calm, Worry, Modivation, Yearning, Morale, Desire, Imperession, Lack, Want, Need .... Not all postive and by all means not delivered in equal amounts, but experenced. It is all in the way you take a situation and interperate it.

Sounds kinda funny and is almost an oxymoron, but it makes sense in a bizzare way to me. I just hope that people understand the point of what I'm trying to say.

What good is a life that bears more fruits of poison than it's more safer ones? Why even bother living, if you must suffer more pain than happiness? Whoever says that things always get better in the end...well, they need to think things over. This is just as much of a chance that things, if you wait it through, will only get get worse, as there is for it to get better.

You're right, the chances of life becoming worse of better off are equal. But i think it makes more sence to live life through and see what side of the coin you got - if you decide to countinue living, you have a 50% chance of life imroving, and you attaining happiness, whatever... if you choose suicide - the chance becomes 0...

but the thing with suicide, it is already a hard choice to choose to commit suicide, even though alot of people thing that whoever takes that way out is taking the easy way out, it's not, it is really hard to kill yourself. ur natural instinct is to stay alive, etc. it's true that there is equal chance of life getting better or getting worse, people that have lived in an unhappy (understatement of the year) livelihood and have only seen things go from bad to worse, will probably think that things would just get worse.
@mies: sure there is some happiness in some saddness, but for depression, it's depression=no happiness. sure some people cry when they are really happy, but that's the response to really high emotional balance, and smile when they are sad, because they've experienced happy times and some made something happy/funny and being sad isn't as deep/extreme as depression. people that are sad don't commit suicide, the people who have depression do.

... people that are sad don't commit suicide, the people who have depression do.

I think that might not be true, just because you're not depressed doesn't mean you won't commit suicide.

Ad Depression & Suicide: People who are depressed rarely commit suicide while they're depressed. It may sound strange, but they're too down to actualy tackle it. It's the phases in between that are dangerous; when they're afraid of the next bout of depression; or in their manic phase (when they're manic-depressive).

Ad comments like "people commit suicide because XX" (which includes my statement above): Such statements will be true for some, but not for others.

Ad "suicides don't treasure human life"/"suicide=murder": Well, most suicides, it's probably fair to say, do not treasure a life they can't enjoy. However, I rarely hear suicides tell others to kill themselves because they've got problems.

There are, of course, exceptions: heard of a mother who took the axe to her two teenage sons and went away somewhere to start a new life. After several failed attempts at suicide she had arrived at a stage in her life, where she felt that even suicide wouldn't help, and she'd wanted to spare her sons those problems. When the police found her, she just said, "Ah, you probably know already what I've done." She, literally, didn't care anymore what happened to her, and the idea that she might have done something wrong didn't occur to her. So, on occasion, suicide and murder do lie close together.

But it's not the norm. And the story above displays both the connection and the difference between murder and suicide, pretty well I think.

Ad "suicide=selfish;suicide=easy way out": Addressed this in an earlier post (page 3 or so). These are cliché's, and if you actually consider telling them to a potential suicide, chances are that s/he's heard that not once, not twice, but a thousand times before, and s/he's decided to kill her/himself despite of that. It's more likely that saying this will have you (general you) labelled as "just another one who doesn't (even try to) understand" (bracket comments are the extreme version). Another step towards isolation.

i agree with u there Dawnstorm, there is alot of truth with what u've said, and to pilfish, i meant most cases of suicides have been when the person has depression though some cases don't and stuff like it could be one big event or something like jealously that can drive people to suicide. sorry if i was a bit too generalised

If you don't have the will to live, or you think your life is meaningless or not worth it than suicide is probably the answer.

I just don't believe that. You have to find a reason to live, that is the whole point of life to begin with, or to just live is a nice choice. Why throw everything away when there is always a chance. Even if someone says there isn't a chance...it just isn't true. There is always change, which I myself have seen. Besides, just living is a good enough reason to live. Killing yourself is a cowardly way out, selfish even.

Don't knock it 'til you've tried it.

Suicide is like a way of showing you're scared of life and that you're selfish, and I realized that much when I was considering why I should even remain alive.

Suicide is stupid. Most people who are thinking about comitting suicide are a bunch of losers who are depressed. Really, it's okay to be depressed, but there are just too many ignorant people out there who whine about their life, when in fact, some other person on the other side of the world would happily trade lives. I know a person who has recently lost his mother in cancer, and all his other relatives, including his brothers, sisters and grandparents in a war bombing some time ago. He never met his father.

That's something to be depressed about. Not some cheap crap like "NO ONE LOVES ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!". <_<

I TOTALLY agree with Noir on this.

Suicide is stupid. Most people who are thinking about comitting suicide are a bunch of losers who are depressed. Really, it's okay to be depressed, but there are just too many ignorant people out there who whine about their life, when in fact, some other person on the other side of the world would happily trade lives. I know a person who has recently lost his mother in cancer, and all his other relatives, including his brothers, sisters and grandparents in a war bombing some time ago. He never met his father.

That's something to be depressed about. Not some cheap crap like "NO ONE LOVES ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!". <_<

I disagree with all of this. People who are thinking about suicide are most cetainly not losers. Just because you don't understand why they would ever think something like this doesn't mean they are losers. Tell me, have you been in their state? Do you even know what it's like to be in that state? You aren't a loser for thinking something. You are a loser for not doing (or doing) something. I know people who are think about suicide, and believe me, they are not stupid, or a loser. They are extremely intelligent. This is nothing but a ridiculious stereotype.

Another thing, by your theory of who can whine about their life and who can't, it's really bad. You see, by your theory, no one can complain about their life, or talk about their problems, because there can always be found someone who as it worse. Depression can't be measured by accidents, incidents, or events. It varies by person. In other words, a person who doesn't have any friends and is bullied in school can be far more depressed than a person who's lost a parent, has no friends, and is failing school.

It really can't be measured, and depends on the person. That doesn't mean it is more likely that the person who is simply bullied in school is more depressed, it just means you can't assume the person who lost his parent is more depressed. Of course, as these situations contrast more and more, it will be more and more likely that the one with more stressfull events put upon them will be more depressed and suicidal.

Also, lonliness isn't any cheap crap. Lonliness is a lot more horrible than you can imagine. More horrible than death itself. Lonliness can be one of the most overwhelming things. In fact, lonliness is what many people feel after a parent, or a loved one has died. I can go on and on about this, but I will wait to see how you reply to this post first.

Perhaps the people you wish to talk about who don't have the right to complain, are the ones who just want more attention. The ones who don't really have it bad, nor are depressed, just want attention to feel better then they already are about themselfs. Yeah. This is stupid. And people who do that really piss me off. Because they don't really need the attention or help, just want it.

Noir has it right. Maybe not so much the harsh language, but it's true you must be selfish, and it's usually your imagination making you the victims of such things. Unless you don't have REAL problems, then suicide is a stupid and immature thing to consider or do. :\

Like he said, something like, "NOBODY LOVES ME!!!" is a stupid thing to fuss over about. Either way, only some people even care three shits about you (I did an experiment and everything).

Whether suicide or not is stupid is debatable. But it's totally and utterly besides the point. There are people who will never understand the suicidal condition (and that's not a bad thing; they're to be envied); and among those some will have the compulsion to call suicidal tendencies stupid/selfish/a permanent solution to a temporary problem. This is rarely helpful, and often water on the mill.

Why do you need to have real problems to commit suicide? Who are you to judge what a good problem is, and what a bad one is, for it to be worth considering suicide? Depression does not have to come from a problem to exist, though it often does. And like I said earlier, how depressed a person gets varies with the person.

Saying "no one loves me" is often more a cry for mere attention when voiced in such a way, but if the person truly feels that, I think it is a very, very serious problem. None of you have yet to explain how you figured out what was acceptable and what was unacceptable for suicide. Did you just pull these ouf of the air?

Disagreeing with Noir and Marlon, I reckon Nightmare has it right.

Have either of you ever been in a depressive state?

clockwerk, are you kidding me?

As far as depression goes, the most dangerous part of being in the depressive state is when you start to recover from it, because that's when most people apparently find the strength to try something like suicide. *shrug* As far as suicidal tendencies go, it apparently runs in my family, so I guess the best I can hope for is that I never get to that point, right? 'Sides, there's stuff I need to tell people before I go, and that could take friggen centuries. :what:

Magic Kitty, if you are considering suicide, I don't think that's a sign of recovering from it. I think it just means you are becoming even more depressed.

As far as depression goes, the most dangerous part of being in the depressive state is when you start to recover from it, because that's when most people apparently find the strength to try something like suicide.
??

I don't think people are gaining strength if they are leaning towards suicide.

They are gaining strength; physical strength, that is, to allow them to pursue methods of their own undoing. Not mental health.

Sorry, but you don't get physical strength from thought in itself. You get it from exercise, eating right, and things of that sort. Almost everyone has the potential strength to kill themself, just not the mentality to do it. You do not get more physical strenth the more depressed you get.

I can safely say that I don't know why I posted in the first place.

Well, I think people who want to kill themselves are overreacting. If everyone killed themselves just because they were depressed or sad or hurt, the world would have half of it's population (maybe more) right now. I am, let's count all of the Third World countries' populations, added with all of the depressive people caused by recent nature problems, and there you go. Half of the population is gone.

Now, I personally do not want to kill myself, I just want to see what would happen afterwards. Like, afterlife and things, who is right and wrong, and all that. But, I guess I will have to patiently wait.

And is there a problem with half the population of the world being gone?

Magic Kitty, if you are considering suicide, I don't think that's a sign of recovering from it. I think it just means you are becoming even more depressed.


??

I don't think people are gaining strength if they are leaning towards suicide.

I think, you misunderstand.

It's not the suicidal thoughts that give strength; it's the receding of a bout of depression that lets you regain strength. Depression releases chemicals in your brain that make doing things hard (kind of like swallowing tranquilizers). I remember trying to lift my little finger and considering it an accomplishment at the peak of depression. Simply put, your too down, then, to kill yourself, even if you wish you'd die right now. What you do is, you wait until your better, and THEN you kill yourself. That's why, statistically, most people kill themselves when a bout of depression recedes.

I think that's what Magic Kitty was referring to.

