Many of my classical songs that I have composed are attempted to be in the style of many of my favorite Baroque composers. However, I'm finding that much more is needed in a song than cadences and a harpsichord to make it baroque! ( Duh... :P ) Does anyone have tips on how to make a song "more Baroque"?

I know of several typical chord progressions of the era, as well as the over-used progressions that Vivaldi was so fond of ( :P ).

Perhaps if I were to introduce the parts in a fugal style (just introducing them like that, not developing them in fugal form) or imitation...

If only I knew a bit more about modulation... it'd really help...

Also, would the ritornello form of Vivaldi help?

Maybe I should concentrate more on countermelodies and counterpoint rather than harmony?

I've found that the best way to make a piece sound baroque is by using basso continuo. Basically just keep the base line moving almost like a walking bass line in jazz blues.

Good idea - I'll have to look up info. on how to "recognize" a basso continuo. I've tried it before but without much luck -

Any website references? Or shall I look it up in my Treatise on Harmony by Rameau?

EDIT: Perhaps I should also add ornaments to the continuo RH between chords?

Characteristics of the Baroque:

1. The steady pulse in the bass gives Baroque music its feeling of drive and energy. 2. The melodic line has an ornate texture and is often marked by a spinning out of a single melodic figure. 3. The main source of expression for the Baroque composer was the contrast between soft and loud. This shift from one level to the other is called terraced dynamics.

Source (http://classicalmusic.lifetips.com/faq.asp__Q__SiteID__E__407__A__QuestionID__E__6878 5__A__type__E__0)

EDIT: You probably know more about the baroque period than most of us here, haha, so I doubt I&#39;ll be able to find a good website. I don&#39;t even know why I posted this one ><

No tips on how to "realize" a basso continuo line? :(

Tip: Don&#39;t make it sound Baroque. :P


J/k


Well, you should get a form and analysis book and study the forms of Baroque fugues, minuets, gigues, etc.. so that you get a general idea of the style and form of music. Yes, you do need to that, even if you are familiar listening to Baroque music.

One of the main techniques in baroque is that of counterpoint. The steady balance of 8th over 16th or 32nd over 16th respectively, the pattern must be evident, although you can break out from time to time. The use of dynamics is NOT strongly recommended as a dominant part of your piece, you&#39;ll know if its good if you can play it with no dynamics at all. Consider dynamics an added plus+.

I know pretty much about Bach and the methologies that he employed, this site may help you out.


http://www.baroquemusic.org

*Good luck, and let me hear what you create :heh: *

Thanks -

A question: I know that the second part of the basso continuo must be a sustaining instrument, but what other than &#39;cello/bassoon could be used?

I don&#39;t know if you have any experience in jazz bass lines but it&#39;s really the only place a true basso continuo is used today. Maybe looking up some beginner stuff on how to make up a jazz bass line off of the given chords would help you. It&#39;s more or less the same thing except there aren&#39;t any dominant or heavily altered chords.

As to instrumentation, I think Organ, Harpsichord or Harp would be good choices. You could even use trombone or French Horn but that wouldn&#39;t be a very "Baroque" instrumentation.

Might I also advise you doing the following:
Go to www.sheetmusicarchive.net
Download the second partia by J.S. Bach, and take a look at the style thats used for the &#39;Sinfonie&#39; section of it. (this is the first part-ita of the second book) and look how the steady conversions from

Grave (dominated with strong chords) -> Andante with a steady flowing 16th phrase supported structurally with 8th notes that come in at just the right moments, and how it uses scales (i dont know the exact definition for when a scale goes from one note up in the signature to the next identical note 8va -_- sorry) to connect these phrases.

How a buildup is used, and how he gently puts the phrase down in preparation for the Allegro which will follow in which you will notice very strong 16th phrases supported by 8ths in its traditional counterpoint forms.

I played this piece only recently so my knowledge of it is still fresh. Use what I have told you, see how it is done in the actual sheet, and then look at more baroque sheets (from partitas or fugues), look at works by Scarilatti and Telamann (I dont know many others) and I can guarentee, within a day you will know how to do Baroque music. Further study will help you on the road to mastery of the technique (which takes years to master)

*Good luck once again*

:) Would you recommend I observe the style of Vivaldi as well? His ritornello form is quite easy to pull off...

