Talk about religion here. HAve some stupid flamewars like in the other religion thread. Why the fuck would I care?

Ok, so I was wondering why Jesus was European and not any other race? If he was the Son of God, why would he be purely a Caucasian? Isn't God racist that way? If He was meant to be fair, then surely Jesus would have been of mixed race?

I don't know how you can talk about religion and not get into...religion. But okay Angelic, I'll bite.


Ok, so I was wondering why Jesus was European and not any other race? If he was the Son of God, why would he be purely a Caucasian? Isn't God racist that way? If He was meant to be fair, then surely Jesus would have been of mixed race?

If ya think about it. The politics of the time discriminated against Jews (because the region was predominately Christian). So to have a Jewish looking savior would have been distasteful at best. I suppose that in the era of Charlemaigne the leaders of the time made paintings of Jesus look more and more like them, Germanic. As time went on, the ideal Jesus sculpture had smooth, light skin and smooth white features.

What I'm trying to say is, don't get stuck on one little point about one religion like in the last thread. There are so many religions, it shouldn't be all about Christianity x_x

I laugh at people who say that God's real and I'll go to hell for not believing that. People like that should shut up. I don't mind people believing in God but if they don't respect the fact that other people consider it a fairy tale, then they're idiots. Telling people they'll go to hell because they don't believe is not a way to show them you respect what they believe.


Here's a good start for a non-traditional debate. Why do you expect Christians, or really anyone, to automatically respect the views of people who disagree with them? Is this a default in your morality? If so, where did you get the idea and why do you think it should be universally true? For example, I respect some of mainstream Christianity but not a lot of the branches' talking points. I have no real respect for fundamentalist Islam. Is this a bad thing in your worldview? How about showing disrespect for the moral/religious worldview of cult leaders?

Edited my first post. Have fun, I'll just close it for good when it becomes stupid again.

Ok, so I was wondering why Jesus was European and not any other race? If he was the Son of God, why would he be purely a Caucasian? Isn't God racist that way? If He was meant to be fair, then surely Jesus would have been of mixed race?
He was from The Middle East. he looked like Osama for all we know.

If god is true, do you think he would be all mighty as the Christians portray or just more powerful as Hindus portray? Can god *not partaining to christian god* make a rock so big he cant lift? Or can god eternaly kill itself?

I guess if he can he is all powerful for he has killed the all powerful. But he also died so he is...?

http://www.mayalords.org/restfldr/guanyin.GIF

If god is true, do you think he would be all mighty as the Christians portray or just more powerful as Hindus portray? Can god *not partaining to christian god* make a rock so big he cant lift? Or can god eternaly kill itself?

I guess if he can he is all powerful for he has killed the all powerful. But he also died so he is...?

http://www.mayalords.org/restfldr/guanyin.GIF
The omnipotent being is essentially omnipotent, and therefore it is impossible for it to be non-omnipotent.
Furthermore, the omnipotent being cannot do what is logically impossible.
Creation of a stone which the omnipotent being cannot lift would be an impossibility, and therefore the omnipotent being is not required to do such a thing.
The omnipotent being cannot create such a stone, but nevertheless retains its omnipotence.

He is omnipotent as you say. Lets just say this "omnipotent" being has no beginning but can it have an end?

Heres somthing that I have been thinking about. If a religion is all forgotten what will happen to its so called "one and only true god"? Its hard to explain what im thinking so here I go : Once on a planet all but 2 were Christians. So all but 2 said that their god was "the one and only true god". The other 2 were Pegans so out of all 2 say that their gods were "the many and only true gods". Over the years through generations are life the "all but 2" Christians became none and the "other 2" Pegans became all.

So in that planet, before Christians god was the only god, but over time everyone became to believe that the Pegans gods were the only gods. Who is right? God of Christ is all forgotten and who knows, that could easly happen to the Pegans god in the future of the planet.

So does god only exist as long as people want it/them to? *post what you think*

He is omnipotent as you say. Lets just say this "omnipotent" being has no beginning but can it have an end?

Heres somthing that I have been thinking about. If a religion is all forgotten what will happen to its so called "one and only true god"? Its hard to explain what im thinking so here I go : Once on a planet all but 2 were Christians. So all but 2 said that their god was "the one and only true god". The other 2 were Pegans so out of all 2 say that their gods were "the many and only true gods". Over the years through generations are life the "all but 2" Christians became none and the "other 2" Pegans became all.

So in that planet, before Christians god was the only god, but over time everyone became to believe that the Pegans gods were the only gods. Who is right? God of Christ is all forgotten and who knows, that could easly happen to the Pegans god in the future of the planet.

So does god only exist as long as people want it/them to? *post what you think*
No He cannot have an end. Eternal means infinite in both directions.

It does not matter what the people believe. Even if there is only one christian left on the world everything will still happen according to God's Knowledge. I cannot answer your situation because it is not true. It's like playing hide and seek. You dont know where the person is, but at the end of the game (time) you'll see him (God)

I think you can worship a god or goddess by your acts and by living the teachings of said religion. For instance, a Buddhist who makes it a habit of beating the pulp out of people on a constant basis cannot trully be called a true Buddhist. So say the "pagan" live justly and come up with a whole pantheon of just and righteous gods and goddesses. Have they really abadoned the ways of the old faith.

What I'm saying is a rose by any other name is still a rose. You can call God, Mr. Bobomcjingles and call yourselves Gigijists for all i care, its how you act that matters.

I think you can worship a god or goddess by your acts and by living the teachings of said religion. For instance, a Buddhist who makes it a habit of beating the pulp out of people on a constant basis cannot trully be called a true Buddhist. So say the "pagan" live justly and come up with a whole pantheon of just and righteous gods and goddesses. Have they really abadoned the ways of the old faith.

What I'm saying is a rose by any other name is still a rose. You can call God, Mr. Bobomcjingles and call yourselves Gigijists for all i care, its how you act that matters.
But it must be the God. You cannot be a Muslim who does good works, die, find out the Bible was right and not the Qu'ran, and still go to heaven. Like every religion says that the most important commandment is to recognize that ____ is your God and the only God.

Like every religion says that the most important commandment is to recognize that ____ is your God and the only God.

There are several religions that aren't even theistic. You're terribly overinflating your religious literacy.

There are several religions that aren't even theistic. You're terribly overinflating your religious literacy.
"Like every" is meant to be interpreted as "most"

And I don't care for other religions. In terms of "proof" christianity stands alone.

"Like every" is meant to be interpreted as "most"

And I don't care for other religions. In terms of "proof" christianity stands alone.

Don't write things and then, when called out on it, say "Oh, but I really meant the exact opposite of what I said!" It doesn't work.

If you do not care about other religions, don't pretend as though you're able to hold a discussion on religion (which is what you're doing right now).

Don't write things and then, when called out on it, say "Oh, but I really meant the exact opposite of what I said!" It doesn't work.

If you do not care about other religions, don't pretend as though you're able to hold a discussion on religion (which is what you're doing right now).
You never heard people interject "like" randomly into a sentence before? Seriously.

This is not an "Only post here if you like all religions" thread. It is simply a religion thread. Christianity is a religion. So I will continue to post here

You never heard people interject "like" randomly into a sentence before? Seriously.

You used it incorrectly. "Like", in the context you refer to ("He is so, like, hot") is an emphatic modifier, not a synonym for "most".

I didn't say you had to "like" all religions before posting in this thread. I said that if you want to talk about them, instead of just preaching about Christianity (I can assure you you're not nearly as literate on that subject as you imagine) you should probably actually do some reading about them.

I was going to repost this thread with a bunch of frequently asked questions about religion as a whole, Christianity, atheism and agnosticism (the most frequent repeat offenders in the last thread) but I missed the chance. I'm going to rewrite the FAQ in a bit and post it and hopefully it can clear up some of your mischaracterizations regarding other religions (like the idea that they mostly share Protestant Christianity's lust for damning their opponents). Regardless, instead of spouting the philosophical equivalent of catchphrases (like you are doing in the other thread) and torturing the English language, do a bit of light reading at Wikipedia and don't maul my posts in your mind before replying.

It is slang, there is no "correct way to use it.
Angelic hates this thread enough. Let's not spam it up.

You've read 4-5 posts of mine and you think you know all about me. I'm not all about damning other relgiions, I'll leave the judgement to God. But they are of no use to me as I believe Christianity is the one true religion, and it is a very complicated one, so I will focus on understanding my own first.

I'm just saying religion is a set of moral ideas. To follow those moral ideas is in way acknowledging the existence of that god.

For instance, let's say you're walking down the street and come across a black cat. You avoid the black at all costs. Your friend ask "Why you do that? Are your supersticious." You can easily say "No, superstitions are a bunch of rubbish" In truth though, you just carried an idea of no letting a black cat cross your path.

In short, I think your god or goddess cares more about who you act according to their teaching than if you directly acknowledge them by a certain name. Yaweah, Allah and God are all basically the same omnipotent being. That's all.

I hate to get on your bad side, Angelic, but was it truly absolutely necessary to lock the thread and create a new one? I don't see what that achieved over simply private messaging the people who were flaming others. Also, I saw you flaming a people a few times myself in the religion thread. Don't you think that's a bit unfair? Don't get me wrong. I agree with most of the things you say, and I definately feel that some of the Christians on this board could do a bit better if they could just use their head a bit more, but even so I don't feel it justifies calling a stupid person stupid.

Think about it for a minute. Some of these Christians are brainwashed since childhood. They are constantly feed the same Christian bullshit over and over again. I remember how hard it was for me to turn down some of my Christian believes in my de-conversion. The very threat of hell is alone enough to keep them blindly believing God. Please remember that their "god" rules through fear. It's easier for people such as ourselves to see the problems of their religion now that we are free of it.

Also, discussing religion in terms of asking questions about another's religion is almost pointless to me. Just like a lot of the other threads here. You can easily google any question you have, and who honestly cares what another person's belief is? Most people probaly care about another's believe no more than they care about another's favorite food or anime. I have benefited greatly in debating in this thread. Though it is seems like going back and forth to you, for me, it is constantly researching new ideas.