***

That said, the actual decision to kill yourself has been known to "give strength", as well. It's because, after a long time trying to live with alien motivations, the suicide has finally found an inner motivation. Some suicides appear to get better before they kill themselves. It's a common nasty surprise for friends & relatives, who think their loved one has finally pulled him/herself together. They're cleaning up their rooms, they're throwing out old stuff, they write letters and generally don't mope around anymore. The relatives think they're trying to get back into their life, but instead they're wrapping it up.

and Nightmare has a point, human's overrun this world 'like rabbits' so wat's wrong with half the population gone, i mean, there'd be less pollution for starters. how can u say that people who think about committing suicide are overreacting? have u ever experienced their depression? have you experienced their problems? no, i thought not, now before u ever say something like that again, think about y people commit suicide. everyone comes up with there stupid views on suicide, thinking that suicidal victims are cowards, they're overreacting, etc. but it just shows how little they actually understand. u can't be a coward to commit suicide, every living thing's first instinct is to survive, it's an imprint, a strong one and it makes it hard to cause one's self harm. to commit suicide they have to be realyl strong willed and determined, and whoever heard of a coward who was strong willed and determined?

Dawnstorm=wat u say is right, when people are depressed, they are so down they can't do anything, all they can do sometimes is think completely negative thoughts about themselves and the world, they blame themselves for everything and some decide to commit suicide, so when they next have the strentgh or will to commit suicide, they do it. however the last bit u said about suicide giving strentgh to the suicide's families, i don't agree, alot of the time, most families can have no idea y their relative commited suicide. depressed and suicidal people don't tell people how they feel and wat they think, they don't want anyone else to feel the way that they are. so i'd say most family's get thrown into turmoil and while some appear to move on, there is always that question "why did they do it?" that is always playing on their conscience. also alot of suicide's don't leave notes or letters behind so families can't move on.

however the last bit u said about suicide giving strentgh to the suicide's families, i don't agree,

Oops, sorry, I wasn't clear. I didn't mean to say a suicide gives strength to the suicide's family. I meant to say that the decision to actually commit suicide sometimes gives strength to the suicide; not only to kill themselves, but also to live until the time. They appear a lot more relaxed, they're no longer dithering, etc.

This is/appears to be a positive change, but relatives tend to see that as a sign that the suicide has found back into his/her life, when they're really just preparing to leave. That's often a nasty surprise for them. Apart from the openly malicious revenge suicides, this type must be the hardest for the relatives in terms of shock value.

Nope. Not a problem at all for me. Majority of those half of the population are destroying the world. The less the better.

lol glad u see the world's population that way lol
oh sorry, i didn't understand wat u meant Dawnstorm (nice name) but yeah i guess u could say that, i mean i don't think most relatives would think that they are preparing to leave, i think that they'll think that the suicide is getting better finally, so they get all shocked and suprised and can blame themselves about the suicide. which in itself is unfair on the family

You know in a SF short story I read a Martian who was helping people solve the world's problems, one suggestion he makes is to eliminate half the world's population, reluctantly the people negotiating with it agreed, at twelve noon the next day every woman and girl on the planet dropped dead. Interesting huh?

very interesting. and depressing for everybody in one way or another.

and Nightmare has a point, human's overrun this world 'like rabbits' so wat's wrong with half the population gone, i mean, there'd be less pollution for starters. how can u say that people who think about committing suicide are overreacting? have u ever experienced their depression? have you experienced their problems? no, i thought not, now before u ever say something like that again, think about y people commit suicide. everyone comes up with there stupid views on suicide, thinking that suicidal victims are cowards, they're overreacting, etc. but it just shows how little they actually understand. u can't be a coward to commit suicide, every living thing's first instinct is to survive, it's an imprint, a strong one and it makes it hard to cause one's self harm. to commit suicide they have to be realyl strong willed and determined, and whoever heard of a coward who was strong willed and determined?

You speak of suicide as if it was a skill of some sort.

And why would I not share my views on suicide just because I haven't considered it myself? That's like me asking you to stop typing because you can't even spell easy words such as "why" and "you".

pifish- Every other WOMAN and GIRL? Cheap...

Population control at its finest, Dominate.

Well, then they should kill off every other man, too, that way, extreme population control.

i've tried it many times....and could bring myself to do it....i felt so lonley and i still do.....torn emtionally....hated because i'm not like the popular people my best.... best friend left me......so yeah i've tryed it mostly and all the time...

Yo, that's weird.

You are very insecure, and you have a need to be accepted. Why don't you (since obviously you have nothing to lose, since you are trying to kill yourself) try not to care what others think (as, you apparently already know that everyone hates you, well, at your school anyways, or else you wouldn't be so lonely) and do whatever you want? Think of it as a freedom, now you have no more restraints of trying to fit in, because that doesn't work. So just bide your time and make it your goal to beat all of them, to show that you are better, with all the extra time you have that instead of trying to commit suicide, you concentrate on your studies.

It's not always as simple as not caring what others think, and if you have the attitude "everyone hates me so why bother caring" then you are going to get more depressed.

However, thinking of it as freedom sounds like a good idea to me- it saves a lot of stress and upset if you don't feel you fit in because you arent trying to anymore. And another thought is: why should you bother to fit in with people who dont bother to fit in with you? surely this should work both ways?

it's a good idea and people often respect people more if they just be their own person (well the pplz i know anyway) so just be urself, find what you are good at, and beat everyone else at it.

suicide is not a skill, it is a problem that is rarely understood by the general public.

Yes, I don't know why people care about what other people think so much.

Knowledge is power, and most people have a desire to know all kinds of things.

Yes, but, what does that have to do with knowing what other people think of them? Or caring.

People need to know if they are accepted, nobody wants to be a pariah.

... Er, yes, of course.

Hey it was a perfectly legitimate answer.

Nobody...? *Nobody* in the entire world? Hermits...

But hermits normally choose to leave society, pariahs are outcast because of something they did or didn't do.

Eh, all right. It is just that, I myself, don't try to fit in at all, and I get along fine.

pifish doesn't understand that concept. his mind is too stereotypical.
i think people care about wat other think cause some people would rather people don't make biest or stereotypical comments about things like suicide and stuff and want others to actually understand the subject under viewing better and understand the situation others are in.

So you're saying that the only reason people want to know what others think is to prevent them placing a terrible faux pas in a touchy subject, or to help people gain better understanding? I don't think everyone is that selfless.

Please, anyone who cares (a lot to the point if people don't leads them to suicide) about what other people think probably is very low self-esteemed and sensitive.

I cannot really stand these types of people, so I may come off as a little harsh. But I feel that people should be more independent.

gr... pifish, if u read my post carefully, u'd see that i wrote SOME PEOPLE not all people, ok?
that depends on what different people's perceptions are, if it's about ur self, then well yes u must have really low self esteem but if it's wat other people think of ur friends and it hurts ur friends, then no, i don't think it's low self esteem, i think it's caring about ur friends and not wanting to see them picked on all the time.
also, with suicide and death, other people's opinions hold a big role. alot of people keep saying suicide's no big, depression's stupid, just snap out of it, and these views affect the suicide or depressed person for the worse and can push these people to suicide. i'm not saying that it's the sole reason, there is never just one reason, i'm just saying it's a reason that can affect alot of people majorly.

My Sociology textbook says that suicide is actually societies fault :mellow:

I think that's referring to the second-type depression that I was talking about.

My Sociology textbook says that suicide is actually societies fault :mellow:

I don't know your textbook, but if it talks about "faults", it may not be a very good one. Social factors do contribute to the "suicide risk", but that's all sociology can say, really. I'd be interested to hear more, though. What does it say to support that statement? Who do they quote? Things like that.

Socities fault? That's like an obese person blaming McDonald's for becoming fat.

Sort of, but you have a choice of whether you eat at McDonalds or not. You can't choose what people say to you, however. Just how you respond to it. You can respond to how you eat at McDonalds to, by exercizing daily.

A few month ago, I read "Unbearable Lightness of Being" by Milan Kundera. He wrote about the situation when you're standing on a very high bridge and looking downwards. When you get dizzy, you aren't just afraid of falling down, but you're also sort of attracted by the depth, by the idea of falling down and letting yourself go. It's the inner battle between these two "sprouts" which makes you vertiginous.

Could it be that some people have a deep desire to die, independent from their circumstances, family situation, etc. and that these circumstances are just kind of a trigger for committing suicide?

sorry, posted this twice accidentially.

A few month ago, I read "Unbearable Lightness of Being" by Milan Kundera. He wrote about the situation when you're standing on a very high bridge and looking downwards. When you get dizzy, you aren't just afraid of falling down, but you're also sort of attracted by the depth, by the idea of falling down and letting yourself go. It's the inner battle between these two "sprouts" which makes you vertiginous.

Could it be that some people have a deep desire to die, independent from their circumstances, family situation, etc. and that these circumstances are just kind of a trigger for committing suicide?

How would you know that someone would have a deep desire to die?

I suppose you cant really know that, but it does sound intriguing. I think that suicide is more of a way out than anything else.

I suppose you cant really know that, but it does sound intriguing. I think that suicide is more of a way out than anything else.

I totally agree. It really depends on your situation. You can suicide to try to 'get out', but you can also suicide in an attempt to live a second life, a second chance. That mostly applies to those who are strongly in belief of reincarnation. It's sad in a way, but for some reason I am very interested in it.

A few month ago, I read "Unbearable Lightness of Being" by Milan Kundera. He wrote about the situation when you're standing on a very high bridge and looking downwards. When you get dizzy, you aren't just afraid of falling down, but you're also sort of attracted by the depth, by the idea of falling down and letting yourself go. It's the inner battle between these two "sprouts" which makes you vertiginous.

Could it be that some people have a deep desire to die, independent from their circumstances, family situation, etc. and that these circumstances are just kind of a trigger for committing suicide?

You're funny. We could get along.

I don't think its funny Why does the answer to being have to be living? Living is no more then suffering because you only strive for more, work for more and strive for even more.

With death comes release from the cycle. Philosophically, death is the answer to so much more in life because almost everything ends in pain.

[thank you buddha <3
...
yet some how his holiness the dali lama is really happy
-_-]

You have a point, but always striving for something and then finally accomplishing it also releases that same satisfaction that dying seems to have on those who are ready for it.

I didn't mean that. :mellow:

Edit: @Minori under this post:
It's quite alright. I just thought RD was critisizing me of something I did not mean to imply. You posted before I could. That's all.

Oh, sorry about the misconception then, carry on *strolls off*

How on earth could suicide possibly be selfish?

*peaks back* Maybe they mean it in a way like, if you kill yourself, you're supposedly relieving yourself of your pain, but at the same time you're leaving other poeple behind who care about you and have to deal with grieving for you. In a way you're creating suffering for them and supposed freedom for yourself. I can't think of any other way suicide could be seen as selfish

How on earth could suicide possibly be selfish?

