Hi! I'm new here! (Been lurking in the forms since May) :) I've started composing to help me play piano and alto sax better musically and because I thought it would be a fun, healthy hobby to take up.

Anyway, when starting to compose a piece I like to come up with a melody that I like and try to form a chord progression. But, this doesn't exactly work, so I tried forming a progression, then building a melody off of that. I find that melodies tend to be dull and uninspired when I attempt it that way.

How do you guys approach composing your songs? What ideas might you suggest for me?

You're not alone. I have troubles with that too. x_x

All I can suggest is to have the notes on your melody be somewhere on the chords. That always helps.

Also you can find out what notes sound good played consecutively or together. I've noticed the following do through personal experience:

1. C and G
2. C and F (I advise C and G more, though :P )
3. D and A
4. E and B

That's all I know (sorry, don't know too much theory :heh: )

First off, you must remember that Harmony is one of the most complex concepts in music, and it's something that half of which can only be learned through experience. When composing, keep your scale in mind. No matter what scale you use, here is the pattern of chords in any major scale:

I | Major
II | Minor
III | Minor
IV | Major
V | Major
VI | Minor
VII | Diminished Minor (Use sparingly.)

Similarly, no matter what scale you use, here is the pattern of chords in any true minor scale:

I | Minor
II | Diminished Minor. (Use with care.)
III | Major
IV | Minor
V | Minor
VI | Major
VII | Minor

Remember that major chords generally tend to produce a "happy", "bouncy" effect, while minor chords lend themselves to solemn and calm sounds.

Remember that any tonal melody has a chord progression hidden and emphasized within it, even if the harmonies are absent.

Remember that every chord is perfect when completed (base, third, and fifth), and a chord lacking the fifth lacks power, while a chord lacking the third lacks character.

When I compose a song, my method is to generally made at least a 1-or-2 measure introduction, though that isn't necessary. However, it may always be considered, as it enforces the tonality of the piece instantly.

Generally, I work out the first few notes of a melody by experimenting with different note values and avoiding large interval leaps between notes, especially being careful to avoid any leaps above the sixth, though there are exceptions. After I've composed the first melodic phrase of my piece (generally I divide phrases into 4-or-8 bars), I go back in and implement chord progressions. If chord progressions give you a hard time, remember that passing notes are not required to be harmonious with the chord itself. Thus, if bar 1 sustains a C Major chord, pretty much anything after beat 1 is not required to be part of the chord itself, though be careful to avoid excessive dissonance on the other beats, especially the third, assuming the piece is in common time.

Try to use some degree of repetition in your song(s), especially among the main theme, as it makes a piece more memorable.

Also, do not neglect the other time sigs than common (4/4). Too many artists never use compound or triple meter.

Just try experimenting with note values and different parts of the current chord of a measure to work out a decent melody if you get stuck freely thinking of a melody. :)

My strongest tip: I recommend reading up on cadences. They are the basis of any melodic passage's ending, and are key to modulation, closure, and toanl foundation.

------------------

If any of my advice was not clear, please feel free to ask for a clarification.

Thanks a lot Gnomish!

Some of the stuff that you stated are things I learned though my lessons from my Piano and Sax teachers, but I do have some questions.

I know that the type of chords are different for harmonic minor and natural minor, will choosing one over the other produce a different effect in sound? (Or is the concept of harmonic minor too hard for me? :) )

I also know learned a little about cadences from the sticky at the top of the forum. I also know from lessons (let's hope I remember right :) ) that ii and IV are Predominants that lead to V and vvi(dim) which are Dominant. are there things that lead into the predominants or should I just use I?

Do passing notes also include escape/neighboring/etc. tones?

Any good library books that I can check out to study cadences/music theory in general (Unfortunately, I can't take the music theory class I want to for this year because a referendum didn't pass, cause the my school to cut a class from every schedule)

Thanks a lot, your advice is already start to shape up my first compostion :)

VII | Diminished Minor (Use sparingly.)
Dimished minor? I never heard of that chord before. But I have heard of a diminished chord, which is the root, flat 3rd, flat 5th, and 6th of the major scale.
Or does diminished minor = diminished?