Originally posted by Gnomish@Jul 9 2004, 01:26 PM
:) Would you recommend I observe the style of Vivaldi as well? His ritornello form is quite easy to pull off...
Did some research, and I have seen this in Telmanns form of it (in a song I dont remember) I am not familiar with vivaldi because I am not too interested in his works. (Im a Bach, Beethoven, Chopin type of guy)

You may wish to observe it.. I mean it all depends on how you want the song to sound. I know that the ritornello works quite well with fast works, but it all depends on how you want your song to sound generally...

Nobody has tips on how to compose a strong, independent bass line? I&#39;m sure there are rules in basso continuo form... I&#39;ve looked @ Bach&#39;s bassi continuo lines and they are quite intimidating to try to live up to.

Use for the basso continuo only 4th and 8th, to make a "walking" bassline. No interruptions (or at least a few, but, if possible, none) by breaks (hope it&#39;s the right word for what I mean. You&#39;ll understand it, I guess). You don&#39;t have to use only chord-tones (again: hope it&#39;s the right word...), but mainly.
As instrument you can take every instrument, that can play in the bass clef. To make it sound baroque, you can take contrabass, cello (both pizz.), bassoon, cembalo. That would sound best, I think.

P.S.: Here is a good example for a good basso continuo. It&#39;s from the game "Tetris" and "stolen" from Bach.

I&#39;ve heard that most continuo parts are consisted of a harpsichord (or clavichord/lute) and then the bass line is backed up by a sustaining bass instrument, such as a [bowed] violoncello. Perhaps I should use this method?

yeah. It&#39;s right too. you just have to imagine: Which instruments dd the people use in the baroque epoch.

Ok, thanks. :) Perhaps I should also use more ornaments... (trills, mordents, etc.)

Also remember, Baroque pieces don&#39;t "fly" everywhere

Usually Baroque pieces stay within an octave. Move around intervals 3rd, 5th and 8th.

Analyze Bach&#39;s pieces and you will see what i mean

*bump* Any other tips? Are there rules for what notes the bass part should have? (As a part of the continuo.) Maybe it should only play the root or third of each chord or something?

You can use just about any note in passing (as long as it&#39;s in the scale) but make sure not to end a phrase in the bass part on the fourth or second as this usually makes the chord structure seem a little ambiguous and it really just doesn&#39;t sound good.

I always end the bass part on the unison/octave... That way I can use cadences. (V-I)

I&#39;m quite impressed how some of you guys can compose songs in different formats and types by studying structure and such. I could never do that. I&#39;M SO SORRY IF THIS IS OFF-TOPIC AND COMPLETELY OUT OF HAND.

*smacks Noir7* You&#39;re too off-topic and COMPLETELY out of hand&#33; J/k&#33; :P

It&#39;s fun studying structure of types of compositions... :) And it&#39;s a good exercise to model a song after certain periods of music.

*bump* By using the advice here, I&#39;d just made my first attempt at a song in the style of D. Scarlatti, one of my favorite Baroque composers. While it&#39;s a short song, I&#39;ve ornamented it in a Baroque fashion, composed a walking (running) bass part, and made a transitory section in the middle. I&#39;m sorry, but I can only provide the .MUS file (in Finale 2004 format)... :(

Please tell me what you think&#33; If you aren&#39;t familiar with Scarlatti&#39;s works, here is a sample of his works:

Sonata K1 (http://www.virtualsheetmusic.com/MIDI/Scarlatti/ScarlattiK1-5/01Sonata_K1.mid)

Here is my Sonata No. 1 in the style of Scarlatti:

I think you accomplished your goal quite well and I enjoyed listening to the piece. The only criticism I&#39;d have is that in a few places you abandon the Basso Continuo feel to go with a more modern rythmic bass line (the dotted eight-sixteenths) but it works in the piece. If you&#39;d like a midi or an MP3 of that posted I could provide it.