I know the effects of suicide on the friends, family and whole community personally. It's horrible. Though I seemed to preach pro-suicide, I am 100% against it because its usually over small things that will be fixed throughout life, and its also usually younger folks who don't know what having it really bad is really like.

and its also usually younger folks who don't know what having it really bad is really like.
I'm pretty sure anyone who kills themselves is "having it bad."
Like the saying goes; you can make a heaven out of hell, or a hell out of heaven. Or whatever it is. Anyway, my point is that it doesn't matter if some kid in Africa is poor - if he has enough love/happiness in his life to keep him going, then in a way, his life isn't as bad as a rich kid's who felt sad enough to kill herself.

And who is more selfish? The suicidee for killing themselves and causing the people who love them pain? Or the people who love them, for wanting them around, even when they don't wish to be around anymore? X3
Hmm.....

You being up a very good point about selfishness, and now my mind hurts. Good night xD

And who is more selfish? The suicide for killing themselves and causing the people who love them pain? Or the people who love them, for wanting them around, even when they don't wish to be around anymore? X3
Hmm.....

That's such an amazing thought. It's so pretty. I love it!

I've never thought of it as being selfish to commit suicide. I mean, I get happy when people miss me! At least I did back when I was thinking about how nice it'd be to die. That was about 3 years back, however. Right now life's too fun to die.

People say that if you commit suicide, you go to hell. It's a sin, like murder.

People who commit suicide are brave. You might call them cowardly...but well, it takes a whole lot of guts to try and kill yourself.

People who commit suicide are brave. You might call them cowardly...but well, it takes a whole lot of guts to try and kill yourself.

It also takes a "whole lot of guts" to murder someone (else) in cold blood. Would you consider that bravery as well?

Well..brave but stupid. Wait, actually no. You don't need to be brave to kill someone you don't like. But killing yourself! I'd rather kill someone else than kill myself! Imagine standing there thinking that your life is going to be all over soon!

its a cowards way out. they are to afraid to face life and try and beat back their problems so they kill them selves just so they don't have to be scared anymore. I think suicide is definitely a cowardly thing because it takes courage to live, not to die.

It also takes a "whole lot of guts" to murder someone (else) in cold blood. Would you consider that bravery as well?
Duh. Wouldn't you? If I hate someone enough to think they deserve to die, and I go ahead and kill them despite the fact that it may very well ruin my life, I think that'd warrant a "bravery" medal. ;P


its a cowards way out. they are to afraid to face life and try and beat back their problems so they kill them selves just so they don't have to be scared anymore. I think suicide is definitely a cowardly thing because it takes courage to live, not to die.
It's a cowards way out? Why is it cowardly to quit something you don't enjoy anymore? If you're in a boxing match getting the sh!t kicked out of you, is it "brave" to keep on fighting anyway, even though it's impossible to win? I'd think it'd be braver to swallow your pride and give up, but that's just me. The bravery you're talking about is the stupid romantic kind shown in anime. Someone who commits suicide because they simply don't want to live anymore is showing another kind of bravery - the kind where you get what you want done, even if it's painful and/or scary.

Anime bravery says: I WILL FIGHT TO THE END, EVEN THOUGH IT WON'T HELP ME AT ALL, AND WILL JUST CAUSE TONS OF PAIN EVERYWHERE!!~!~
Coherent bravery says: If I can't win, I may as well give up. There's no use continuing something I don't wish to continue.

Anime bravery looks cool in movies, but if you think about it for a minute, you realize how stupid and pointless it really is. X3

Anime bravery says: I WILL FIGHT TO THE END, EVEN THOUGH IT WON'T HELP ME AT ALL, AND WILL JUST CAUSE TONS OF PAIN EVERYWHERE!!~!~
Coherent bravery says: If I can't win, I may as well give up. There's no use continuing something I don't wish to continue.

Anime bravery looks cool in movies, but if you think about it for a minute, you realize how stupid and pointless it really is. X3Do you think that the people who died for their beliefs died pointlessly?

Do you think that the people who died for their beliefs died pointlessly?
what's got this to do with the subject? xD

Suicide isn't selfish. People mostly commit suicide because they don't have any friends, and the situation at home is mostly bad. So they don't have anyone, so no one would feel bad if they died..


Hmpf it sucks that I'm not very good in English, I can't say what's exactly on my mind =/.

hm, I think it would still be quite a shock/painful for your classmates for example or the teachers or other people who might be caused to believe that they failed (which they obviously did).

what's got this to do with the subject? xDI suppose I could twist it and say that "Some people believe that they can free up resources to those more committing to live by committing suicide", but in all honesty I was asking that question to set up an argument to the bits I quoted.

hm, I think it would still be quite a shock/painful for your classmates for example or the teachers or other people who might be caused to believe that they failed (which they obviously did).
That's true, but they wouldn't 'die'..

Duh. Wouldn't you? If I hate someone enough to think they deserve to die, and I go ahead and kill them despite the fact that it may very well ruin my life, I think that'd warrant a "bravery" medal. ;P

Nah. That's not "bravery" so much as ignorance/stupidity for not understanding the situation/consequences, and/or stubbornness/arrogance for not being able to admit other interpretations of the situation.

Bravery/courage becomes much less so when its primary effect on those around you is negative, and even more less so when the action is undertaken with limited knowledge of the situation.

Do you think that the people who died for their beliefs died pointlessly?
::Shrug::
That depends. Did the people dying for their beliefs actually you know, help anyone?

Nah. That's not "bravery" so much as ignorance/stupidity for not understanding the situation/consequences, and/or stubbornness/arrogance for not being able to admit other interpretations of the situation.

I just said I did understand the consequences, yet didn't fear them. Hence bravery.
What the hell does the second part even mean? That I'm too stubborn to admit the interpretation that the person I think deserves to die doesn't deserve to die? That doesn't even make any sense!

That depends. Did the people dying for their beliefs actually you know, help anyone?Let's have a "Yes" scenario and a "No" scenario.

Hmmm...alright then.
Yes Scenario:
300 Spartans fight to the death and inspire their country to stand up and fight off the invading Persians. (lol ;))

No Scenario:
Three armed thugs corner a man in a dark alley with nobody else around. Apparently, he'd met them a few nights ago at a bar. While extremely drunk, the man insulted the three thugs' mother. (They're brothers. Armed, angry brothers!) They tell the man that if he doesn't apologize for calling their mother all sorts of horrible names, they'll kill him. If he apologizes, they'll leave him be. The man, believing he has nothing to apologize for because of his being extremely drunk at the time of the offense, refuses, choosing to die for what he believes in instead.

So there, a yes and no scenario. I don't see why you needed me to come up with them; it didn't take much imagination at all. ;)

I'm pretty sure anyone who kills themselves is "having it bad."

And who is more selfish? The suicidee for killing themselves and causing the people who love them pain? Or the people who love them, for wanting them around, even when they don't wish to be around anymore? X3
Hmm.....

Teenager suicide is more common then suicide in any other age group. What do teenagers have to complain about? From what I've seen, teenagers go suicide over young love, test scores and grades, other suicides, moving and family problems. Its all stupid things that isn't going to end your life [no pun].

I think the person who goes suicidal is the selfish. The most pristine age in life is probably young childhood, where all you know is fun and to love everything and everyone [other then broccoli, bleh..]. That is example enough that life is precious and should be cherished so you can have more generations experience life and its joys.

Cambodian Genocide is worse then your girlfriend dumping you imo... My parents didn't kill themselves from it so SUCK IT UP

And aren't you a teenager yourself, RD? If you were to contemplate suicide, what would it be for?

Yeah, RD. What would drive you to suicide?
I think there's a main difference between suicidal people and non-suicidal people. Suicidal people see life as a burden, rather than a gift. So the logic "OMG SUCK IT UP LOL, YOUR LIFE WILL BE BETTER TOMORROW" doesn't work for them, since they don't want to be alive tomorrow.

Some people are built to live, and some people aren't. I don't see what's wrong or selfish about that. X3

Cambodian Genocide is worse then your girlfriend dumping you imo... My parents didn't kill themselves from it so SUCK IT UP

If your parents didn't kill themselves from it, then perhaps genocide isn't as bad as a broken heart? I don't see how you would know, as you're not a genocide victim. ;P

I just said I did understand the consequences, yet didn't fear them. Hence bravery.

That person had a job. If he were a doctor, someone's not getting treatment now. That person had a family. What if that family turns vigilante and starts an all-out feud with yours? Or what if that person were the main breadwinner of the family? By consequences I certainly don't mean just the consequences that directly affect you. That's quite selfish, isn't it?


If your parents didn't kill themselves from it, then perhaps genocide isn't as bad as a broken heart? I don't see how you would know, as you're not a genocide victim. ;P

(1) There were several Holocaust prisoners who chose to throw themselves at the electric fences rather than continue to deal with such inhuman treatment.
(2) Genocide is serious. Making a statement such as yours, even in jest, greatly hurts your credibility. Surely if you understood the consequences of genocide in contrast to those of a broken heart, you wouldn't even attempt to make such an argument?

That said...


My parents didn't kill themselves from it so SUCK IT UP

Why are you using your parents' suffering to your own advantage by using it in order to attack other people's positions?


What the hell does the second part even mean? That I'm too stubborn to admit the interpretation that the person I think deserves to die doesn't deserve to die? That doesn't even make any sense!

First, this statement was made more generally, referring to any action to which you might contemplate labelling as bravery.

The only thing that would make no sense is if you were to, out of the blue, decide that "John Doe" deserves to die and then carry it out. If you were to do that, I would not call you brave, I would call you psychotic. Clearly, John Doe must have done something that made you decide that he deserves to die. That decision is based on your interpretation of that action.
Example of ignorance: John Doe uses a hand gesture that in his culture is a friendly greeting but in yours is a serious insult. You proceed to return an insult and/or beat him up.
Example of stubbornness: John Doe beats you at underwater basket weaving. You're convinced that no one could possibly be better than you at underwater basket weaving, so you accuse him of cheating and/or beat him up.
In neither case would I consider your actions brave.


Hmmm...alright then.
Yes Scenario:
300 Spartans fight to the death and inspire their country to stand up and fight off the invading Persians. (lol )

No Scenario:
Three armed thugs corner a man in a dark alley with nobody else around. Apparently, he'd met them a few nights ago at a bar. While extremely drunk, the man insulted the three thugs' mother. (They're brothers. Armed, angry brothers!) They tell the man that if he doesn't apologize for calling their mother all sorts of horrible names, they'll kill him. If he apologizes, they'll leave him be. The man, believing he has nothing to apologize for because of his being extremely drunk at the time of the offense, refuses, choosing to die for what he believes in instead.