For example, if someone makes a claim about God, it forces me to check to make sure that claim is true, or find a verse to prove it is incorrect. It forces me to research deeply people like Josephus Flavious to Eusbious (sp?) and so forth. Debating to me is almost a way of research-it constantly requires me to study more and more about Christianity. And though I haven't exactly de-converted anyone here, I have de-converted plenty of Christians elsewhere. Just planting a seed of doubt is enough for me.

It's also fun for me. It's interesting and amusing to hear similiar arguements, and like puzzles, look for logical fallacies to prove it wrong. Please don't take this as me attacking you, I just felt that need to see this looking at your closing statement in the other thread. Even if it is completely pointless to you for atheists and Christians to go back and forth, it isn't for me and the other people here. And it is no more pointless than the innumberable other threads on this site, with a very selected few as the exception.

Don't go there, Nightmare

Goodness, I go away for one weekend, and all this crap happens. Ok, time to debate again....


I hate to get on your bad side, Angelic, but was it truly absolutely necessary to lock the thread and create a new one?

The first real thing I've agreed with you so far. No, he didn't have to go lock that other thread. Come to think of it, he was doing most of the flaming anyway.


agree with most of the things you say, and I definately feel that some of the Christians on this board could do a bit better if they could just use their head a bit more, but even so I don't feel it justifies calling a stupid person stupid.


So, a person who believes in God, is stupid? You basically just said that in your post man! I think christians use their head quite a bit. How do you think we became to believe in God? We had to think, rationalize, to ourselves, He's indeed there. How mush thinking do you think that took? A hell of a lot. you, on the other hand, just say, "Oh, there's no proof, so He isn't there." You're not doing any real thinking at all. Yeah, I'm starting to also get the feeling that you a prejudice to those who are believers in Christianity. I hope that's not the case.


Some of these Christians are brainwashed since childhood.

Look a this guy! Calling Christians brain-washed.... Ha! The definition of brainwashed:

A forcible indoctrination to induce someone to give up basic political, social, or religious beliefs and attitudes and to accept contrasting regimented ideas.

There's your definition. Now, are we being forced into Christianity? Anyone here? I don't think so. Are we being forced to give up our basic beliefs for anything else? No? Ok then. So then, Nightmare, either your definitions of brainwashed are crossed with something else, or I just proved you wrong. I should have just looked up the word a long time ago.


And though I haven't exactly de-converted anyone here, I have de-converted plenty of Christians elsewhere. Just planting a seed of doubt is enough for me.


Those Christians you "deconverted" didn't have a very strong sense of faith. And, is it really your place to "deconvert" someone? Shouldn't it be their choice? That doesn't seem very fair to me.

@ Angelic

Look man, you yourself told me a long time ago that you weren't going to waste your time talking to any of us "stupid" Christians. And look at you, your ass was still up in there! You should really say what you mean. I thought you were being serious, but no. You just wanted an excuse to talk bad about something you don't understand, which is clearly, what you do. I think, that if you can't stop flaming people about something they believe in WHICH IS AGAINST THE RULES BY THE WAY, then you shouldn't post here at all. It's just like how Darksage said. At least we haven't gotten into a flame war amongst each other.

I don't know how you can talk about religion and not get into...religion. But okay Angelic, I'll bite.



If ya think about it. The politics of the time discriminated against Jews (because the region was predominately Christian). So to have a Jewish looking savior would have been distasteful at best. I suppose that in the era of Charlemaigne the leaders of the time made paintings of Jesus look more and more like them, Germanic. As time went on, the ideal Jesus sculpture had smooth, light skin and smooth white features.

ah yeah good point.

ok some muslims are being brainwashed with religion. you could probably do this with any other religion as well. Doesn't this make religion a threat in a way?

I'm just dropping a few words that have been bothering me.

Jesus was a camel jocky. Christ isn't a last name but another word for "Savior"
The christians of today and yesteryear used fear to round up their followers, as with all other religions. They drain their churches paying for their priest.

People have botched up everything and turned a good thing bad. Using the key principals from each religion is a good way to live. The general rules are about the same and they are principals that most all men and women can respect and follow. I'm not saying follow a paticular religion, I'm saying take the beliefs and think about them. After all the 10 commandments are really just a form of control. I can't trust that man is so innocent that they wouldn't fuck with an over 2000 year old document. For fucks sake, there is a typo in there. "Jebus"

How do you think we became to believe in God? We had to think, rationalize, to ourselves, He's indeed there.

I'm not sure "rationalize" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationalization_%28psychology%29) is the word you're looking for. On the other hand, to a lot of the non-religious, arguments for God look just like that: rationalizations.

Woah! I'd hate to see Angelics reaction to whats been said....@_@

Anyway, I think Christianity places too much emphasis on Jesus which causes people to attack their religion. Logically it cant have been Jesus who spread christianity.

In Islam there are about 400 messengers and 20000 prophets. Correct me if im wrong.

Ok, so I was wondering why Jesus was European and not any other race? If he was the Son of God, why would he be purely a Caucasian? Isn't God racist that way? If He was meant to be fair, then surely Jesus would have been of mixed race?

It seems you have been deluded by the Vast Left Wing Conspiracy. God is white, so white that he makes David Duke look racially mixed. It's them commies, Jews, and gays trying to lead you away from the Republican party and into an orgy of socialism.

Woah! I'd hate to see Angelics reaction to whats been said....@_@


I'll second that notion.
btw I do appologise for some of my rudeness in the last Religion thread.

but there is no way humans and dinosaurs could have lived together, im sorry we would have been easy pray for them.

back on topic no one ever truely answered my question from the last thread, it turned into a discussion about humans and dinosaurs in the "Garden of Eden" living together.

So why would god create a human with the body of a boy, but the heart mind and soul of a girl? and vise versa. And no more answeres that don't answer the question, because that is just avoiding the question. Why is it some of you guys will avoid answering a question when the answer defies your beliefs? you try to twist the question into an answer that in the end makes little or no sense at all.
I just want a legitimate answer to my question.

Where does it say God makes your body? It doesn't, so he didn't make yours, so you cant blame him. Gene defect, or mutation, or something, but not God.

That's just it, It also doesn't say he doesn't so either way you can't prove a thing and neither can I.

It does too. It says God creates the soul and only the soul.

"for Because the Father can make souls, fear not he who can destroy the body but the one who can destroy the body and the soul"

And Genesis tell humans go and multiply. Humans make the body and mind on their own. The soul is all God does.

Wow.. I don't know whether to debate for or against religion. I wouldn't consider myself an atheist since I do believe in 'something' 'somewhere'. Or rather, I *want* to believe in it. One of my thoughts was that religion was a human's creation to explain all the things that couldn't be explained. It's in our nature to feel the need to know things and not live in uncertainty. So I think religion is the answer for that. I won't give any examples since I don't read the bible - which brings me to my next point.

I don't understand why hardcore Christians almost always counter other people's opinions (against christianity) with extracts from the bible. It's like they have no word of their own, they just answer with a quotation from the bible. The bible was written by men, not by your God. Even if you call it the words of God - God himself did not write it.

So as you see, I don't really know where to stand. I can battle both for and against religion (not just Christianity) but it all makes it hard for me to participapte in this topic.

Actually, I feel the same way as you right now. I'm not the kind of person who just believes in something without reason, but I do want for there to be a God. I guess for me right now it's more of a hope than a belief..

And yet again I see only Christianity, Christianity and more Christianity. Give me one reason why I should not lock this thread.

Christianity is a religion last time I checked o.o

yeah, but this thread is called "Religion" and not "Christianity".

Not my fault most people here are Christian or set on proving Christianity right or wrong.

Rename it "Christianity" for all I care.

And yet again I see only Christianity, Christianity and more Christianity. Give me one reason why I should not lock this thread.

Um, do you see, any other religious beliefs being posted here? All there are are Christianity statements. What else is there to discuss? If there wasn't a discussion on Christianity, then this discussion would be dead.


Rename it "Christianity" for all I care.

I know. Sice he's so damn touchy about it. Geez.<_<

It does too. It says God creates the soul and only the soul.

"for Because the Father can make souls, fear not he who can destroy the body but the one who can destroy the body and the soul"

And Genesis tell humans go and multiply. Humans make the body and mind on their own. The soul is all God does.


BTW That still doesn't explain why I am the way I am.

I seek answers, and I don't think any religion in the world has those answers.

It's hard for me to believe in something when people claim God is the answer to everything yet none of them can explain why I am like this. most of the time they're just like "well, you're going to hell." and it's just a turn off for me because if you cant accept the fact that everyone in this world is different, and treat them with the same respect, why should you be treated any differently? I am not like that but it still bothers me.

BTW That still doesn't explain why I am the way I am.

I seek answers, and I don't think any religion in the world has those answers.

It's hard for me to believe in something when people claim God is the answer to everything yet none of them can explain why I am like this. most of the time they're just like "well, you're going to hell." and it's just a turn off for me because if you cant accept the fact that everyone in this world is different, and treat them with the same respect, why should you be treated any differently? I am not like that but it still bothers me.
You're asking to fix something that can't be "fixed." Shit happens, I dont know what you want me to say. Just because you were born differently and dont know why doesn't give you the right to say it's God's fault And reject him.

Actually I have the right to reject anything, man or god, it's free will that allows us to determine what we want to believe and what we refuse to believe. I can say that the sasquatch exhists, which is very possible cause there is supporting evidance that they might. its like you test 7,000 treatments for cancer and only 15 of them work, but since 6,985 treatments failed there is no cure. yet there are 15 potentially succesful treatments. the credible whitnesses outweigh the hoaxes. But I have the right not to believe in god and deny his exhistance just as you have the right to deny the exhistanse of the Sasquatch.

Thats what we call being naive, or ignorant. You have the right to believe in wat you want, yes, but to blame him is unacceptable, especially if you dont believe in him. Thats why God doesn't help people. It's all "me, me, me" and not "what cnan I do for others?"