Thanks for listening to it and thanks for giving such constructive criticism. :) Perhaps I will revise the sycopated bass parts...

Yes, please post a midi of it. :) Or if you have a good synth system would you post an MP3? If it&#39;s not too much trouble. :D

The .wav file wouldn&#39;t upload and I couldn&#39;t figure out how to change it to a .mp3 so here&#39;s the midi.

Nice stuff Gnomish, but it was a bit too "running" for me, although I don&#39;t know if that was your intention (because of Scarletti). A few obvious cadences would separate the sections for us easier so we can hear the different parts. ^^

There are many cadences in this piece already, though... :P There&#39;s one like every 4 measures or so. :P Considering it&#39;s only 2 pages, I thought it was full of them. :) I dunno... many of the cadences that I have implemented are ends of one phrase and beginnings of another. Therefore, some parts cadence, descending a fifth or ascending a fourth, but then continue on, perhaps in sixteenth notes, etc. I just tried to mask the monotony that cadences can cause but doing this... :) Thanks for your comments.

Too "running"? Perhaps. Probably. :P Scarlatti&#39;s pieces are either cantabile or allegro and not much in between. So I tried to mimic this by making it all allegro. :)

No no, hehe, I meant, cadences as in kind of stopping, giving us a chance to breathe. I know the chords are there, but we need to let them sink in. =P

Figured you&#39;d mean that... :P I will in my next piece. :)

Elite..*EDIT: I mean Gnomish* that piece you composed is definitely NOT a sonata
it is 100% baroque&#33;

1: Runny. Bach&#39;s music 90% is all like that
2: The instrument you used, it&#39;s very typical of baroque, in sonatas usually it&#39;s piano, string.
3: It doesn&#39;t sound like it got big jumps, it sound around all within an octave, or just a bit over it.
4: in Sonata there are a lot of running scales, in baroque there isn&#39;t a lot, and from the piece you composed it doesn&#39;t seem like there are a lot of running scales.
5: Sonatas has more chords than baroque.

so defintely change your piece name, it&#39;s definitely not a sonata. Baroque is more like it.

but very nice harmonization and nice blend of 2 voices.

I didn&#39;t compose a piece, that&#39;s Gnomish&#39;s piece. I just put it into midi for him. I believe he called it a Sonata because Scarlatti called all of his Harpsichord solo pieces Sonatas. I could be wrong though.

*coughs at Neerolyte* Thanks for your comments on MY piece&#33; :) :P Indeed I named it Sonata because all of Scarlatti&#39;s 500+ works were one-movement pieces for harpsichord solo entitled "Sonata".

Baroque Sonatas were of the earliest forms of the genre known as the Sonata... Perhaps I could come up with a different name, though.

Sonata refers more to the structure. An example of a classical sonata:

1st movement: Sonata-allegro form. Consists of 1) Exposition [first theme in main key, second theme in modulated key], 2) Development [new material and/or material used from exposition], 3) Recapitulation [restatement of exposition, but both themes are in main key]

2nd movement: Theme and Variations.

3rd movement: Minuet and Trio. (usually Scherzo and Trio for Beethoven)

4th movement: Rondo. (eg. A-B-A-C-A-B-A)

I&#39;ve just listened to it again and think I may&#39;ve been a bit too embellishing on my excessive mordents... :heh:

oh oops sorry Elite

i couldn&#39;t open .MUS files so didn&#39;t listen to Gnomish&#39;s piece. So then i listened the one you put up LOL, guess that&#39;s Gnomish&#39;s piece then

:sweatdrop: sorry Gnomish...i ddin&#39;t know LOL

Fret not, friend. :)

(On a side note, this is my 800th post&#33; :))

Originally posted by Elite666@Aug 18 2004, 09:01 PM
The .wav file wouldn&#39;t upload and I couldn&#39;t figure out how to change it to a .mp3 so here&#39;s the midi.
one of the softwares that converts both MIDI and Wav to mp3 is iTunes.
It&#39;s a freeware,
http://www.apple.com/itunes/download/

I am sure there&#39;re a lot more software that do this, but iTunes is what I uses.