So there, a yes and no scenario. I don't see why you needed me to come up with them; it didn't take much imagination at all.

See how neatly this fits into my argument of understanding consequences? The Spartans knew that surrendering would be horrible for Greek morale, and the Spartans can't bank on the Persians allowing them to live. They understood ALL of the consequences of making a stand beyond what would happen to them alone. The drunk man, on the other hand, clearly was not in a position to understand the consequences of his actions.

I don't think Hopeless was talking about the ethical worth of the "bravery" and the consequences, but about the "guts" it takes. "Bravery" is a bad choice of words in this case, because it's too "positive". Bravery often indicates an act of courage with morally correct consequences . If you get what I mean ._.

I don't think Hopeless was talking about the ethical worth of the "bravery" and the consequences, but about the "guts" it takes. "Bravery" is a bad choice of words in this case, because it's too "positive". Bravery often indicates an act of courage with morally correct consequences . If you get what I mean ._.

Aye, I was using the word according to it's definition, not to what random people associate with it. ;)

Tanonev, you keep on making up random examples as to why my killing John Doe was not bravery. I don't see the point in this, as I could also very easily make up an example where you would consider it bravery. Of course, I thought that'd be obvious to you, so I didn't bother doing so. From now on, I guess I'll have to be more blatantly obvious when arguing with you. Oh wait, I did openly say that I understood the consequences before killing Mr Doe, and you chose to ignore that and go "NO YOU DIDN'T LOL! HE WAS A DOCTOR!~!!" First of all, this is my pretend murder victim, not yours. Mr Doe is not a doctor, he is a priest. Second of all, I said I understood the consequences. I don't see how you can go "No you don't!" with a murder that doesn't even exist. :rolleyes:

There were several Holocaust prisoners who chose to throw themselves at the electric fences rather than continue to deal with such inhuman treatment.
Several? In that case, something tells me that more suicides can be accredited to broken hearts than to genocide.

Genocide is serious. Making a statement such as yours, even in jest, greatly hurts your credibility. Surely if you understood the consequences of genocide in contrast to those of a broken heart, you wouldn't even attempt to make such an argument?
Genocide is serious! People die! Oh my God! Guess what! That makes broken hearts serious too then, since people also die from that. I don't see how confused, lonely teens are less important than Jewish people or Africans. Surely, you're not suggesting they aren't; that would certainly hurt your credibility. ;)

I wasn't saying that genocide wasn't bad. I was saying that there is a good chance that more people have been driven to suicide because of failed romances than genocide situations. If that's true (care to look it up?), then I think that tells us something about genocide situations:
the victims of said genocide have more hope/more reason to continue living/more happiness than the heart broken teens killing themselves. Otherwise, why wouldn't they be committing suicide, like said teens?

I don't know the suicide numbers for say, the Holocaust; it'd be interesting if someone could bring them up. I do know that one American dies every 18 minutes because of suicide.(http://www.psychologicalselfhelp.org/Chapter6.pdf) Now, there are 190 countries in the world. So if we take the American death rate, and call it the average for the planet (America isn't that bad a country to live in, is it?), then we get about 200 people dying every 20 minutes because of suicide.

That's 600 people dying an hour.
That's 14,400 people dying a day.
That's 432,000 people dying a month.
That's 5,256,000 people dying a year.

Of course, I doubt the number is nearly that high, as most countries aren't nearly the size of America. Still, something tells me that we're losing more people to suicide because of failed romance than to genocide. So which one is more serious, Tanonev? Which one has more consequences?

Oh, and for the record, my genocide comment wasn't in jest. You probably already figured that out though.
There goes my credibility! ;D

I don't see how you can go "No you don't!" with a murder that doesn't even exist.

Actually, I can. Unless your John Doe spontaneously appeared on the face of the planet and never made contact with any other human being, I can guarantee you that you haven't considered all the consequences. Why? Look over your comment again. You said in this hypothetical situation that you would "kill them despite the fact that it may very well ruin my life." Just your life? In that case, the only way you could have considered all the consequences is if your life were the only one he were connected to, even remotely.


I don't know the suicide numbers for say, the Holocaust; it'd be interesting if someone could bring them up. I do know that one American dies every 18 minutes because of suicide. Now, there are 190 countries in the world. So if we take the American death rate, and call it the average for the planet (America isn't that bad a country to live in, is it?), then we get about 200 people dying every 20 minutes because of suicide.

That's 600 people dying an hour.
That's 14,400 people dying a day.
That's 432,000 people dying a month.
That's 5,256,000 people dying a year.

Of course, I doubt the number is nearly that high, as most countries aren't nearly the size of America. Still, something tells me that we're losing more people to suicide because of failed romance than to genocide. So which one is more serious, Tanonev? Which one has more consequences?

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:Wmwxnh_LRTMJ:www.newscientist.com/article.ns%3Fid%3Ddn6373+suicide+rates+global&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&client=firefox-a

Off by at least a factor of 5. What you should have done is looked at America's percentage population of the world and extrapolated from there. That 190 country thing is completely illogical. Why? Let's pretend that every nation in the world besides the US splits in two on the map. Whoa, the suicide rate of the world just doubled because we drew some extra lines on a piece of paper!

In addition, there is NOT a negative correlation between quality of life and suicide rate.
http://www.haciendapub.com/stolinsky.html
Mexico's suicide rate is less than a third that of the US. I highly doubt you'd argue that Mexico's quality of life is better than that of the US. (In fact, wouldn't this support the argument that people who commit suicide do so for all the wrong reasons? If the people best off are the ones most likely to commit suicide, then they're also the ones with the least valid justifications.)

More importantly, those are the rates for suicide in general. Those are NOT the figures for suicide over a broken heart. Certainly you're not claiming that failed romance accounts for the majority of suicides? This fact sheet about suicide (http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/factsheets/suifacts.htm) doesn't even mention failed romance as a cause. This list of suicide causes (http://www.suicide.org/suicide-causes.html) mentions it as only one of 35 different causes.


Several? In that case, something tells me that more suicides can be accredited to broken hearts than to genocide.

was saying that there is a good chance that more people have been driven to suicide because of failed romances than genocide situations. If that's true (care to look it up?), then I think that tells us something about genocide situations:
the victims of said genocide have more hope/more reason to continue living/more happiness than the heart broken teens killing themselves. Otherwise, why wouldn't they be committing suicide, like said teens?

Or maybe, just maybe, that's because in genocide OTHER people kill you before you get the chance to kill yourself?


So which one is more serious, Tanonev? Which one has more consequences?

(1) Where did I say or imply that suicide was not a serious issue? I made that remark in response to your claims about a broken heart. Look at it this way: How many people have had their hearts broken? (Just about everyone.) How many of those people have died (i.e., committed suicide) as a result? (AT MOST 15 out of 100000, or 0.015%, since that's the total suicide rate, and broken hearts certainly don't account for all of the suicides.) Now, how many people have been victims of genocide? How many of those people have died as a result?
(2) Clearly you misread my use of consequences. I used that word in the context of the person committing the act understanding all the consequences before doing so. Furthermore, I used that in the context of distinguishing bravery from stupidity. I made no connections whatsoever to any severity of any act. Or, to give an example, automobile accidents claim many lives a year. They certainly are a serious issue. Would you consider a person brave simply because he got in a fatal automobile accident?


Aye, I was using the word according to it's definition, not to what random people associate with it.

You mean random people like Aristotle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courage)? Understanding a word's denotation without understanding its connotation is little better than knowing the word at all.
But, if we go by the letter of the definition, bravery is boldness in the face of fear or pain. If you take an action with the intent of lessening your pain (to use your example, teens with a broken heart commit suicide because they believe death isn't as painful as living with a broken heart), then that is BY DEFINITION not bravery. If your action produces the opposite effect and it clearly was not your only nor your best option, then that is BY DEFINITION stupidity.

Yeah, RD. What would drive you to suicide?
I think there's a main difference between suicidal people and non-suicidal people. Suicidal people see life as a burden, rather than a gift. So the logic "OMG SUCK IT UP LOL, YOUR LIFE WILL BE BETTER TOMORROW" doesn't work for them, since they don't want to be alive tomorrow.

Some people are built to live, and some people aren't. I don't see what's wrong or selfish about that. X3


If your parents didn't kill themselves from it, then perhaps genocide isn't as bad as a broken heart? I don't see how you would know, as you're not a genocide victim. ;P

I went halfway through the process of hanging myself a year ago because of test scores.

And you know what, shut up. You need to shut it about a broken heart being worse then genocide. If what you say is true, how about put all the broken hearted teens in Darfur right now and take out the people who are ACTUALY suffering

Date - 2003–present
Location - Darfur
Result - Humanitarian catastrophe (est. 200,000-400,000 or more dead and 2,500,000 refugees)

Thousands are killed AGAINST their own will in brutal manners IN FRONT of their families and friends. CHILDREN, WOMEN AND MEN. No one is spared. Millions are hiding and running every day, even refugee camps aren't safe because they aren't protected well enough.

I lost all respect for you. Comparing suicide to genocide is so low and dirty.


I answer DNA, I said it would be either over test scores or a broken heart. From what I've seen, I can get my grades up from even a C to a low A in matters of days. And even worse, the people who go out for a week and break up, its just frivolous young love. I've only seen one couple that look like they work and they are around 18.

I completely agree with RD on this matter.

Suicide cannot be compared to something such as genocide.
wiki says:
Suicide is the willful act of killing oneself.
whereas
Genocide is the mass killing of a group of people.

it really doesn't even make sense to relate one to the other.

I have a bit more to say.

I am not a genocide victim, but I have seen what It can do to people. My family is very strong, and from what I've seen, most genocide victims are very strong. I lost many uncles and aunts I've never seen but my family misses dearly. Regardless of it all, my family has risen up from literally nothing to owning bushinesses, going to college and becoming a biochemist, nurse, pharmacist and many other respecting things.

I'm trying to prove two points. 1- genocide is horrible, but I think suicide has a big problem on the family because with genocide, you can rarely stop it. But with suicide, you have that idea that you could have played a role into why the person didn't want to live and that you could have stopped it. 2- shut up and suck it up. If my family go from no money and feeling isolated to owning a business in 25 years then I don't know what to say. If your thinking about killing yourself because you can't get anywhere, it may be because your not trying hard enough.

i am with RD and tanonev on this one. suicide is (duh) bad but genocide, homicide, and many other things are worse. people who suicide generally have low self-esteem so they think in a selfish way and cause pain/confusion to everyone who knew them. a genocide/homicide victims' family will wonder if it was their fault and then will understand that they couldn't have done anything.

i am with RD and tanonev on this one. suicide is (duh) bad but genocide, homicide, and many other things are worse. people who suicide generally have low self-esteem so they think in a selfish way and cause pain/confusion to everyone who knew them. a genocide/homicide victims' family will wonder if it was their fault and then will understand that they couldn't have done anything.