No I am open to believing if some hard evidence comes up that he exhists, but so far there is none. When I countered all your theories about man living with dinosaurs your mind was set, that's ignorance!

No, I actually havent thought about that before XD
Hence my theories being so half-ass =P

BTW That still doesn't explain why I am the way I am.


Anime_Girl_Jenni, I can't even begin to phantom the emotional stress you go through everyday, so I'm not gonna sit here and act like I know what you're going through, cause I'm sure few of us really do. But, here's the thing: I think you're blaming God for something that is really man's fault. You see, people have it instilled in their heads that whatever is "different" is immediately considered wrong, but it's not necessarily. you're asking the impossible: We don't know why people are born gay, or trans, we just don't know why God would allow something like that to go on. So, you can stop asking us to explain it to you. Now, yes, there are genes, but one could say that God created the whole human genome, so that still put's it back on God's shoulders. Now, you're blaming God for something that people have been doing to you. That's why you're wrong. God has not done anything to you, at all. Once again, if you're the way you are, then God knows about it.


Thats what we call being naive, or ignorant. You have the right to believe in wat you want, yes, but to blame him is unacceptable, especially if you dont believe in him. Thats why God doesn't help people. It's all "me, me, me" and not "what cnan I do for others?"

Exactly. You can't really blame God, especially if you don't believe in Him, can you? So, back to my previous statement, it's people who have brought you down.

Since debating about christianity will take forever, why not add something so the whole thread doesnt turn into "Christianity"?

I've been studying a little on Chinese religions, and so far the religions come up as "Taoist" "confucist" and "Buddhist". I'll leave the buddhism aside, and discuss on the less discussed religions.

So far Taoism is a belief in nature, and yin and yang. The question is, what is really the main point in this religion, and how do people become attracted to it?

Confucism is the belief in social order (I think.), where relationships are established like a class system, where one must respect the other and know their position in society. (ex. younger must respect elder, women must respect men. Inferiority also counts.)

What are the good points in confucism? Which religions do more people follow? What is your opinion on these religions? Would you follow these religions if you had a choice?

yeah, but this thread is called "Religion" and not "Christianity".

You could always respond to my general religion question on page 1.

I one for discussing different religions, just as much as the other guy. Still
Angelic, the members online are a majority of Christians (or at least Jewish or Islamic), getting into this discussion was inevitable. But can't just shut down every thread that doesn't "discuss things the right way". I mean, no one here has taken any theological Buddhist classes or any other religious classes for that matter.

I want any one to raise their hand if the Analects is your holy text...thought so.

Do not get me wrong, I encourage other Asian, Middle Eastern or other religions to speak, I'm just saying that a religion post that says "Every religion, except Christians because they talk about their religion to much" is a wee bit contradicting

Since debating about christianity will take forever, why not add something so the whole thread doesnt turn into "Christianity"?

Sorry, but I guess people ignoired your post. I just hope people will also stop making their post less exact about Christianity and more general to fit into other religious stuff-crap... *miss-spellings?*

*Sorry to turn off your subject Hiei..*

When someone is born and raised into a religion they tend to believe that the one religion, which ever that could be, is the only true religion. Lets just assume Darksage was born into a hardcore Pegan family. He will be raised to think that Pegan is the only way any be exposed to it more then any other religion. Common sense only exposes that he would probably discredit Christianity to prove his Pegan ways is the only way in life.

So its like fighting with someone because your brother has told from when you were born that Vanilla is better then Orange Sherbert. You were raised that way so you believe its right. I on the other hand say that Pina Colada's are better for I was given many as a child. Am I stupid and wrong because I enjoy what you dont and vice versa?


And I don't care for other religions. In terms of "proof" christianity stands alone.

Stands alone because it has the least amount of proof I guess. So yes, your right for once.

~

I think the attration people have to Taoism is that they believe the world should be balanced (ying-yang anyone?) to create peace. To much water creates chaos, as does to much fire. To make peace you balance it out.. I guess. Thats a general idea of Taoism(?).

And yet again I see only Christianity, Christianity and more Christianity. Give me one reason why I should not lock this thread.

I'll give you several good reasons:

1.) It really isn't hurting or bothering anyone but yourself.

2.) Even if we assume it is bothering someone, all it takes is finding the will to not click on the thread.

3.) Let's face it. Christianity is the dominating religion of the United States, and also one of the most discussed religions around. I would imagine that most (not all) of hte people here know more about Christianity than any other religion.

4.) Just because this is completely pointless to you, doesn't mean it is pointless to everyone else.

5.) Just because you're tired of hearing things about Christianity, doesn't mean everyone else is.

6.) Just because you want to talk about other religions, doesn't mean everyone else does.

7.) This is a place to learn. An interesting way of learning about how other people believe things. I've encountered Christians here who believe that the bible is perfect and without contradictions, people who believe the bible has it's problems and that you have to take it's overall message, and so forth. I learn things about how other people think, and vice versa.

Overall, the basic message is that just because you don't find this thread appealing and that it isn't interesting enough to you, doesn't mean it should be locked and closed. If you can't enjoy a good debate from this thread, then just stay out of it and stop trying to spoil things for other people. So please, Angelic. I respect the fact that you find it bothersome that we discuss Christianity so much, but can you please just let it go?

Here's my opinion, since we know that debating over the issues in christianity will last forever, atleast please add some other religion questions for debate. I know this is a religion thread and that christianity is a religion, but talking all about christianity kind of ruins the purpose of the religion thread.


2.) Even if we assume it is bothering someone, all it takes is finding the will to not click on the thread.

That did not make any sense. The person who never read this thread does not know what is in it, so the user will click on it expecting a topic full of religious discussions (concering more than one religion atleast in the whole thread). The person who reads the thread before and is bothered by the numerous amounts of christianity debate would still read the thread, hoping for atleast an insight on another religion. Your making it sound like this thread is all about christianity and not anything else.

My recommendation: Start a christianity thread. (This is my recommendation and it does not mean I am enforcing it or wanting it to be done.)

So after they click it, they hit the "Close" button and don't click it again? It's not like as soon as you click you're forced to reply...

I never said or imply that one must reply.

In response to your post,


The person who reads the thread before and is bothered by the numerous amounts of christianity debate would still read the thread, hoping for atleast an insight on another religion.

The only possibility of one that finally gives up on reading it is when it keeps seeing the same debate over and over again which I hope wont happen as much.

Actually I stopped visting this thread do to the fact that it is truly repetive.

What gets me in this subject is the complete lack of study Religious people do for other religions. From what I've seen in my life, most Christians don't have a clue what is taught in Confusionism, and most Muslem don't know where Tarot readings orginated from (it's actually a devation off of a French card game, a Jewish practice of Mysticism, based on the archetype "Tree of Life", called the Qabbalah, and a few others).

Realize that it is not bad for you to study other religions for means of understanding.

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/4930/happyhuman3jn.png

How many people know this symbol? Those of you that do, already realize that you are a minority of the worlds religious population, but that doesn't matter to you. Instead you are busy trying to make the world a better place.

For those of you that don't know, the above picture is the "Happy Human", a common icon for all Humanist. A Humanist--to give a simple definition--is someone who rejects the supernatural, and focuses more on how you live out your life; based on morals, values, history, rationality, and personal experence.

[/education]

Now for my statement. How would another religious group look at this? Why is it considered "wrong" to those against this belief? I have to say, I'm rather new with the whole Humanist Ideal system and haven't looked into it too much, but it describes me quite well--I guess you could say that I'm a Humanist in a way. Intervention by a divine being has yet to be documented in anything other than books that people call "holy".

While a divine being may exist, it is clear that the being does not want to intervene on our life. Even so, I do believe that he wouldn't be asking us to be thankful for what we have for our lifetime. More so, I believe s/he would prefer the idea that we would take that time and gain experences, rather than be completely submitting our thoughts to them.

Here's my opinion, since we know that debating over the issues in christianity will last forever, atleast please add some other religion questions for debate. I know this is a religion thread and that christianity is a religion, but talking all about christianity kind of ruins the purpose of the religion thread.

I apologize if I seem to have given the wrong impression. I meant to say that Christianity happens to be the topic that is most interesting to talk about. If you or anyone else have something interesting to say about another religion, or the morality in it, then I would be more than happy to discuss it with you. Sadly, as I am not familiar with most other religions or they do not bother me, I don't believe you or most other people have much to offer to this thread that could peak my interests in a discussion. I believe that several other people in this thread share my views.

I do think, though, that starting a thread on Christianity might not be a bad idea, for Angelic's sake at least.

Oddly enough, I agree. If you want to talk about buddhism, hinduism, humanism, or any other religions, why not make a specific thread Angelic?

Not going to happen. Why seperate Christianity from other religions? If people want to talk about other religions, then they are welcome to do so here - and if no one replies, then there is no interest in it. Simple as that.

Most people dont talk about other religions because either

They dont give a damn or...

They dont know anything about it or enough to talk about it so stop biting peoples heads off (Not directed to Angelic)

I just don't want this thread becoming a pro-Christian propaganda thread on one side and some "Why-Christianity-isn't-all-that-great" thread on the other side. The discussion in the last topic was just repeating the same shit over and over again. "God exist!" "No, he doesn't!" "Yes, he does!" etc etc etc.

Saddly enough, that's what socity has been doing for the past couple of centuries. Look at Israel: how many years has that relgious war been held?

For as long as Israel has been there and started stealing land from surrounding countries because "According to their little holy book it belonged to them".

The ideas behind religion might not be too bad, but the way it's carried out these days plain sucks. Take the bible for instance. Those stories are probably based on things that happened, but other than that they're not real. They're not a recording of what happened back then. They are stories with a message, written down ages after the actual event happened. People who take the bible litterally are fools who don't know what they are talking about.

The bible was meant to guide us, not to actually teach us. Moses never split a sea, Jesus never fed hundreds of people with five pieces of bread and two fish. The stories are symbolic and if you can't even realise that, you shouldn't be allowed to participate in any religion but be sent back to school where they teach you the difference between fairy tails and reality.