Synonymous. Excuse my diction. However, a diminished chord consists of the root, minor mediant, and diminished dominant. Is the sixth an added version?

Edit: Are you referring to the dual-tritone diminished seventh chord?

Synonymous. Excuse my diction. However, a diminished chord consists of the root, minor mediant, and diminished dominant. Is the sixth an added version?

Edit: Are you referring to the dual-tritone diminished seventh chord?
Hmm, your terminology is confusing me.

The thing is, my jazz book told me this. If you want to play the Cdim chord, you play C, Eb, Gb, A.

But someone told me that Cdim is C, Eb, Gb. And Cdim7 is C, Eb, Gb, A. Hmmm... :think:

Cdim = C, Eb, Gb
Cdim7 = C, Eb, Gb, Bbb (which is A, but it's Bbb if you want to be technical =P) so the the 7th denotes the Bbb

Cdim7 <-> dual-tritone diminished seventh chord

:think:

Cdim = C, Eb, Gb
Cdim7 = C, Eb, Gb, Bbb (which is A, but it's Bbb if you want to be technical =P) so the the 7th denotes the Bbb

Ok, suppose Cdim = C, Eb, Gb. But then calling Cdim7 = C, Eb, Gb, Bbb doesn't make sense to me if you think about it. "A" is the 6th note in the C Major scale. So Cdim7 should really be called Cdim6, according to your definitions. And Cdim7 should be C,Eb,Gb,Bb.

Actually, Cdim7 is set up "like a dose":

The "C" section means that the chord would be set up as:
C, E, G.

However, since there is a "7" near the end, that means you add the seventh to the chord:
C, E, G, B.

Moreover, the "dim" in the middle means that the chord is treated as if in a true minor key (by default):
C, Eb, G, Bb.

Furthermore, a diminished seventh chord can only be considered truly diminished if it is composed entirely of tritones (all fifths are diminished).
C, Eb, Gb, Bbb (which is also A natural).

It is a Cdim7 chord, not a Cdim/add6 chord. If you add a sixth, that would give you:
C, Eb, Gb, A.

Although technically speaking, this is a possible chord, but the dual-tritone Cdim7 notation is preferred due to the fact that added chords are often dismissed as unconventional or untraditional.

For theory's sake, Cdim/add6 connotes unnecessary dissonance and clashes with the idea of a diminished chord altogether. As a result, Cdim7 is the preferred name.

Since you obviously know a decent amount of theory, my tip for you is to listen to other works while looking at the sheets. That way, you will understand how harmony works together with the melody.

I'd stay away from Chopin sheets, but there are some very useful pieces for you to study from the classical era :)

Another helpful place to practice harmony (http://forums.ichigos.com/showthread.php?t=4483).
XD

The "C" section means that the chord would be set up as:
C, E, G.
Ok, I agree with that.


However, since there is a "7" near the end, that means you add the seventh to the chord:
C, E, G, B.
Hmm I thought "7" means you flat the 7th and "M7" is the real 7th, like this.
C7 = C, E, G, Bb
CM7 = C, E, G, B


Moreover, the "dim" in the middle means that the chord is treated as if in a true minor key (by default):
C, Eb, G, Bb.
Are you saying Cdim = C, Eb, G, Bb? What happened to the flat 5th?
Um C,Eb,G,Bb is Cm7, not Cdim.


Furthermore, a diminished seventh chord can only be considered truly diminished if it is composed entirely of tritones (all fifths are diminished). C, Eb, G, Bbb (which is also A natural).
C,Eb,G,Bbb = C,Eb,G,A = Cm6


It is a Cdim7 chord, not a Cdim/add6 chord. If you add a sixth, that would give you:
C, Eb, Gb, A.
How did the 5th magically get flat (i.e. the Gb)?

*sigh* :heh: It appears as if my sleepiness last night when I wrote some of that got in the way. (But I can't blame it all on that.) Forgive my errors, but it all makes perfect sense (at least to me... :p). I split up parts of the explanation in order to build little by little. Let me try to justify your rebuttal.


Hmm I thought "7" means you flat the 7th and "M7" is the real 7th, like this.
C7 = C, E, G, Bb
CM7 = C, E, G, B

This is true, though I chose to flat the seventh by using the fact that it is part of the diminished chord in definition in the next step (due to the fact that I didn't want to leap about too quickly.)