Understand that they couldn't have done anything you say? Are you sure? They could have taken their family across the border, worked that extra bit harder to get some money for plane tickets, protected their loved by force etc. Or if you want to talk about murder... Given them a lift instead of letting them catch a bus, sent them to learn karate, maybe even have simply kept them at home so nothing would have happened to them...

Now I'm not saying that suicide is worse than genocide or murder, everything is equally bad. But a loss is a loss, and people are going to feel as if they should've done something to stop it, no matter how irrational it might seem.





2- shut up and suck it up. If my family go from no money and feeling isolated to owning a business in 25 years then I don't know what to say. If your thinking about killing yourself because you can't get anywhere, it may be because your not trying hard enough.



Since HopelessComposer has already said it, this might be beating a dead horse, but it wouldn't be that easy for someone who wants to kill themselves to simply say: "Oh of course, you're right, I should just pull my socks up and get on with it" after being berated and insulted, ever wonder why the generally police talk softly and calmly to people standing on the edge of bridges, instead of shouting: "HARDEN THE FUCK UP YOU STUPID KNOB!" ? In the past you've expressed your deep concern for animals RD, perhaps you should try to be as compassionate to people too.

They could have taken their family across the border, worked that extra bit harder to get some money for plane tickets, protected their loved by force etc.

HOLD A SECOND THERE. That is absurd especially if your forced into camps, theres thousands of wandering killers everywhere and if there is no jobs to get. Please think over what you said and try to see if thats even remotely possible or easily done in a country with genocide.

Now, I do agree with your second statement. I did not mean for what I said to be literal, but I do mean that people need to think about how bad others have it in the world [assuming that they all live in first world countries]. I'm also saying that because of my other statement, that suicide is usually over very stupid reasons.

now, I'm not a vegitarian anymore

I'll try to make this quick.
First of all:

I lost all respect for you. Comparing suicide to genocide is so low and dirty.
I don't think comparing suicide to genocide is low and dirty. Sorry you lost all respect for me because my opinion differs from yours. I am truly weeping for the respect you no longer hold for me; how shall I go on living without your admiration?

I completely agree with RD on this matter.

Suicide cannot be compared to something such as genocide.
wiki says:
Suicide is the willful act of killing oneself.
whereas
Genocide is the mass killing of a group of people.

it really doesn't even make sense to relate one to the other.
Of course comparing one case of genocide (eg, the Holocaust) with one case of suicide (eg, the boy down the street who failed to get into the college he wanted) doesn't make any sense. I was comparing the problem of suicide over the history of mankind to the problem of genocide over the history of mankind; though one case of genocide takes more lives than one suicide case, I think all the deaths from suicide added together over the history of man would be about equal to the total amount of deaths resulting from genocide over the history of mankind. I should have spent more time making myself clear on that. Sorry if I offended you.

I am not a genocide victim, but I have seen what It can do to people. My family is very strong, and from what I've seen, most genocide victims are very strong. I lost many uncles and aunts I've never seen but my family misses dearly. Regardless of it all, my family has risen up from literally nothing to owning bushinesses, going to college and becoming a biochemist, nurse, pharmacist and many other respecting things.
That was another point I was trying to make RD. Your family is a victim of genocide and it is strong, correct? I think that genocide, as horrible as it is, also has a silver lining; it tends to pull the victims together, and can actually bring some positives to the lives of some of it's victims. I don't think the same can be said of suicide; I think people who knew the suicide victim are only negatively affected; there's a reason why in college, if you roommate commits suicide, you have to go to counsuling for a year, and you get straight A's in all you classes automatically. Families who are victims of genocide can pull together through their loving bonds for one another and come out better in the end because of their trying (and terrible) experiences. I think suicide only destroys the families of the victims.

I did not mean for what I said to be literal, but I do mean that people need to think about how bad others have it in the world [assuming that they all live in first world countries]. I'm also saying that because of my other statement, that suicide is usually over very stupid reasons.
That's an amazingly cold statement. What may be a stupid reason to you, may mean everything in the world to someone else. That's another one of my points; you keep on saying "Suicidal people should suck it up! They don't have it as bad as others!" I think that's a ridiculous thing to say; how do you know who's really having it worse on the inside? Evidence seems to be suggesting that the suicidal person is indeed having it worse, as they feel they've lost all reason to keep on living.

@Tanonev:
I still say you can't decide the conditions of my pretend-murder. According to your logic, bravery can't even exist, as it's impossible to ever understand all the consequences of any action. I suppose you're not a romantic, eh? ;)

Off by at least a factor of 5.
Off by a factor of five? Wouldn't that still be more than a million people a year? That's still a lot of people dying, right?
And way to bring in Aristotle at the end there. I love people who do that. Why do you even bother to argue? Just find a famous philosopher who agrees with your position and mention his name! That makes you automatically correct right? Why use our own minds when we can just quote people who have been dead thousands of years?
Anyway:

But, if we go by the letter of the definition, bravery is boldness in the face of fear or pain. If you take an action with the intent of lessening your pain (to use your example, teens with a broken heart commit suicide because they believe death isn't as painful as living with a broken heart), then that is BY DEFINITION not bravery. If your action produces the opposite effect and it clearly was not your only nor your best option, then that is BY DEFINITION stupidity.
I suppose we think of suicidal people differently. You seem to think they're nothing but selfish cowards. I, on the other hand, think they're just people making a rational choice, that choice being not to continue doing something they no longer derive any joy from. Their bravery comes in when they gather up the nerve to pull the trigger of the gun pointing at their temple.
Since you love bringing up old, dead people, how about our friend Socrates? Was he a selfish coward for taking the Hemlock? Surely he had other options, correct? Somehow I doubt your friend Aristotle would agree with you. I suppose I'm correct after all! ;)

Anyway, sorry to those I offended. I never meant to imply that genocide wasn't a terrible thing. It is quite obviously one of the worst crimes humanity has ever inflicted upon itself. I was merely trying to demonstrate my opinion of suicide.

And sorry for the messiness of this post. This is the second time I wrote it; the stupid forum erased my first one. > <

Also, I'm taking a break from Ichigo's for about a month to get some quality work done. I'll talk to you all later. :)
Oh, and thanks to Pfish for voicing his unpopular opinion. It's nice to know that at least the silent minority doesn't totally disagree with me. XD

Sorry you lost all respect for me because my opinion differs from yours.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but that opinion can still be flat out WRONG. ;)


They could have taken their family across the border, worked that extra bit harder to get some money for plane tickets, protected their loved by force etc.

Sorry, but this is just too good to pass up. Perhaps you've seen some of the images of Darfur. Even if you haven't, here are a few images: There are a whole bunch of people living in straw tents in the middle of the desert. There is no food or water; all of it must be brought in by aid workers. If anyone in there wants to go somewhere, they walk. Fallen ill? Wait for the next Red Cross volunteer to come by and hope you don't die before then.
Plane tickets? The people there have no money, no way to get money, no way to do the paperwork to enter another country, and, to top it all off, no airport. Plane tickets are pretty useless without planes...
Protect their loved ones by force? They have...straw. A few bags of flour. Maybe a heavy stick. Good luck matching those up with an AK-47.

People caught in genocide do everything humanly possible to survive, and then some. Many still die, due to the overwhelmingly cruel situation. Claiming that they should have "tried harder" is being insensitive and ignorant.

Now, back to Hopeless...


I think suicide only destroys the families of the victims.

And yet you consider it brave?


I was comparing the problem of suicide over the history of mankind to the problem of genocide over the history of mankind; though one case of genocide takes more lives than one suicide case, I think all the deaths from suicide added together over the history of man would be about equal to the total amount of deaths resulting from genocide over the history of mankind. I should have spent more time making myself clear on that.

What you really need to spend time explaining is how you can consider suicide to be both a problem and brave.
Also important is that you have to be very careful when drawing parallels. In genocide, the killer and the victim are different; in suicide, they are one and the same. One consequence of this (this should be obvious, but it's good to state it anyway): The victims of genocide are the ones we consider brave. The instigators of genocide are not.


I still say you can't decide the conditions of my pretend-murder.
"I'm right, because...I say so!!!!!one!!!eleven"
OK, I'll actually respond, even though you haven't been doing so.
I haven't been "deciding conditions." I've been pointing out the consequences (here used in a DIFFERENT sense, meaning statements that can be derived from your statements and that must be true if your statements are true) of your example; that is, your example is intrinsically flawed.


According to your logic, bravery can't even exist, as it's impossible to ever understand all the consequences of any action.

I saw this coming. Reread my posts; failing to understand the consequences makes an action less brave and more stupid. Of course you can't understand all of the consequences; the only thing my logic would conclude from that is that you can't perform a 100% brave act. You can, however, perform an act that is for all practical purposes fully brave, and you do so by weighing all the practically foreseeable consequences. However, you don't do so by choosing to ignore obvious consequences.


I suppose you're not a romantic, eh?
Funny, I always thought an integral part of romance was caring about your loved one. But I guess if you want to butcher the meaning of the word "bravery," then you might as well rewrite the meaning of "romantic" to "I'll act based on how it makes ME feel." If so, then I'm not a romantic. Sorry.


Off by a factor of five? Wouldn't that still be more than a million people a year? That's still a lot of people dying, right?

Yes, but not only were you far off, you were off because of obviously flawed math. There are only two possible explanations for this: (1) You don't really know what you're doing when citing/generating statistics, or (2) you do know what you're doing but are intentionally twisting the numbers so that you can get away with your claim. Choose your poison.


And way to bring in Aristotle at the end there. I love people who do that. Why do you even bother to argue? Just find a famous philosopher who agrees with your position and mention his name! That makes you automatically correct right? Why use our own minds when we can just quote people who have been dead thousands of years?

I cited Aristotle to point out your sheer arrogance in claiming that the accepted connotation of bravery is no more than the preferences of "random" people. I promise you that if you choose to use words solely by their dictionary definitions with no regard for the connotations that have been built up from millenia of etymology and literature, your English teacher will be very upset.
More importantly, did you notice that that was an opening sentence to my argument?


Since you love bringing up old, dead people, how about our friend Socrates? Was he a selfish coward for taking the Hemlock? Surely he had other options, correct? Somehow I doubt your friend Aristotle would agree with you. I suppose I'm correct after all!