Edit: I'm using the bible as an example here, but this also applies to other holy books. They shouldn't be taken litteral. I used the bible as example because that's the only holy book I actually read.

Well, how do you want the argument to go? I mean you can't say I sorta kinda believe in a god (or goddess) or I am sorta kind an atheist. I'm just not sure what everyone kows what you meant to accomplish by putting up this thread. We could discuss other religions, by like yousee said, we just don't have enough informatian. I don't think anyone is prepared to talk about something that they have no idea about and start being a hypocrite, just because we want to get this thread going.

For as long as Israel has been there and started stealing land from surrounding countries because "According to their little holy book it belonged to them".

The ideas behind religion might not be too bad, but the way it's carried out these days plain sucks. Take the bible for instance. Those stories are probably based on things that happened, but other than that they're not real. They're not a recording of what happened back then. They are stories with a message, written down ages after the actual event happened. People who take the bible litterally are fools who don't know what they are talking about.

The bible was meant to guide us, not to actually teach us. Moses never split a sea, Jesus never fed hundreds of people with five pieces of bread and two fish. The stories are symbolic and if you can't even realise that, you shouldn't be allowed to participate in any religion but be sent back to school where they teach you the difference between fairy tails and reality.

Edit: I'm using the bible as an example here, but this also applies to other holy books. They shouldn't be taken litteral. I used the bible as example because that's the only holy book I actually read.
They weren't written ages after Jesus lived. The earliest Gospel was 40-50 years after Jesus death, by His Apostle

And about the Red Sea comment, I think there's actual evidence of Moses splitting it. I read somewhere that there is a straight path on the floor of that sea where there's no salt. At all. That would only happen if all the water receded.

And about the Red Sea comment, I think there's actual evidence of Moses splitting it. I read somewhere that there is a straight path on the floor of that sea where there's no salt. At all. That would only happen if all the water receded.

Yes, there are tons of articals about the findings of chariot wheels, horse and human bones etc... although I think most people want to believe it happened rather than facing the truth.

Yes, there are tons of articals about the findings of chariot wheels, horse and human bones etc... although I think most people want to believe it happened rather than facing the truth.
That is probably true, but if there's proof is there really a difference?

I didn't say anything about proof.. :mellow: The people who are looking for (physical) evidence of the Exodus "Red sea crossing" are very likely to 'force' evidence to pop up.

There could be so many reasons why there's charriots and stuff on the bottom. They could have fallen of a ship or something, who knows?

And about the no salt comment: If the water came back there would be salt again right? Even if the sea was split for a few minutes/hours/days, then the salt should return as soon as the water returned.

There could be so many reasons why there's charriots and stuff on the bottom. They could have fallen of a ship or something, who knows?


Wow, yeah, ok. Back in times before history was even written down, they had big ships that could hold thousands of chariots, horses, men, and weapons. That's really practical.;)
All joking aside, even if that was the case(which, I'm positive it isn't), then that wouldn't explain how the Israelites got across.


And about the no salt comment: If the water came back there would be salt again right? Even if the sea was split for a few minutes/hours/days, then the salt should return as soon as the water returned.

But that's not what he's saying. There isn't any salt there. He's not questioning whether it's true or not.

Wow, yeah, ok. Back in times before history was even written down, they had big ships that could hold thousands of chariots, horses, men, and weapons. That's really practical.;)
All joking aside, even if that was the case(which, I'm positive it isn't), then that wouldn't explain how the Israelites got across.



But that's not what he's saying. There isn't any salt there. He's not questioning whether it's true or not.

No one ever said there were thousands of chariots, horses, men and weapons either. Could have been a few dozen.

And he might not be saying it, but in this context it's kind of clear it's what he's aiming at. What else would he mean?

And maybe the Jews never actually got across? Maybe they actually went around and the story got twisted over time? Remember, even if the bible was written 50 years after Jesus lived, this is all a long time before that and stories that get told from one generation to another easily get changed and twisted. One man said they went around it, a next man says they went through, a third one questions how that could happen and says that the sea had been split in two.

Another popular theory is, which in fact has been researched, is that in that time there was a part of the red sea that was quite shallow. I don't know the exact details but apparently during low tides the sea might have been shallow enough to walk through the water from one side to another. Then the farao tried the same but the water rised when he was half way and he and his army drowned because they couldn't reach the other side in time.

Of course, these are just theories but they are based just as likely as Moses actually splitting the sea. Let's not discuss this particular subject anymore, we won't convince eachother anyway and I don't want this topic to become a yes and no game again.

I wanna know where the hell you get 40 virgins for sacrificing yourself. Who would honestly want a virgin 40 times over? Sometimes we want exp XD

You know... That' didn't help in any particular way.... And I don't seem to follow your logic on how that relates.

One thing about the Christian bible that you may already know and it's kind of logical. Anyway the bible is made up of different books (NO FREAKING WAY!!) written by followers of the Lord. All these books came to be the bible we have today, I believe, were put together a long time ago by the Catholic church. There are other scriptures that weren't included in the bible for some reason, wether they expose the truths about the present scripture or they are full of crap, who knows.

There could be so many reasons why there's charriots and stuff on the bottom. They could have fallen of a ship or something, who knows?

And about the no salt comment: If the water came back there would be salt again right? Even if the sea was split for a few minutes/hours/days, then the salt should return as soon as the water returned.
No the salt wouldnt all go back. There's like layers of it on the ocean floor, and so much salt is in each layer and a layer is formed over the period of so many years, so they can figure out how long ago it happened by comparing the deepness of the missing salt path to the rest in thre red sea, and it came to be about 3500 years ago, the exact time of Moses.

You can ony keep saying "coincidence" for so long.

Oh, it is known that there were several more books that could have been added to the bible, but the church either deemed them as too sacred for the general public.

First were the 15 books of Apocrypha (full text found here (http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/apo/index.htm)), there were also 28 books mention without being included in the bible.

No the salt wouldnt all go back. There's like layers of it on the ocean floor, and so much salt is in each layer and a layer is formed over the period of so many years, so they can figure out how long ago it happened by comparing the deepness of the missing salt path to the rest in thre red sea, and it came to be about 3500 years ago, the exact time of Moses.

You can ony keep saying "coincidence" for so long.

If he split the sea for only several hours or so then there would be salt in that place. If there's a whole layer without salt that means there hadn't been salt there for several years, which in fact works against the story of Moses splitting the sea and works in favour of the theory of at time there being a shallow part or even a part that was completely above water, which the jews used to cross the sea.

Anyway, let us not go on about this, you have your view and I have mine.

If he split the sea for only several hours or so then there would be salt in that place. If there's a whole layer without salt that means there hadn't been salt there for several years, which in fact works against the story of Moses splitting the sea and works in favour of the theory of at time there being a shallow part or even a part that was completely above water, which the jews used to cross the sea.

Anyway, let us not go on about this, you have your view and I have mine.
No, when water receds it takes everything with it..... like seaweed washing onto a shore, and since salt is much smaller... yea.

Why not continue it? I think arguing facts is better than the crap last time.

The point is that salt dissolves in water, so the water itself is salty. So, it can't be washed away, there can only be a layer of saltless ground if there's no salt water on it for quite some time.

Talk about religion here. HAve some stupid flamewars like in the other religion thread. Why the fuck would I care?

This is the most stupid thread there is because Christians are generally too stupid to even think about what other people have to say.
:blink:

Just keep proding, people. He'll close any and every thread that relates to religion. Yes, it is hypocritical. Deal with it. But do not deny that it is not true, either. I'm not saying that the word choice Angelic used was right, nor am I implying that any one of you is/are stupid. It is the fact that there are quite a few "Glass Eyed" followers that simply say that Christianity is the only true path, without taking the time to analize the situation properly or they claim things in the name of Faith without any thought on how reliable the information is.

Wow, yeah, ok. Back in times before history was even written down, they had big ships that could hold thousands of chariots, horses, men, and weapons. That's really practical.;)

Before history was written down? HA! I could say the same to you and your religious ideas!

*I just poked with the bubble Angelic set up with this thread :P)

We are the ones that believe in freedom and rights of an
individual. It's that big moron up there that leaves you humans to your
own devices. Everyone says, 'the devil made me do it.' That simply isn't
true. Humans do what they want to do; god is the ass that never steps in
to take responsibility for his creation. He blames it all on us who he
chooses to damn and all this other "evil" stuff. The devil didn't make
hell, god made hell. It's his punishment for those that don't choose to
bow down and kiss his sandals like little mindless puppies.

this is a quote from one of my favorite stories, and I have to say, I agree with some of it's points.

Just keep proding, people. He'll close any and every thread that relates to religion. Yes, it is hypocritical. Deal with it. But do not deny that it is not true, either. I'm not saying that the word choice Angelic used was right, nor am I implying that any one of you is/are stupid. It is the fact that there are quite a few "Glass Eyed" followers that simply say that Christianity is the only true path, without taking the time to analize the situation properly or they claim things in the name of Faith without any thought on how reliable the information is.

That's exactly it. And their ignorance pisses me off so much that I get myself worked up over it a lot. I see no difference between them and muslim terrorist. In the end they're all ignorant fools. That's my opinion on them. The other day a friend said that he believed in God. Did I make fun of him? Of course not, he also accepted that I don't believe in God. Didn't condemn me to hell or anything, didn't say that people who don't believe are sinners or anything. I just hate the people who are too ignorant to see that there are more ways that are right. If you say Christianity is the only way, that means that you're completely brainwashed by the bible.

....................


That's exactly it. And their ignorance pisses me off so much that I get myself worked up over it a lot.

You know what? I've just lost all respect for you. I have absolutely none for you. You can't accept the fact that people believe in God? you focus THAT much energy into insulting our intelligence? You have no respect for people who are different from your beliefs. Shame on you and your immaturity. Shame on you.


see no difference between them and muslim terrorist.