Are you saying Cdim = C, Eb, G, Bb? What happened to the flat 5th?
Um C,Eb,G,Bb is Cm7, not Cdim.

As you'll see, that was merely a typo, and in the next example, I added in the flatted fifth. Apologies for not having caught that in my post-edit. (My statement went: "[a] diminished [chord] is composed entirely of tritones (all fifths are diminished).") My mind must have slipped inputting the Gb until the last little bit.



C,Eb,G,Bbb = C,Eb,G,A = Cm6

This is due to the mistype explained earlier.


How did the 5th magically get flat (i.e. the Gb)?

This is also partially due to the mistype earlier (which is actually typed in when explaining the Cdim/add6 chord, and the dual-tritone aspect of a diminished seventh justifies the flatted fifth.

:hey: Dreadfully sorry, Gedtag! Shan't we get this topic back on track now? (Maybe this should be split to the theory thread. *cough* NOIR! *cough* :P)

Shan't we get this topic back on track now?
I thought this is on topic? How can you compose harmony if you don't know your chords?

I do hope you're using you in the most general aspect and not referring directly to myself.

I do hope you do not believe me incapable of recognizing and composing harmonious figures in music.

I do hope you're using you in the most general aspect and not referring directly to myself.

I do hope you do not believe me incapable of recognizing and composing harmonious figures in music.

Yeah I meant you as in the most general aspect.

Thank you. Let us not become archenemies or anything on here over a dispute about how to construct a chord. :P I'm sure you're just as able and gifted a composer and theorist as the others on the forum, and I will make an effort to hear your compositions later.

Back on topic:

KakumeiLight, don't fret too much over learning harmonic minor. It is a piece of cake! It is often preferred over natural minor due to the fact that it produces more of tension before resolving at a cadence. In addition, harmonic minor was preferred by the Baroque Masters (among composers of other eras) because of the idea that if a song started in minor and was composed for use in a church service, it would frequently be required (by social, unwritten rule) to end on a major chord. This is often referred to as a Picardy Third. (This is because a major fifth in a key like A minor is fully capable of cadencing onto an A Major chord.)

Here is an example of a harmonic minor scale:
A B C D E F G# A

The G# is most often useful when cadencing from V to I. The V is constructed as (in A harmonic minor, anyway) E, G#, B. Because the G# is only a semitone away from the A, it is very instrumental in resolving melodies and chords themselves.

In many songs, the harmonic minor scale creates an "evil" feeling, while the natural minor lends itself to a more saddening or somber feeling. This is the main point of consideration when choosing in which scale/key to compose.


I also know learned a little about cadences from the sticky at the top of the forum. I also know from lessons (let's hope I remember right ) that ii and IV are Predominants that lead to V and vvi(dim) which are Dominant. are there things that lead into the predominants or should I just use I?

Generally, in your question about pre-dominants, while they are useful at times, it is unnecessary to hold them in the highest regard. They do their job, but often, chord progressions are able to be freely composed without much abrupt, unexpected change from one chord to the next. IV leads to V well, as does ii, but almost any chord can lead to any other chord fairly swiftly. My advice is to just compose with what sounds right to your ears, not pious devotion toward concrete rules about which chords lead well into others (exempting the case of cadences, of course). :) Most of the time, I leads to ii and IV very well, just as you stated.


Do passing notes also include escape/neighboring/etc. tones?

Yes. :)


Any good library books that I can check out to study cadences/music theory in general

Almost any general theory book is great for starters, but I'd recommend this book: Oxford ABC of Music (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0193171031/qid=1124136761/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-3173558-4812710?v=glance&s=books&n=507846).

Best of luck, KakumeiLight! :D

C,Eb,G,Bbb = C,Eb,G,A = Cm6


Actually, as Al pointed out earlier, this is technically not true, since Bbb = A only in equal temperment (ie, for keyboard/fretted instruments). On instruments such as strings and woodwinds, you can actually play Bbb (or even Bbbb, Bbbbb, etc) distinctly from A if you have a precise enough sense of intonation. Lots of microtonal music often makes greater divisions, such as 72 per octave instead of the regular 12, and this is where it becomes important. But let's not get ahead of ourselves here :P...