Nice try, but I wouldn't congratulate myself if I were you. Socrates received the death sentence. The hemlock was the method of execution. Sure, he could have refused it, but the guards would have been happy to provide another means of execution. Last I checked, a teenager who commits suicide would not have gotten beheaded simply because he refused to kill himself.
Exile? You have to realize that in that society, exile can be considered worse than death. Why? Because exile in his time doesn't mean "room with your uncle in Canada" like it's closer to today. Exile for him is more like "go live in a straw hut in Central Asia." A broken heart worse than death? I don't think I've seen such a society. You know why? Because such a society would have killed itself within a decade. (Actually, given the relationship turnovers I've seen, said society would be defunct before June.)


You seem to think they're nothing but selfish cowards.

Please, tell me where I claimed that. I did say that it was stupid, and I'll stand by that claim. Nowhere, though, did I mention selfishness or cowardice. Read on...


I, on the other hand, think they're just people making a rational choice, that choice being not to continue doing something they no longer derive any joy from. Their bravery comes in when they gather up the nerve to pull the trigger of the gun pointing at their temple.

Rational choice? Untreated clinical depression (read: MENTAL ILLNESS) is most often the immediate cause of suicide.
Again: 99.99% of people with a broken heart get over it enough to not commit suicide. Why couldn't that remaining .01% do so? It's not because their broken heart was any worse. It was because they lacked the resources to work through it. Yes, those people can't choose their external resources, but ultimately the struggle is internal, and if they fail, that's due to mental failings.
And I'll clarify before it becomes a problem: I'm not claiming that life can never get so bad that it'd be easier to simply end it. Being the sole survivor in a plane crash in the middle of the rain forest might qualify for a lot of people. Getting dumped by your girlfriend when the relationship hadn't even actually left the point of infatuation? Not so much. (And yes, I say infatuation, not love. Infatuation, which, by the way, takes the misnomer "romantic love," centers on the self. Love centers on the other person. If suicide is the result of the relationship's effect on the self, then that relationship is necessarily infatuation.)

As far as I can follow your argument.. you two seem to talk at cross-purposes ;)
Hopeless talks about the act of commiting suicide.
bravery = boldness

Tanonev talks about the consequences of suicide.
bravery = boldness + honorable consequences

Sorry, but this is just too good to pass up. Perhaps you've seen some of the images of Darfur. Even if you haven't, here are a few images: There are a whole bunch of people living in straw tents in the middle of the desert. There is no food or water; all of it must be brought in by aid workers. If anyone in there wants to go somewhere, they walk. Fallen ill? Wait for the next Red Cross volunteer to come by and hope you don't die before then.
Plane tickets? The people there have no money, no way to get money, no way to do the paperwork to enter another country, and, to top it all off, no airport. Plane tickets are pretty useless without planes...
Protect their loved ones by force? They have...straw. A few bags of flour. Maybe a heavy stick. Good luck matching those up with an AK-47.

People caught in genocide do everything humanly possible to survive, and then some. Many still die, due to the overwhelmingly cruel situation. Claiming that they should have "tried harder" is being insensitive and ignorant.


(This one goes to RD as well)

I didn't say that these people should have tried harder, I said that that the survivors will think that they could have done something, which is why I used those examples. So please don't call me ignorant, I might get all emo and kill myself.



And yet you consider it brave?


Why shouldn't it be? Just because it causes pain and misery doesn't mean that what that person did wasn't brave, I mean if a solider died was killed in action saving his squad then his wife, children and parents were torn apart because of it, would that mean that he wasn't being brave?

Killing yourself takes courage, just because it hurts your family doesn't mean that it wasn't brave of you to do so.



What you really need to spend time explaining is how you can consider suicide to be both a problem and brave.
Also important is that you have to be very careful when drawing parallels. In genocide, the killer and the victim are different; in suicide, they are one and the same. One consequence of this (this should be obvious, but it's good to state it anyway): The victims of genocide are the ones we consider brave. The instigators of genocide are not.


It's brave because killing yourself takes courage, but it is still a problem because people die because of it, so (what I think) Hopeless is saying is: The act of killing yourself is brave, but as many people have died because of it, it's a problem... It's like in war, war is a serious problem and people die because of it, but that doesn't mean that a single solider who preforms a brave act isn't being brave because he's in a war.



I saw this coming. Reread my posts; failing to understand the consequences makes an action less brave and more stupid. Of course you can't understand all of the consequences; the only thing my logic would conclude from that is that you can't perform a 100% brave act. You can, however, perform an act that is for all practical purposes fully brave, and you do so by weighing all the practically foreseeable consequences. However, you don't do so by choosing to ignore obvious consequences.



But then what of the solider (Yes I know I'm abusing the solider example, but it works), who simply throws himself into the fray to get his friend out alive? If he doesn't sit around and think about all the possible consequences beforehand, does this mean he didn't do a brave thing?




Funny, I always thought an integral part of romance was caring about your loved one. But I guess if you want to butcher the meaning of the word "bravery," then you might as well rewrite the meaning of "romantic" to "I'll act based on how it makes ME feel." If so, then I'm not a romantic. Sorry.


Hopeless isn't talking about the love kind of romantic, he's referring to the other kind: http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=romantic
That definition slightly conflicts with the one I have in my head, but I can't express that one in my head properly. Anyway I don't think that the definition of that word is important to the argument anyway.

Sorry that I can't respond to the rest of the points but hey:

a)They seem to revolve around killing yourself because you've got a broken heart, and to be honest I think that's a little silly too... The people are still have courage because they killed themselves, but they're still silly.

b)I simply don't understand what's being said as it's (rather obviously) a tanonev vs HopelessComposer showdown...

Anywho, I'd say that Matt is pretty much right here, it does seem that people aren't actually arguing about the same thing.

I didn't say that these people should have tried harder, I said that that the survivors will think that they could have done something, which is why I used those examples.

The sad truth is that if you're unable to move beyond the "what if" stage, then you haven't survived. You're still living the nightmare, and until you can come to terms with what happened (not understand why it happened; no one can fathom the evils that humans are capable of...by "come to terms," I mean more of an understanding that what happened was not your fault and that you're allowed to put it behind you), you're still a victim. However, "this too shall pass." Those who escape genocide eventually become survivors of genocide. They're forever changed, but they can put their past behind them.

So I'll agree that genocide/homicide victims/families go through the "what if" phase. But that's a part of the genocide itself, NOT a part of surviving genocide.

And while Matt's observation is a good one, just because we agree on some element of bravery doesn't mean that our positions are reconcilable, nor does it mean that they're not diametrically opposed. If the two stances were to be x = 1 and x = 1 + 1, isn't it clear that only one of the two statements can be correct, and that the truth of one necessitates the falsity of the other?

Allow me to clarify my position with an example. Suppose you were to come across a button that said "Do not press." You press the button. Nothing happens whatsoever. Does that require boldness? Yes. Do I consider that bravery? No.

Now say, unbeknownst to you, pressing the button results in the immediate (albeit painless) death of the presser. Again, you press the button. Boldness? Yes. Bravery? No. Why? Because any boldness had to do with pressing a button whose purpose you were unaware of. The fact that it caused your death is irrelevant, since your choice didn't take that consequence into account.

Now, *poof*, you're alive again. This time, again unbeknownst to you, the button will kill you but also bring everlasting peace on earth to the rest of humanity. You press the button. Bold? Yes. Brave? No. Again, you made a choice based on a button that told you not to press it, and any consequences of the action are irrelevant because you didn't factor them into your decision.

Last resurrection. The button does the same thing as the last one, BUT this time you know exactly what it does. You press the button. Bold? Yes. Brave? YES. This time your choice was NOT to press a button that told you not to press it, but rather a choice to sacrifice your life for the good of humanity.

Your soldier example falls into the last category. And as I'll cite from my previous posts, this example is bravery because the soldier has considered the consequences of his actions. (By the way, I wonder if any soldier would like to hear their bravery compared with that of people who commit suicide.)

I think we can sum this up this way: It's not what you do, it's why you do it. When I brought up consequences as a prerequisite for bravery, I wasn't requiring that the actual consequences needed to be good. I did, however, assert that you need to CONSIDER the consequences first.

And as for romanticism, doesn't raising the bar for bravery make me an "unrealistic idealist"? ;)


But then what of the solider (Yes I know I'm abusing the solider example, but it works), who simply throws himself into the fray to get his friend out alive? If he doesn't sit around and think about all the possible consequences beforehand, does this mean he didn't do a brave thing?

He made that decision when he signed up. He signed up with the understanding that his life would be in danger and that he would have to face that danger in order to do his duty. I doubt that any soldier would neglect to consider this before going into service.

Now before this turns into a blood pit, lemme just say for one,

all deaths are of equal, whether it be by freak accident, genocide, murder, etc. They are different types of deaths, but they all add up to the same thing... dying.

Now what is currently going on between Hopless and all dem otha people, is exactly what causes people to be driven to suicide, as Hopless was just saying, he felt overwhelmed by sadness, and I don't know if he was really crying or not, still, it is what an individual feels about his personal insight on life. Whether it be the feeling of being alone, deep regret, low self-esteem, or feeling that no one cares about you (which goes back to the feeling of loneliness). They all make ourselves feel like.... well... shit. You have your challenges in life, as well as your peaceful, easy moments. It's all part of the cycle, no one, no one in the world has a monotype life where everything is perfect and so well organized. It just doesn't work that way, it'd be too boring, and there would be no point of living life, if it were all the same. It's pointless if when you do something, you don't get a different reaction to what some other person has when he attempts the same action. Which brings me back to the previous thread, about "What is your view on life". What you do unto life, it does unto you... Life is all about making your way through the obstacles, and it actually might even be taking note of your actions, what you do, and what challenge to test you to see how you react. All I'm saying is, committing suicide, is just failing life. Though, that is just my opinion because I know some people have exceptions to experiences and incidents to where the wrought reason had good explanation and whatnot. But still, it is all bad, murder...suicide... genocide... suicide...homocide, you name it! They all lead to the same thing-killing. Though there is more to this, I will just put a stopper here just to take a break, and so any person's anger might not blow over, to where they break into my house and throw me off the empire state building.

If the two stances were to be x = 1 and x = 1 + 1, isn't it clear that only one of the two statements can be correct, and that the truth of one necessitates the falsity of the other?
I'm not so sure which one is correct actually, it's a matter of terminology rather than ethic or moral. I should have said "bravery = boldness in the face of fear or pain" (as someone said earlier). I'll leave it up to you guys whether you consider killing yourself brave or not. ;P I'm not sure, it really depends on the individual circumstances and on the person.