That' was uncalled for. You're an idiot(yes, my first intentional flame). How can you compare someone who's Christian, who does good things, and a Muslim terorist the same? That, makes absolutely no sense, at all. YOU make no sense at all. You obviously are too uniformed to know what a terrorist is. Look it up for yourself. Maybe then your mind can understand the difference between the two.


The other day a friend said that he believed in God. Did I make fun of him? Of course not, he also accepted that I don't believe in God. Didn't condemn me to hell or anything, didn't say that people who don't believe are sinners or anything. I just hate the people who are too ignorant to see that there are more ways that are right. If you say Christianity is the only way, that means that you're completely brainwashed by the bible.

Not once, has any Christian here, condemned you to Hell. Not ONCE! That's not our say! It's God's! And if a Christian has condemned anyone, that's not their place. God is the only one who can judge(and Jesus). Angelic, I don't know who you've been talking to, but they are misinformed on the ways of Christianity. But, then again, you come across as the know-it-all smartass, so I'd expect you to go out and find out the truth for yourself, which, you clearly haven't done. Nice job, dude, nice.


Before history was written down? HA! I could say the same to you and your religious ideas!


I... Don't understand how that has any relevance to what I just said.....


Talk about religion here. HAve some stupid flamewars like in the other religion thread. Why the fuck would I care?

You obviously care enough, cause your ass is trying to cause problems....


This is the most stupid thread there is because Christians are generally too stupid to even think about what other people have to say.

Look at that! Look! What the hell is that! Am I the only one here who notices this? How the hell does someone get away with saying that? You're the one who's stupid! You know why? Cause you're too damn closed minded. You can't understand why people see things like God, so you brand us as stupid. You, are stupid. YOU are closed-minded. And YOU, Angelic, are a poor excuse of an Admin. An immature, closed-minded, fool, who won't take the time to understand Christians for what they believe. Yeah, you really pushed my buttons this time. If you wanted a reaction from me, you got it. Now, deal with it, cause I don't take any of it back. Flame me all you want back, cause all I'm gonna do is get my friends and we're all gonna laugh at whatever you say. Cause what you say, is really dumb.


No one ever said there were thousands of chariots, horses, men and weapons either. Could have been a few dozen.


Oh, ok, yeah. So, they would send a few dozen to bring back thousands of Israelites? Yeah, nice way of using your head there.


And maybe the Jews never actually got across? Maybe they actually went around and the story got twisted over time?

Um, where is Egpyt? In Africa. Now, to get to the the Promised Land, they would have had to cross the Red Sea. Look at a map. The only way they could have went "around" was to go through presnt-day Cairo into Jordon, and with the Pharoh wanting his slaves back, he would have set up defenses along every way out possible. Crossing the sea would have been their only option.
Also, they would need to go through Egypt to get to that little bit of land, and that would have made it easier for them to be recaptured.


Another popular theory is, which in fact has been researched, is that in that time there was a part of the red sea that was quite shallow. I don't know the exact details but apparently during low tides the sea might have been shallow enough to walk through the water from one side to another. Then the farao tried the same but the water rised when he was half way and he and his army drowned because they couldn't reach the other side in time.


It sounds like a miracle to me.


Let's not discuss this particular subject anymore, we won't convince eachother anyway and I don't want this topic to become a yes and no game again.

Guess what. It is a yes and no debate. You don't want to be in it, and if it pisses you off THAT much, then get your ass out. Simple as that.

....................



You know what? I've just lost all respect for you. I have absolutely none for you. You can't accept the fact that people believe in God? you focus THAT much energy into insulting our intelligence? You have no respect for people who are different from your beliefs. Shame on you and your immaturity. Shame on you.

That's exactly it. And their ignorance pisses me off so much that I get myself worked up over it a lot. I see no difference between them and muslim terrorist. In the end they're all ignorant fools. That's my opinion on them. The other day a friend said that he believed in God. Did I make fun of him? Of course not, he also accepted that I don't believe in God. Didn't condemn me to hell or anything, didn't say that people who don't believe are sinners or anything. I just hate the people who are too ignorant to see that there are more ways that are right. If you say Christianity is the only way, that means that you're completely brainwashed by the bible.
:blink:


That' was uncalled for. You're an idiot(yes, my first intentional flame). How can you compare someone who's Christian, who does good things, and a Muslim terorist the same? That, makes absolutely no sense, at all. YOU make no sense at all. You obviously are too uniformed to know what a terrorist is. Look it up for yourself. Maybe then your mind can understand the difference between the two.

George Bush is a Christian. And he invades countries not only for the sake of America's safety, but he also likes to say he does it in the name of God, for the good of God's work.
Same thing with the extreme Muslims, they do their deeds for Allah.

Look at that! Look! What the hell is that!
:lol::lol::lol:

Angelic, I'd like to know your stance on the Vatican and the will of the Church. I for one hate the fact that they rely so much on the Bible, you can't have gay sex marriage because the Bible says so etc. but you can't deny that the Church does good things for the community(social welfare and the likes, at least where I live)

I'm going to participate in a doorknock appeal on Sunday to raise money to help the Salvation Army. I don't know if you have this organization where you live, but here in Australia, the Salvation Army is a Christian denomination which helps with millions of dollars that goes to welfare and the likes. In fact, Christian missions such as the Salvation Army, their efforts in generating money and reaching out to others account to about half of the social welfare support here in Australia, only second (if not, slightly superceding) the governments involvement.

The point is that salt dissolves in water, so the water itself is salty. So, it can't be washed away, there can only be a layer of saltless ground if there's no salt water on it for quite some time.
I'd rather say that the oceanologist (or whoever) is right being that he went to school for this and you didn't. It has to do with something about the pressure when you're that far down I think.

....................



You know what? I've just lost all respect for you. I have absolutely none for you. You can't accept the fact that people believe in God? you focus THAT much energy into insulting our intelligence? You have no respect for people who are different from your beliefs. Shame on you and your immaturity. Shame on you.



That' was uncalled for. You're an idiot(yes, my first intentional flame). How can you compare someone who's Christian, who does good things, and a Muslim terorist the same? That, makes absolutely no sense, at all. YOU make no sense at all. You obviously are too uniformed to know what a terrorist is. Look it up for yourself. Maybe then your mind can understand the difference between the two.



Not once, has any Christian here, condemned you to Hell. Not ONCE! That's not our say! It's God's! And if a Christian has condemned anyone, that's not their place. God is the only one who can judge(and Jesus). Angelic, I don't know who you've been talking to, but they are misinformed on the ways of Christianity. But, then again, you come across as the know-it-all smartass, so I'd expect you to go out and find out the truth for yourself, which, you clearly haven't done. Nice job, dude, nice.



I... Don't understand how that has any relevance to what I just said.....



You obviously care enough, cause your ass is trying to cause problems....



Look at that! Look! What the hell is that! Am I the only one here who notices this? How the hell does someone get away with saying that? You're the one who's stupid! You know why? Cause you're too damn closed minded. You can't understand why people see things like God, so you brand us as stupid. You, are stupid. YOU are closed-minded. And YOU, Angelic, are a poor excuse of an Admin. An immature, closed-minded, fool, who won't take the time to understand Christians for what they believe. Yeah, you really pushed my buttons this time. If you wanted a reaction from me, you got it. Now, deal with it, cause I don't take any of it back. Flame me all you want back, cause all I'm gonna do is get my friends and we're all gonna laugh at whatever you say. Cause what you say, is really dumb.



Oh, ok, yeah. So, they would send a few dozen to bring back thousands of Israelites? Yeah, nice way of using your head there.



Um, where is Egpyt? In Africa. Now, to get to the the Promised Land, they would have had to cross the Red Sea. Look at a map. The only way they could have went "around" was to go through presnt-day Cairo into Jordon, and with the Pharoh wanting his slaves back, he would have set up defenses along every way out possible. Crossing the sea would have been their only option.
Also, they would need to go through Egypt to get to that little bit of land, and that would have made it easier for them to be recaptured.



It sounds like a miracle to me.



Guess what. It is a yes and no debate. You don't want to be in it, and if it pisses you off THAT much, then get your ass out. Simple as that.

You're a fucking moron.

Yeah, I know that my choice of words is often wrong, and that I often say things before considering they might offend others. However, that doesn't make me an idiot. I have my beliefs and as long as those are respected, I don't mind respecting the belief of others. However, Christians like you never seem to respect anything anyone else says.


Guess what. It is a yes and no debate.

As you can see from that. Your truth is the only truth and you won't accept that people think otherwise even after I tried to point that out and prevent something like this from happening again. If you attack me one more time, consider yourself banned for a week, I'm trying my best to keep this thing going without flames, I really am. Okay, maybe I'm not doing the best I can but at least I'm not gonna shout that the bible is the bloody fucking only thing in the world that's true. If you believe the bible FINE, if you believe in God FINE but for FUCK'S SAKE accept that I FUCKING DON'T AND WITH ME A WHOLE FUCKING LOT OF PEOPLE! So fucking STOP shouting that the bible states the truth and there's no discussion possible or get the fuck lost from this DISCUSSION.

Calm down before you have a heart attack O_O

You're a fucking moron.

It takes one to know one. Good you know SOMETHING......


However, that doesn't make me an idiot.

Ah HA! Yeah, ok, nice.


However, Christians like you never seem to respect anything anyone else says.


Ok, so I should respect you calling me ignorant, stupid, and a terrorist? Yeah, shut your mouth.


If you attack me one more time, consider yourself banned for a week,

If you don't want to be attacked, then don't attack others. Follow your own advice!


Okay, maybe I'm not doing the best I can but at least I'm not gonna shout that the bible is the bloody fucking only thing in the world that's true. If you believe the bible FINE, if you believe in God FINE but for FUCK'S SAKE accept that I FUCKING DON'T AND WITH ME A WHOLE FUCKING LOT OF PEOPLE! So fucking STOP shouting that the bible states the truth and there's no discussion possible or get the fuck lost from this DISCUSSION.
__________________


Look, I never said my way was the only way. I know there are other religions out there. You want to interpret things the way you want to, not the way they really are. I don't care if you believe in him or not. Not once did I say that not believing in God is wrong. YOU need to check yourself, fast, cause you're the one who thinks your way is the only "smart and intelligent" way. Sounds a bit narcisistic to me....