Anyways, http://www.musictheory.net is simple and straightforward site that talks about the subjects you have asked about; I think it should be a nice starting point before you go into the more advanced and specific subjects.

Thanks a lot for all of the help and the very helpful website.

I'm currently in the middle of making a cheesy little waltz, and *gasp* I've gone out of my comfort levels to experiment with different things!

I have roughly 20 measures done now and hope to post it within two or three days. (Maybe less if I decide to stop procrastinating my summer reading.) :heh:

With all of the knowledge you guys have provided, composing seems a lot more fun, even with my small amount of talent. Thanks a lot. :)

One thing I will note is that I used the make the melody and harmonize the melody after approach on this upcoming piece, and I find that some of my items incorporate cadences quite nicely, while others seem to have ignored them and probably other music thoery rules. Oh well, we'll see what comes out of this when it's all said and done, it's my first composition anyway.

Okay, here's the easiest way to look at a diminished 7th chord: "The distance between two consecutive notes is three semitones."

1) Pick a starting note [C in this case]
2) Build your chord [C E G B <-- the letter names are evently spaced out, this is critical if you want to be theoretically correct]
3) Add accidentals so that each interval is three semitones [C to Eb is three semitones, Eb to Gb is three semitones, and Gb to Bbb is three semitones]
4) Voila, my cheap and simple method of figuring out any diminished 7th chords. No need to worry about any other intervals ^.~

Well, if you don't want to get strict with those chord progression. Try to harmonize it in different way.

Ex.
for C major, it can be harmonize into many chords by using "C" note

- C minor
C Eb G
- C dim.
C Eb Gb
- C Aug. (E Aug., G# Aug.)
C E G#
- F Major
F A C
- F minor
F Ab C
- F# dim.
F# A C
- Ab Major
Ab C Eb
- A minor
A C E
- A dim.
A C Eb

These are just only triads. 7th, 9th, 11th, etc. is not included. You can harmonize it into many chords just using one note

By "harmoniz[ing]" C major, do you mean actually mean modulate (ie, modulate C major into F minor)? Or are you suggesting to harmonizing the note C in various ways? I don't think you can actually harmonize a chord, since it's essentially already harmonized (unless you want to slap another different chord on top of it and make it bimodal, but that's probably not what you mean :P.)

Using an F minor chord in a C Major song isn't necessarily modulation, as modulation is a shift in allegiance to a new tonic. Most of the time, it provides a good basis for a Plagal cadence very well back into C Major. :)

Eek! Bimodality disgusts me. ;)

Lol, right - sometimes I get cadences and modulation mixed up. Bimodality isn't necessarily bad, actually. Lay down a D-minor triad with a A minor triad and you have this awesome but not too dissonant chord - it's actually a Dm11th chord, but technically it's still bimodal I think :P.

*shudders* I still prefer to give a melody one chord beneath it at a time. :) (Actually, bimodality comes off fairly well in VG music... I've just never given it much of a go in my own compositions.)

Lol, right - sometimes I get cadences and modulation mixed up. Bimodality isn't necessarily bad, actually. Lay down a D-minor triad with a A minor triad and you have this awesome but not too dissonant chord - it's actually a Dm11th chord, but technically it's still bimodal I think :P.
I don't think it's a dissonant chord; it's aka Dm9 = D, F, A, C, E.
Or in terms of an A chord it's Am(4)(-6) = A, C, D, E, F
Dm9 looks better though.

Also Dm11 doesn't seem right to me, because there's no G in the chord.

Although it may not sound the part to some people, it is dissonant by definition. This is because the E and F are only a semitone apart, though you can mitigate this effect by placing them in far intervals from one another.... I believe Debussy was very good at using this kind of chord. :)

I don't think it's a dissonant chord; it's aka Dm9 = D, F, A, C, E.
Or in terms of an A chord it's Am(4)(-6) = A, C, D, E, F
Dm9 looks better though.

Also Dm11 doesn't seem right to me, because there's no G in the chord.

My bad, you're right. It's actually a Dm9th chord - the 11th chord comes if you play a D-minor triad with a C-major triad. Silly me :heh: .