I don't think comparing suicide to genocide is low and dirty. Sorry you lost all respect for me because my opinion differs from yours. I am truly weeping for the respect you no longer hold for me; how shall I go on living without your admiration?

obviously that was meant in a humorous, snickering way, but in reality, people do kill themselves over things like that.

I'm out of this thread. To much bulk reading without a break or a paragraph x.x

Every time I go into General Discussion, I try everytime to ignore this thread, but the bold letters, and the poplularity of it got the best of me, I just had to post something.

The sad truth is that if you're unable to move beyond the "what if" stage, then you haven't survived. You're still living the nightmare, and until you can come to terms with what happened (not understand why it happened; no one can fathom the evils that humans are capable of...by "come to terms," I mean more of an understanding that what happened was not your fault and that you're allowed to put it behind you), you're still a victim. However, "this too shall pass." Those who escape genocide eventually become survivors of genocide. They're forever changed, but they can put their past behind them. So I'll agree that genocide/homicide victims/families go through the "what if" phase. But that's a part of the genocide itself, NOT a part of surviving genocide.


Well I think that's a tad nitpicky but it's OK. But anyway that doesn't really have anything to do with what I was originally saying... All I was saying was that people who remain alive (Note the wording, since you'll probably launch into a tirade if I say: "survivors") after a genocidal incident will go through a guilt/"What if" phase just like the family (or friends or close associates or whatever) of a murder/suicide victim. (2nd note, me saying suicide victim has no bearing whatsoever on my thoughts or argument in relation to committing suicide being brave, it is simply the way the sentence has been phrased.)



And while Matt's observation is a good one, just because we agree on some element of bravery doesn't mean that our positions are reconcilable, nor does it mean that they're not diametrically opposed. If the two stances were to be x = 1 and x = 1 + 1, isn't it clear that only one of the two statements can be correct, and that the truth of one necessitates the falsity of the other?


Maybe, maybe not, who can say? But then does it really matter? I wouldn't think so, namely because they're personal positions, or as you say, stances, they aren't competing theorems that precisely explain the inner mechanics of the universe. And since this is an argument/discussion over personal viewpoints, I don't think that one can be said to be absolutely correct, it could certainly be more correct than the other one, but that doesn't mean that the other is instantly false in every single way.



Allow me to clarify my position with an example. Suppose you were to come across a button that said "Do not press." You press the button. Nothing happens whatsoever. Does that require boldness? Yes. Do I consider that bravery? No.

Now say, unbeknownst to you, pressing the button results in the immediate (albeit painless) death of the presser. Again, you press the button. Boldness? Yes. Bravery? No. Why? Because any boldness had to do with pressing a button whose purpose you were unaware of. The fact that it caused your death is irrelevant, since your choice didn't take that consequence into account.

Now, *poof*, you're alive again. This time, again unbeknownst to you, the button will kill you but also bring everlasting peace on earth to the rest of humanity. You press the button. Bold? Yes. Brave? No. Again, you made a choice based on a button that told you not to press it, and any consequences of the action are irrelevant because you didn't factor them into your decision.

Last resurrection. The button does the same thing as the last one, BUT this time you know exactly what it does. You press the button. Bold? Yes. Brave? YES. This time your choice was NOT to press a button that told you not to press it, but rather a choice to sacrifice your life for the good of humanity.

Your soldier example falls into the last category. And as I'll cite from my previous posts, this example is bravery because the soldier has considered the consequences of his actions. (By the way, I wonder if any soldier would like to hear their bravery compared with that of people who commit suicide.)

I think we can sum this up this way: It's not what you do, it's why you do it. When I brought up consequences as a prerequisite for bravery, I wasn't requiring that the actual consequences needed to be good. I did, however, assert that you need to CONSIDER the consequences first.


OK, I think I can see where you're coming from now...

My argument is fairly simple (Well I think so). People tend to have a fear of dying, it's not something that you'd like, indeed it would take some courage to kill yourself. And in preforming an act that means that means certain death (Like suicide) you're overcoming that fear, and preforming a brave act. Anything that happens because of your suicide however, isn't actually part of the act itself, it happens after the fact. Of course I'm not condoning any heinous acts that have occurred because of someone's suicide, but the actual of killing themselves is the truly brave part of it. Consideration of the consequences shouldn't be a factor in determining bravery.

Anyway what you've seems to imply that as long as someone who commits suicide fully considers the consequences of what they're doing, and as killing yourself does require some courage, then committing suicide would be brave. Is this correct?

In terms of the button:
You know that pushing this button will instantly kill you, and you know of nothing else that will happen when push the button, you have also considered what might happen after you die (To your family etc.), you push the button, you die, and the button does nothing else.

And if what I've said above doesn't constitute bravery due to insufficient consideration, then what is "sufficient consideration"? Would someone who tries to save their neighbor from a burning house without considering what could happen to their families if they (The rescuer) die not be being brave?

I presume by the "previous post" about "solider has considered the consequences" you're talking about the paragraph you put at the bottom? But it doesn't really matter too much, just making sure, I get what you mean. Anyway, I'm not sure if I can actual argue that, since we both agree that the solider would be brave, just for different reasons, which I talk about elsewhere anyway. (And yeah, you're right a solider wouldn't like their bravery to be compared to that of someone who committed suicide, however no-one ever said that the person who committed suicide was as brave as the soldier, just the they were brave.)



And as for romanticism, doesn't raising the bar for bravery make me an "unrealistic idealist"? ;)

Oh most definitely you quixotic bastard, how could you be such a thing?



He made that decision when he signed up. He signed up with the understanding that his life would be in danger and that he would have to face that danger in order to do his duty. I doubt that any soldier would neglect to consider this before going into service.

Okay, you're right, point conceded, no-one going to war wouldn't consider the consequences. (But even if they didn't they'd still be being brave) Although I suppose we could consider the consequences to other people such as the hostile soldiers killed and their families, and yes, I'm sure some soldiers do consider that, but some might not. Would that consequence need to be considered for the act to be brave?

But then does it really matter?

It mattered enough for you to post about it ;)


My argument is fairly simple (Well I think so). People tend to have a fear of dying, it's not something that you'd like, indeed it would take some courage to kill yourself. And in preforming an act that means that means certain death (Like suicide) you're overcoming that fear, and preforming a brave act. Anything that happens because of your suicide however, isn't actually part of the act itself, it happens after the fact. Of course I'm not condoning any heinous acts that have occurred because of someone's suicide, but the actual of killing themselves is the truly brave part of it. Consideration of the consequences shouldn't be a factor in determining bravery.

See, I would call that boldness, but not bravery. Perhaps it's just a terminology issue, but the term bravery has a definite positive connotation. It's been considered a virtue in various societies. Can performing an action with no regard for consequences be considered virtuous?


Anyway what you've seems to imply that as long as someone who commits suicide fully considers the consequences of what they're doing, and as killing yourself does require some courage, then committing suicide would be brave. Is this correct?

No, I claimed that if you do not consider the consequences of what you're doing, then your action cannot be considered brave (in degrees, as always). I did not claim the converse of that statement.

As for the button you suggested, what consequences did you consider before pressing the button, and what prompted you to press the button? "I understand that I will do no good to anyone by pressing this button...but I'm going to press it anyway simply because I like pressing buttons" is not brave. Considering the consequences does no good if you subsequently throw them out the window in your final choice. Look at it this way: Every sane choice you make, you make because you think you will gain more than you lose. (Whether you actually gain more than you lose is an entirely different matter.) What is the gain that you believed you would get from pressing the button? Do you believe that that gain is greater than your life? If you can neither name the gain nor justify its importance, then your choice was not sane, and I would consider an insane choice to not be brave because you don't understand what you're doing.


Although I suppose we could consider the consequences to other people such as the hostile soldiers killed and their families, and yes, I'm sure some soldiers do consider that, but some might not. Would that consequence need to be considered for the act to be brave?

Signing up to be a soldier means consciously choosing to put your nation as a top priority on your list. In signing up, he has accepted that the safety and honor of the nation is more important than the well-being of those hostile to the nation. Whether or not we agree with this value, it is the one that guides his evaluation of consequences, and so long as he acts according to this value, any time he faces personal fear or danger to fulfill this value he can be considered brave.

I'm still undecided as to how to handle committing suicide to prove a point, i.e., completely in accordance with some value. I'm tempted to call that brave BUT argue that suicides in practice (especially the kind cited by Hopeless) do NOT follow this pattern, citing the people who have their suicide attempts interrupted by outside forces and subsequently regret their suicide attempt. I'm also tempted to call it psychotic depending on the value: If you honestly believe that by immolating yourself you will cause all the sand in the world to become sentient and usher in a new age of prosperity by preventing the kangaroos from taking over the world, I'd be loath to call your immolation "brave." I'd also try my hardest to stay far, far away from you, but that's a different matter :P In other words, bravery has to involve some sort of informed decision; if something such as a mental disorder were to interfere with your decision process, that decision shouldn't be considered brave. (Note: This does NOT mean that having a mental disorder precludes you from being brave.)

See, I would call that boldness, but not bravery. Perhaps it's just a terminology issue, but the term bravery has a definite positive connotation. It's been considered a virtue in various societies. Can performing an action with no regard for consequences be considered virtuous?

No probably not, but then this isn't about being virtuous this is about being brave. And I'd say that it would be somewhat of a disagreement over definitions... I mean to me killing yourself is overcoming the fear of dying, and that takes courage, so you'd be both brave and bold as well.



No, I claimed that if you do not consider the consequences of what you're doing, then your action cannot be considered brave (in degrees, as always). I did not claim the converse of that statement.

Oh I see. "...this example is bravery because the soldier has considered the consequences of his actions." Then what did you mean by that?

And what about my: "Run into a burning house to save your neighbours without considering what would happen to your family if you die" example? Is that kind of person automatically not brave because they didn't consider the consequences? Because that's what you're saying. Perhaps you should inform the government and make sure that all people who have received bravery awards are interviewed to confirm that they considered all the consequences of their actions.



As for the button you suggested, what consequences did you consider before pressing the button, and what prompted you to press the button? "I understand that I will do no good to anyone by pressing this button...but I'm going to press it anyway simply because I like pressing buttons" is not brave. Considering the consequences does no good if you subsequently throw them out the window in your final choice. Look at it this way: Every sane choice you make, you make because you think you will gain more than you lose. (Whether you actually gain more than you lose is an entirely different matter.) What is the gain that you believed you would get from pressing the button? Do you believe that that gain is greater than your life? If you can neither name the gain nor justify its importance, then your choice was not sane, and I would consider an insane choice to not be brave because you don't understand what you're doing.