The Golden Rule isn't always so golden =P

Hehe, I'm sorry but everytime I see angelic flame someone I nearly cry from laughing. Your just so straight forward, and its all so true! You just summed him up with one statement:

"You're a fucking moron."

Now, I myself have been loosing faith little by little, day by day simply because hell, nothing ever turns out right for me. And if that is God's way of punishing me for sinning he can fuck off. I don't need his guidence anymore. If I go to hell for trying to take control of my own life, so be it. I'm just accepting that if god really gave a damn, he would know that these past current events were truly life changing, and he abandoned me in my time of need so that now, the next 5 years of my life are going to be truly fucked up. So I refuse to believe that that is his way of punishing me, he simply just wasn't there. So fuck him, he isn't welcome in my mind anymore.

Hehe, I'm sorry but everytime I see angelic flame someone I nearly cry from laughing. Your just so straight forward, and its all so true! You just summed him up with one statement:

"You're a fucking moron."

Now, I myself have been loosing faith little by little, day by day simply because hell, nothing ever turns out right for me. And if that is God's way of punishing me for sinning he can fuck off. I don't need his guidence anymore. If I go to hell for trying to take control of my own life, so be it. I'm just accepting that if god really gave a damn, he would know that these past current events were truly life changing, and he abandoned me in my time of need so that now, the next 5 years of my life are going to be truly fucked up. So I refuse to believe that that is his way of punishing me, he simply just wasn't there. So fuck him, he isn't welcome in my mind anymore.
So you're losing your faith in God because you feel he hasn't done anything for you? How has God abandoned you? Did you expect him to do something for you in the first place?

EDIT: Angelic, answer my "FUCKING" question ;)

cause you're the one who thinks your way is the only "smart and intelligent" way. Sounds a bit narcisistic to me....
...
You can't accept the fact that people believe in God?

I dont see him saying that his way is the only "smart and intelligent" way. You think that he is. He has already stated before that he respects people who believe in god as long as they respect him for not believing in it. Instead of accepting it you continue to agrue over how Angelic is stupid because he doesnt believe in god, and because of that you continue picking at it. Your obviously proving nothing but your own ignorance.

Dont fight fire with fire, and accept his disbelief in god.

So you're losing your faith in God because you feel he hasn't done anything for you? How has God abandoned you? Did you expect him to do something for you in the first place?

EDIT: Angelic, answer my "FUCKING" question ;)

I never expected him to do anything for me, I expected he wouldn't let things get so fucked up when it aint even my fault. I find no use in praying anymore, for my prayers are not answered. It seems everytime something very little that is good happens to me, something serious fucks up someone around me. I don't blame myself either, I just find it ironic. Is God not there to help? Or is there something I missed in all of my teachings.

Wow, this religion thread makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

Just one question, is it so bad that one person believes in a certain thing, and believes that that idea is true, and tries to encourage others to believe it?

Yes, in fact it is. It instantly means that that person does not accept what other people are thinking. We have a word for that kind of people over here, they are called Jehovah's witnesses. Most people just call them annoying though.

@mysterjw: I hold no sides to that. People have the right to believe if they want to, but their faith eventually becomes a type of truth to them. When that happens people tend to disagree, and the believer tries to persuade someone to believe in what they think is true, but in actuality the entire thought is based off of faith.

So it's not nessesarly a problem, but the way believers go about it is distasteful to those that decide not to believe.

For instance, I don't believe in the church. It's nothing but a business place. It even says it in the bible that only the pharisies(sp?) like the church and empty a great deal of money, thinking they do good. It also says that you should go to your room lock your door and pray. So what is the point of church? Community? Not really. You can do that at charitible functions, or with other good will projects. What purpose is a minister? They call them a leader that talks about the words in the bible, but they are no more than any psycologist with literature background, taking in a certain percentage given in by offerings from the people in the church.

Now some would say I'd go to hell for that, or call me a sinner. They would claim that the church is a place that is deemed holy, and that you can only rid yourself of sin through the leader via holy sacrament. They also claim that the chuch exists for the common good, and to provide a place for those whom are still in question. Yet another claim is that you get the output of a highly educated minister from a gospel or other readings from a church.

Which side do you choose?

It seems everytime something very little that is good happens to me, something serious fucks up someone around me. I don't blame myself either, I just find it ironic.

Sorry for getting offtopic, but thats exactly what I experience. Just a small happy thought that makes me happy throughout the day, then something serious comes crashing down and just brings me back to damning the whole world.


Which side do you choose?

I'd choose the side that knows how to control their own faith and indulgence in religion. If noone can do that then I'd go with the anti-religion side.

@M I encourage people to voice their opinions, and I support the rights to do that. If people never voice their opinions, the world never changes. America would still be segregated and women here couldn't vote are two examples where people bugged the crap out of society to change it for the better in their views. (I personally would side with women's suffrage and black rights but I'm sure many people at the time had Angelic's view against the women's rights 'missionaries')

Of course we are talking about the rights of religious people to change the world, but I think we shouldn't have a double standard considering anything can be viewed as religion.

What I don't think Angelic understands is that if you believe in Jesus you are obligated to preach the Gospel. If we dont, then we are hypocrites for saying we believe but don't do what's expected of us. Jesus was called Rabbi (Teacher) for a reason. You can't "teach" unless your "students' are willing to learn. Those who want to hear about this, continue looking at this thread. Those who don't care, stop posting here. It's not anyone's fault you feel the need to come here and get all worked up if you dont believe.

Indeed, teach those who want to know, teach them. Those who don't care, leave them alone. I'm one of those who don't care about the teachings of the Christian belief. And why should I stop looking at this thread? I don't recall this being a Christian teaching thread. In fact, if it becomes that I'll close this thread because if people want to learn about Christianity they can go to the church.

No one is forcing you to reply. We don't have to "leave you alone." The fact you keep responding to replies regarding Christianity shows that you do care, or just have no life.

And if they want to learn about Judaism then can go to a mosque, Buddhism, a temple, etc etc. seriously thats stupid

Then I guess we have no more need for this topic, now do we? We've already had the discussion about whether God exists or not for over half a year or so, and we still don't have an answer or an agreement or anything.

Don't expect to find an answer for "Does God exist?" =P This thread is for discussing and arguing, not to settle an agreement.

Ok, now that we have all of this out of our system, let's take a deep breath..hold it...relax. Again, deep breath...hold it...relax.

GOOD

Now, I propose a new topic here for discussion. Lets turn back time to WWII. The Nazi's are persecuting the people of the Jewish faith. At first, it is peaceful, giving them time to leave the country on their own free will, but then things get worse and you know the rest of the story. My question is, why did the people of the Jewish faith not revolt? There was an attempt once but it failed. For the most part though, they went along with what the Nazi's told them to do.

I think its because the Jews did not really know that The Nazi's are planning "the final solution" for them. Either way, not many people would be able to leave because

1) The U.S. had already accepted many Jewish immigrants because of Hitler's warning, and the U.S. had to stop because of overpopulation.
2) Not many Jews would have enough money to even transport to America during the time.

I was thinking that maybe neighboring countries wouldve accepted Jewish immigrants, but I dont know how that worked out or if it didnt.

You see my thing is, If someone came into your house in the middle of the night and said "Leave everything behind and board this train." Wouldn't people who heard about this get together and form an armed upriseing, even if all their efforts were in vain? It happened once, but shouldn't it happen more often afterwards?

@Hiei: Running to other countries doesn't help if the nazi's are invading there after a while does it? A lot of Jews came to the Netherlands for example, then came Hitler. Anyone know the story of Anne Frank? Her family came from Germany but they were caught in Amsterdam a few months before the war ended. Only the father came back alive.

@Porsche: People are scared and the Nazi's had tight controls. It's hard to form an uprising on a large scale when people are scared and there are checks everywhere.

I never expected him to do anything for me, I expected he wouldn't let things get so fucked up when it aint even my fault. I find no use in praying anymore, for my prayers are not answered. It seems everytime something very little that is good happens to me, something serious fucks up someone around me. I don't blame myself either, I just find it ironic. Is God not there to help? Or is there something I missed in all of my teachings.

God is not there to help. I don't think there is much to miss when it says "faith the size of a mustard seed can move a mountain". God just flat out doesn't exist. His own properties of which the bible composes a great number of times are contradicited in that same bible. Many Chrisitians, exspecially the firmer ones, love to take every single good thing that happens to them in their life, and say it is by the will of God. And then every bad thing is just a test. They have become too naive to accept that good things happen and bad things happen.

It is ridiculious for a human to expect help from a god; exspecially for free. You'll find that the lives of atheists and the 97% of the rest of the world are no different than the lives of Christians. So think about that. Don't you think that if Christians constantly prayed, asked for guidance, etc. that the number of deaths for Christians would be much lower? That the number of rapes, number of kidnappings, numbers of every misfortuante thing would be lower than that of atheists and the rest of the world? I believe that this statistic in itself shows not only that God helps Christians no more than anyone else, but that God does not exist.

There are now two things you may do. Accept the fact that God does not exist, or lie to yourself and say this is just another trial that God is putting you through, probaly to make you more faithfull.

The only kinds of stories i hear about these "Tests of faith" are those where after a period of hardship everything suddenly gets better. But what about those people who don't get better? I mean, I myself know that my world aint gonna get better unless *I* work for it, and if things truly do get better, I sure as hell aint gonna give God any credit.

God is not there to help. I don't think there is much to miss when it says "faith the size of a mustard seed can move a mountain". God just flat out doesn't exist. His own properties of which the bible composes a great number of times are contradicited in that same bible. Many Chrisitians, exspecially the firmer ones, love to take every single good thing that happens to them in their life, and say it is by the will of God. And then every bad thing is just a test. They have become too naive to accept that good things happen and bad things happen.

It is ridiculious for a human to expect help from a god; exspecially for free. You'll find that the lives of atheists and the 97% of the rest of the world are no different than the lives of Christians. So think about that. Don't you think that if Christians constantly prayed, asked for guidance, etc. that the number of deaths for Christians would be much lower? That the number of rapes, number of kidnappings, numbers of every misfortuante thing would be lower than that of atheists and the rest of the world? I believe that this statistic in itself shows not only that God helps Christians no more than anyone else, but that God does not exist.

There are now two things you may do. Accept the fact that God does not exist, or lie to yourself and say this is just another trial that God is putting you through, probaly to make you more faithfull.
A lot of people claim to be touched by God during some point of their lives, in some instances converting non-believers to born agains. You're saying that every single one of them are wrong and are completely delusional?

The only kinds of stories i hear about these "Tests of faith" are those where after a period of hardship everything suddenly gets better. But what about those people who don't get better? I mean, I myself know that my world aint gonna get better unless *I* work for it, and if things truly do get better, I sure as hell aint gonna give God any credit.

The Christian answer is that "things will always get better in the end" or "things won't get better until you put your faith into God".

Yes, thumby. Maybe not completely delusional, but I know that whatever they felt sure as hell isn't God. I know God doesn't exist just as surely as I know that square circles don't exist. For example, I think Asuka is a perfect example for an unloving act that an all-loving God is doing (or lack thereof).

The Christian answer is that "things will always get better in the end" or "things won't get better until you put your faith into God".

Yes, thumby. Maybe not completely delusional, but I know that whatever they felt sure as hell isn't God. I know God doesn't exist just as surely as I know that square circles don't exist. For example, I think Asuka is a perfect example for an unloving act that an all-loving God is doing (or lack thereof).
You seem to "know" a lot. You don't know anything. You don't know that there is no God. That's ignorant. Just like you say it's ignorant when Christians insist there is one

Depends. If you say I don't know that there is or isn't a god, then you are correct. But if you say I don't know that there is or isn't God, then you are incorrect. I know that the biblical God does not exist, because his properties are contradictory. It only takes one unloving act from God to prove he does not exist. It only takes one thing that he can't do to show he does not exist. I believe if you took the time to read the bible a bit more, you'd realize this a bit more. There are some things that are abhorrant to God. The bible even says this.

Depends. If you say I don't know that there is or isn't a god, then you are correct. But if you say I don't know that there is or isn't God, then you are incorrect. I know that the biblical God does not exist, because his properties are contradictory. It only takes one unloving act from God to prove he does not exist. It only takes one thing that he can't do to show he does not exist. I believe if you took the time to read the bible a bit more, you'd realize this a bit more. There are some things that are abhorrant to God. The bible even says this.
Unloving act?
I have read the Bible, so please >_>

How does God thinking things are an abomination prove anything?

Ping pong match. Set 1:

Agnostic-Atheist Vs. Christians.

No one is forcing you to read.

Yes, thumby. Maybe not completely delusional, but I know that whatever they felt sure as hell isn't God. I know God doesn't exist just as surely as I know that square circles don't exist. For example, I think Asuka is a perfect example for an unloving act that an all-loving God is doing (or lack thereof).
Yes well until you can prove to me how the universe came to be, I will have to disagree with you.

Yes well until you can prove to me how the universe came to be, I will have to disagree with you.

Well until you can prove God made the universe, I will have to disagree with you.

Unloving act?
I have read the Bible, so please >_>

How does God thinking things are an abomination prove anything?

I'm not saying you are accusing me of this, Darksage, so please don't mistake it. I love the terrible irony as many Christians will hypocritically call me close minded. Apparently, they think that because I won't believe or accept anything they say, I am close minded. The irony of this is that the Christians I debate with refuse to even consider what I say. You see, they are already dismissing whatever logic I offer them before they even take the time to consider it.

So let me ask you a question, Darksage, and I want you to be completely honest. Not partially honest, but completely honest. Now I shall forewarn you here. To be honest, you will actually have to consider what I am saying to you. This may lead to you actually being forced to think on your own, so watch out! Ready?

A.) Do you think slavery is a loving act? Yes or no.

B.) Do you think it is an acceptable practice?

C.) If two of your best friends were fighting, and one was about to kill or seriously injure the other, would it be loving for you to stand back and do nothign?

D.) Does the Lord, your god, love something that is abhorrant to him? (I know it sounds silly.)

E.) Do you intentionally hurt, be it mentally or physically, someone you love or care about if you don't need to?

F.) Do you feel killing children is loving?

G.) This is an important one. Do you believe that God is all-loving?

We can start off with those questions. I would appreciate it if you answered them as though you never believed in a god, unless the question specifically asked something in regards to your god. Thanks!

Yes well until you can prove to me how the universe came to be, I will have to disagree with you.

I think it is so stupid when people say this. 500 years ago the theory of gravity wasnt around and/or was very unpopular. Did that mean gravtity and Isaac's theories of it didnt exsist in everyones life untill he made those theories? Did people float around before Isaac was born? Before modern science was the sun and the 9(10..) planets of our solar system gods? NO!

The universe is as is, so it has to be created one time, one way. To say that because science hasnt found the way it was created doesnt mean that God made it. And for all we know we have. You can say that the Big
Bang theory has loop holes and is to fishy, but as I say to my older brother, I trust those who went to collage and grad. school to study these things over you. And for nonexsistant gods sake the Bible is just as, if not more, fishy and contracting then the Big Bang theory.

The Bible is so crazy and on top of that people take it for FACT.


fact (făkt)
n.

1. Knowledge or information based on real occurrences: an account based on fact; a blur of fact and fancy.
2.
1. Something demonstrated to exist or known to have existed: Genetic engineering is now a fact. That Chaucer was a real person is an undisputed fact.
2. A real occurrence; an event: had to prove the facts of the case.
3. Something believed to be true or real: a document laced with mistaken facts.
3. A thing that has been done, especially a crime: an accessory before the fact.
4. Law. The aspect of a case at law comprising events determined by evidence: The jury made a finding of fact.

At least the Big Bang is called what it is. It is a THEORY!


the·o·ry (thē'ə-rē, thîr'ē)
n., pl. -ries.

1. A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena.
2. The branch of a science or art consisting of its explanatory statements, accepted principles, and methods of analysis, as opposed to practice: a fine musician who had never studied theory.
3. A set of theorems that constitute a systematic view of a branch of mathematics.
4. Abstract reasoning; speculation: a decision based on experience rather than theory.
5. A belief or principle that guides action or assists comprehension or judgment: staked out the house on the theory that criminals usually return to the scene of the crime.
6. An assumption based on limited information or knowledge; a conjecture.

And according to Dan Brown, the Big Bang Theory was created by a Catholic! (I can't comment on whether this is credible or not... it is presented as fact in one of his fictional books, Angels and Demons)

Find out weither George Gamow was a Christian or not then.

He created the theory

I'm not saying you are accusing me of this, Darksage, so please don't mistake it. I love the terrible irony as many Christians will hypocritically call me close minded. Apparently, they think that because I won't believe or accept anything they say, I am close minded. The irony of this is that the Christians I debate with refuse to even consider what I say. You see, they are already dismissing whatever logic I offer them before they even take the time to consider it.

So let me ask you a question, Darksage, and I want you to be completely honest. Not partially honest, but completely honest. Now I shall forewarn you here. To be honest, you will actually have to consider what I am saying to you. This may lead to you actually being forced to think on your own, so watch out! Ready?

A.) Do you think slavery is a loving act? Yes or no.

B.) Do you think it is an acceptable practice?

C.) If two of your best friends were fighting, and one was about to kill or seriously injure the other, would it be loving for you to stand back and do nothign?

D.) Does the Lord, your god, love something that is abhorrant to him? (I know it sounds silly.)

E.) Do you intentionally hurt, be it mentally or physically, someone you love or care about if you don't need to?

F.) Do you feel killing children is loving?

G.) This is an important one. Do you believe that God is all-loving?

We can start off with those questions. I would appreciate it if you answered them as though you never believed in a god, unless the question specifically asked something in regards to your god. Thanks!
I don't really appreciate your sarcasm as to the assumption that I cannot think on my own. You know absolutely nothing of my journey of faith. I wasn't "born with a bible in my mouth" like so many are (lol). No one in my family is religious at all. it is something I investigated and picked up on my own, because it made sense to me.

A.) The slavery discussed in the Bible is not the kind of slavery that existed in the south of the United States. In the original Hebrew the word for "slave" is also the same word for "debtor". Becoming a slave is paying off your debt, like an indentured servant.

B.) Of course not. refer to A

C.) Would it be loving to stand back? Sure, it you could look at it both ways. Could you really call them best friends if they were trying to kill each other? (could you show me where this is in the bible too, cause I'm pretty sure you got the example from there)

D.) No, that's not silly, it's contradictiory, you cant love something you hate. God id not all-loving in the sense that he loves every single piece of matter in existence; He is all-loving in the sense that he loves all human beings. "Hate the sin, Love the sinner"

E.) Sometimes when I want them to realize something and I know they're too thick-headed or stubborn to realize it if I simply told them, yeah I do.

F.) Depends what the cause is

G.) He loves all people. Thats what "all-loving" means in this case. He even said it (John 15:12 - My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.).

Smart answer. (not being sarcastic).

While its true that many act that are bad are going on in the world. God couldnt show his love if there werent bad. And it says in the Quraan something that would explain it....

Translation but i forgot which surah its in ill put that up later:

If a person commits a sin he will be punished for that sin. If you look upoon the sinner and think what he has done is wrong you will not be punished. However if you look upon the sinner and have the power to stop it and dont. Then surely you will be punished and so will the people around you who do not stop it.

Sadly, your posts only shows even more that you have not properly read the bible, Darksage.

Where shall we start?

A.) The slavery discussed in the bible is indeed the kind of slavery we talk about. Do you recall the Hebrews offer of peace?