See the thing is, if you push a button that you know will kill you, generally that means you want to die, that would be what you want to do, and since you want to die it means that you think that you're doing the right thing that in dying you are indeed gaining more then you're losing (You're gaining that final peace, and an end to suffering and all you're losing is a crappy dead end life.) So this person understands what they're doing (Killing themselves by pressing the button), they understand what there is to gain (Final peace, end to suffering) what they're losing (crappy life) and what consequences their death could have on others (Possible time of grieving). In the end they push the button (Pushing the button of course being a "bold" act)... That'd make them brave right?



Signing up to be a soldier means consciously choosing to put your nation as a top priority on your list. In signing up, he has accepted that the safety and honor of the nation is more important than the well-being of those hostile to the nation. Whether or not we agree with this value, it is the one that guides his evaluation of consequences, and so long as he acts according to this value, any time he faces personal fear or danger to fulfill this value he can be considered brave.


Okay fair enough, and though I'm sure conscription would make for an interesting discussion... I don't think it needs to be included.



I'm still undecided as to how to handle committing suicide to prove a point, i.e., completely in accordance with some value. I'm tempted to call that brave BUT argue that suicides in practice (especially the kind cited by Hopeless) do NOT follow this pattern, citing the people who have their suicide attempts interrupted by outside forces and subsequently regret their suicide attempt. I'm also tempted to call it psychotic depending on the value: If you honestly believe that by immolating yourself you will cause all the sand in the world to become sentient and usher in a new age of prosperity by preventing the kangaroos from taking over the world, I'd be loath to call your immolation "brave." I'd also try my hardest to stay far, far away from you, but that's a different matter :P In other words, bravery has to involve some sort of informed decision; if something such as a mental disorder were to interfere with your decision process, that decision shouldn't be considered brave. (Note: This does NOT mean that having a mental disorder precludes you from being brave.)

OK, so what if the decision to commit suicide is informed? What if you really do accept that you it's best for you to die, what if you know that other people will benefit from your death? Are you being brave?
Actually it'd seem that having a mental disorder would preclude you from being brave, after all, they affect the mind, and if your mind is affected then your decision process is affected... Which means that your consideration of the consequences was not fully informed, or fully thought out. Unless of course you only have to be "fully informed" to the best of your ability.

As for people who regret the decision to attempt suicide, they might regret their decision based upon believing that they might have something to live for, but killing yourself would still be brave regardless of whether you think it wouldn't have been good to so after you've been stopped from trying.

And what about my: "Run into a burning house to save your neighbours without considering what would happen to your family if you die" example?

Evidently I forgot to address this. The death itself is not brave. The person who went into the burning house does not go in with the intent of dying; he/she goes in with the intent of saving the neighbors. The act of saving the neighbors is brave. The person's own death, should it occur, is a consequence of that brave act.

Similarly, the actual death of a soldier is not in and of itself brave. Performing the duty of a soldier is brave, however, and it can have death as a consequence.


Is that kind of person automatically not brave because they didn't consider the consequences? Because that's what you're saying. Perhaps you should inform the government and make sure that all people who have received bravery awards are interviewed to confirm that they considered all the consequences of their actions.

This, however, is an error on your part. If you consider NO consequences whatsoever, then your act is not brave, period. (And by NO consequences, I mean in the extreme case, down to "I'm going to load this gun, point it at my head, and pull the trigger" without even considering that your own death is almost certainly going to result from this.) I have several times mentioned that neglecting or ignoring consequences lessens how brave an act is. In other words, bravery is best treated as a relative measure. Can suicide be high on the bravery scale? In certain circumstances (which, I would argue, are different from the typical suicides). Does every suicide have at least an infinitesimal amount of bravery? Probably. How much bravery does the suicide you envision have? Is it more or less than braving a needle to get a flu shot? More or less than bringing medicine to refugees from a bloody war? More or less than serving your country in the armed forces? More or less than proposing to the love of your life?

My claim is not that suicide is devoid of bravery. Just as no act is 100% brave, no act is 0% brave. (Well, for the most part; while it's impossible to consider 100% of the consequences, it is sometimes possible to consider 0% of the consequences, though in practice this doesn't happen either.) My claim is that suicide taken as a result of the "typical" causes as described by Hopeless is low on this scale.

In other words, when I say a particular act is "brave", I don't mean it is 100% brave; I mean one of two things: The particular act is braver than its complement, or the particular act is high enough on the bravery scale that most people would agree it is brave.

In that light, when I say suicide over a broken heart is not brave, I'm saying that it's braver to face your painful emotions and conquer them than to make them go away.


Oh I see. "...this example is bravery because the soldier has considered the consequences of his actions." Then what did you mean by that?


The converse is not NECESSARILY true, but that does not mean it is NEVER true. In this particular case, it is the fact that the consequences are consistent with his value system and the recipients/victims of the consequences that contribute to the act's bravery.


OK, so what if the decision to commit suicide is informed?

Give an example of an "informed" suicide, please. Preferably one involving a broken heart, since the dispute arose not from Hopeless comparing suicide to genocide, but from him comparing a broken heart to genocide. For reference:

If your parents didn't kill themselves from it, then perhaps genocide isn't as bad as a broken heart?
THIS is the claim that RD jumped on. Unfortunately, the discussion somehow replaced "broken heart" with "suicide," which muddled the point in question.

Evidently I forgot to address this. The death itself is not brave. The person who went into the burning house does not go in with the intent of dying; he/she goes in with the intent of saving the neighbors. The act of saving the neighbors is brave. The person's own death, should it occur, is a consequence of that brave act.

Similarly, the actual death of a soldier is not in and of itself brave. Performing the duty of a soldier is brave, however, and it can have death as a consequence.


Ah but would it really be a brave act according to your definition if they didn't consider what impact their death could have? (Which is what I originally put forward). Unless of course you're now saying that the death becomes the only consequence that would need to be considered.



This, however, is an error on your part. If you consider NO consequences whatsoever, then your act is not brave, period. (And by NO consequences, I mean in the extreme case, down to "I'm going to load this gun, point it at my head, and pull the trigger" without even considering that your own death is almost certainly going to result from this.) I have several times mentioned that neglecting or ignoring consequences lessens how brave an act is. In other words, bravery is best treated as a relative measure. Can suicide be high on the bravery scale? In certain circumstances (which, I would argue, are different from the typical suicides). Does every suicide have at least an infinitesimal amount of bravery? Probably. How much bravery does the suicide you envision have? Is it more or less than braving a needle to get a flu shot? More or less than bringing medicine to refugees from a bloody war? More or less than serving your country in the armed forces? More or less than proposing to the love of your life?

My claim is not that suicide is devoid of bravery. Just as no act is 100% brave, no act is 0% brave. (Well, for the most part; while it's impossible to consider 100% of the consequences, it is sometimes possible to consider 0% of the consequences, though in practice this doesn't happen either.) My claim is that suicide taken as a result of the "typical" causes as described by Hopeless is low on this scale.

In other words, when I say a particular act is "brave", I don't mean it is 100% brave; I mean one of two things: The particular act is braver than its complement, or the particular act is high enough on the bravery scale that most people would agree it is brave.

In that light, when I say suicide over a broken heart is not brave, I'm saying that it's braver to face your painful emotions and conquer them than to make them go away.


When I envision suicide in this argument, it's just suicide... Because in my opinion the act of committing suicide is brave and I thought that that's what the argument had become, suicide in general. But in comparison to the ones you talk about. It's braver than getting a flu shot and braver than brining medicine to refugees (Though going into a warzone with every chance of dying to do so would be braver). A solider going to war is braver, and as for proposing, well I can't quite decide on that one.

And what of suicide bombers? Some people call them brave, some people call them cowards, so then how do we define whether they're brave if not everyone can agree where they fit on the "bravery scale"?

But of course, the point (or so I thought) of this argument isn't which is braver, it's whether suicide is brave. And from what I can gather from what you've said above, it can be brave, and in most cases it still fits onto the "bravery scale", and though not as brave as other things (I can agree with that) is still brave.



The converse is not NECESSARILY true, but that does not mean it is NEVER true. In this particular case, it is the fact that the consequences are consistent with his value system and the recipients/victims of the consequences that contribute to the act's bravery.


I know that this should have been used a post back, but:

"I think we can sum this up this way: It's not what you do, it's why you do it. When I brought up consequences as a prerequisite for bravery, I wasn't requiring that the actual consequences needed to be good. I did, however, assert that you need to CONSIDER the consequences first."

"...You can, however, perform an act that is for all practical purposes fully brave, and you do so by weighing all the practically foreseeable consequences..."

It seems to me that you've claimed that the converse of what you originally said is true in most cases.

And as for the solider, OK so he's conducted that action, in accordance with his value system, what about say, the suicide bomber, he believes that by blowing himself up in an army barracks will benefit his cause, those are his values (And as always he has considered his family), and the soliders know that they might die in the line of duty, so that'd be their values, they accepted the consequences, and in willfully killing himself he is being bold, that'd be brave right? But say that almost no-one thinks that what happened was actually brave? (In accordance with the "Bravery scale" and notwhat) Would that mean that it wouldn't be brave? Does the condition for something being brave now also depend on what the majority thinks?




Give an example of an "informed" suicide, please. Preferably one involving a broken heart, since the dispute arose not from Hopeless comparing suicide to genocide, but from him comparing a broken heart to genocide.


Well it might have started out that way, but seemingly it changed, and seemingly we were no longer really arguing that.

But okay whatever:
Let's say that you end up marrying the love of your life, but several years down the track your spouse decides that they don't want to spend the rest of their life with you, they leave and your heart is broken. Then let's say that your entire life loses its meaning (I damn well better get points for so many cliches) without this person, say that they don't actually have any real friends apart from the person who just left, say that they don't think that they'll ever be happy again without this person and that no-one would particularly miss them and no real negatives would come out of this person's death. Brave? Or not?
(And sorry that I can't actually give you a real-life example of such a thing, since I haven't known anyone who has done anything of the sort.)



THIS is the claim that RD jumped on. Unfortunately, the discussion somehow replaced "broken heart" with "suicide," which muddled the point in question.

Like I said above, I was under the impression that the point in question changed when we started this argument since neither of use have really been arguing about that.

And what of the button suicide? (If you've acknowledged that it is indeed brave somewhere in your reply and I haven't picked up on it, I apologise).