"When you draw near to a town to fight against it, offer it terms of peace. If it accepts your terms of peace and surrenders to you, then all the people in it shall serve you at forced labor. If it does not submit to you peacefully, but makes war against you, then you shall besiege it; and when the Lord your God gives it into your hand, you shall put all its males to the sword." ~Deuteronomy 20: 10-13

Not only do these people not have a debt, but the bible explicitly states it as forced labor. This is slavery, my friend. Demanded by your god, no less.

B.) Then what part of this is loving, as commanded by god? As your explanation no longer supports your view for A, surely you must now agree that God just committed an unloving act, by making such an offer of "peace" (the terms being that they become slaves or die.)

C.) Both ways? In what way is it loving to your best friends, both of whom are about to kill each other, to let them kill each other when the problem can be resolved without taking a life?

D.) God does not love all humans. In fact, there have been and will be people that God hates. Please read the bible a bit more before you make such a statement.

E.) Would you please provide ANY example of how it's loving to hurt someone you don't need?

F.) Mind naming a cause that makes it loving?

G.) This doesn't make God all-loving. Only shows that he loves some people.

A) Would you surrender your city if your army was big enough to win? Of course not. You'd surrender because you know you'd lose but would rather live. Iit is very loving to say "We can kill you right here and now, but we will give you the chance to spare yourselves and surrender." How is that not loving? Also, line 18 of the same passage you cited:
"Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the LORD your God. "

B pretty much follows A so yea

C.) How can best friends wish to kill each other? And what problem are we talking about?

D.) The Bible states very clearly that we are born with God's love. Love cannot always be felt. Take your parents for example, I'm sure you get the idea

E.) Hurt someone you dont need? Or need to? Either way many lessons can only be learned if they are lived. "No pain, no gain"

F.)0 Depends why they were killed, as I said

G.) "For God so loved the world..." John 3:16. Does too

A.) Spare their lives? I hardly see it as sparing if you have to live your life as a slave. What kind of life is it to live if your in forced labor? And among your enemies, people who wish to kill or seperate you from your wife, children, etc.? If you can't see how threatening to kill someone unless they become your slave is wrong, then I truly pity you. As for your other comment, I'll take a quote from another atheist:

And another thing to note in the Deuteronomy account: the reason God gives for His order of the killings is that He is afraid that the Israelites will learn the evil ways of their enemies. Whatever happened to free will? I thought God's people were expected--required--to resist the influence of evil. Here, God doesn't trust His people to resist evil and finds that a good reason to exterminate people!

Long story short, you're attempting to say that not only do the Israelites have no ability to resist the teachings of these "enemies", but because they hold the potential to influence the Israelites to sin against God (even though they already do sin against God; some of them) they all must become slaves or die. It's like me going to a church with a gun and saying "you're all trying to corrupt my thinking, be my slaves or die". That doesn't justify shit.

C.) Apparently you aren't reading closely enough. I didn't say best friends, I said YOUR best friends. Just because both of these people are friends with you, does not mean they are with each other.

D.) Leviticus 20:23 "You shall not follow the practices of the nation that I am driving out before you. Because they did all these things, I abhorred them."

Hosea 9:15 "Every evil of theirs began at Gil'gal; there I came to hate them. Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive them out of my house. I will love them no more; all their officials are rebels."

Proverbs 6:16-19 "There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that hurry to run to evil, a lying witness who testifies falsely, and one who sows discord in a family."

Psalm 5:5-6 "The boastful will not stand before your eyes; you hate all evildoers. You destroy those who speak lies; the Lord abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful."

Sorry, pal. But it looks like you're going to have to toss the "hate the sin, love the sinner" bullshit out the window.

E.) Hurt someone you don't need to. Some lessons simply don't need to be learned. Some lessons can be learned without pain. That's bullshit, about me needing to live a lesson to learn it. Would you like a good example? I know killing people I don't like is a bad idea. Why? Because if I get caught, I will go to jail. I know jail is bad. Why? Because I don't like anal sex, nor do I like be trapped in a room for hours. Yet how do I know this if I have never lived such events?

F.) Depends? Okay, how about this. Is it okay to kill children and/or babies for the evils of their parents? Is that loving?

G.) See D.

I think it is so stupid when people say this. 500 years ago the theory of gravity wasnt around and/or was very unpopular. Did that mean gravtity and Isaac's theories of it didnt exsist in everyones life untill he made those theories? Did people float around before Isaac was born? Before modern science was the sun and the 9(10..) planets of our solar system gods? NO!

The universe is as is, so it has to be created one time, one way. To say that because science hasnt found the way it was created doesnt mean that God made it. And for all we know we have. You can say that the Big
Bang theory has loop holes and is to fishy, but as I say to my older brother, I trust those who went to collage and grad. school to study these things over you. And for nonexsistant gods sake the Bible is just as, if not more, fishy and contracting then the Big Bang theory.

The Bible is so crazy and on top of that people take it for FACT.



At least the Big Bang is called what it is. It is a THEORY!

:rolleyes: You try too hard. I never said I was Christian (I'm not), or believed in the Bible. I'm also cynical to what the Bible says. And if science can find out how we ever came to be, then good.

Have you ever heard of the rule of the Conservation of Matter? You seem to know your stuff, so I want you to explain how the world was created if this rule is true?

EDIT: Ohh, and no need for the definitions. I know what the words mean.

Though they both overlap... we do have another thread about how the universe started.

Hehe, I'm sorry but everytime I see angelic flame someone I nearly cry from laughing. Your just so straight forward, and its all so true! You just summed him up with one statement:

"You're a fucking moron."


Ok, look. first of all, call me whatever the hell you want. Actually, you sound like a major kiss-up kissing Angelic's ass. Just make sure you get my gender right. I am a female, and I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't make kiss ass comments like that unless you know the person you're talking about. Ok, good. Get a life.


Yes, in fact it is. It instantly means that that person does not accept what other people are thinking. We have a word for that kind of people over here, they are called Jehovah's witnesses. Most people just call them annoying though.

And... You're saying you do? Don't crack on the Jenovah Witnesses either. I have Jenovah Witnesses in my family, and the stuff they believe you wouldn't even be able to process. Sure, they go door to door, but once they get a flat out no, then they pretty much leave you alone. It's a hard religion to be.


dont see him saying that his way is the only "smart and intelligent" way. You think that he is. He has already stated before that he respects people who believe in god as long as they respect him for not believing in it. Instead of accepting it you continue to agrue over how Angelic is stupid because he doesnt believe in god, and because of that you continue picking at it. Your obviously proving nothing but your own ignorance.

Dont fight fire with fire, and accept his disbelief in god.

Excuse me! Have you read some of the shit he's been saying. "All Christians are morons!" What is that? Have you read anything I've said. I don't think so. Shit, talk about turning the blind eye.


The Christian answer is that "things will always get better in the end" or "things won't get better until you put your faith into God".

Yes, thumby. Maybe not completely delusional, but I know that whatever they felt sure as hell isn't God. I know God doesn't exist just as surely as I know that square circles don't exist. For example, I think Asuka is a perfect example for an unloving act that an all-loving God is doing (or lack thereof).

You know what? That's another damn thing I can't stand. As soon as something bad happens to someone, they wanna blame God, or say He doesn't exist. Look in the Bible! Were those people's lives perfect? No! Nobody's life is perfect! I've had problems in my life that make me sick to think about! And yeah, sure, I got mad at God, asking why He'd let something like those things happen to me. But you know what, my problems(at least the BIG ones) are over. I wasn't stuck in that situation forever. I believe He helped me out.


Leviticus 20:23 "You shall not follow the practices of the nation that I am driving out before you. Because they did all these things, I abhorred them."

Hosea 9:15 "Every evil of theirs began at Gil'gal; there I came to hate them. Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive them out of my house. I will love them no more; all their officials are rebels."

Proverbs 6:16-19 "There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that hurry to run to evil, a lying witness who testifies falsely, and one who sows discord in a family."

Psalm 5:5-6 "The boastful will not stand before your eyes; you hate all evildoers. You destroy those who speak lies; the Lord abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful."

Sorry, pal. But it looks like you're going to have to toss the "hate the sin, love the sinner" bullshit out the window.


Darksage is still right. You're referring to stuff in the Old Testement, while, I'm sure he's refering to stuff in the New. The Old Testement was considered incomplete because people were not ready to truly believe in what God was trying to do. That's why divorce was allowed back then. but, when Jesus came, it was time for mankind to be saved.


Hurt someone you don't need to. Some lessons simply don't need to be learned. Some lessons can be learned without pain. That's bullshit, about me needing to live a lesson to learn it. Would you like a good example? I know killing people I don't like is a bad idea. Why? Because if I get caught, I will go to jail. I know jail is bad. Why? Because I don't like anal sex, nor do I like be trapped in a room for hours. Yet how do I know this if I have never lived such events?


Some people NEED to learn a lesson the hard way. Some are just too hard-headed to learn from examples. They wanna do what the wanna do. Are you denying this?



Depends? Okay, how about this. Is it okay to kill children and/or babies for the evils of their parents? Is that loving?


No, why would you kill children for the mistakes of their parents. That makes no sense. Are you trying to make it seem like that's what God did when Jesus was crucified? LMAO! Ok, fine, buit there's one problem with your example:
God had done nothing wrong. He hadn't done any evils. Jesus died for PEOPLE, not for God.


You try too hard. I never said I was Christian (I'm not), or believed in the Bible. I'm also cynical to what the Bible says. And if science can find out how we ever came to be, then good.


Haha! Dude, I was confused for the longest time on what you were! HAHA!Ok, then. No problem.
:heh:

You know what? That's another damn thing I can't stand. As soon as something bad happens to someone, they wanna blame God, or say He doesn't exist. Look in the Bible! Were those people's lives perfect? No! Nobody's life is perfect! I've had problems in my life that make me sick to think about! And yeah, sure, I got mad at God, asking why He'd let something like those things happen to me. But you know what, my problems(at least the BIG ones) are over. I wasn't stuck in that situation forever. I believe He helped me out.

I'll tell you what. I'll try and get people to stop blaming God for every bad thing that happens if you try and get people to stop claiming God makes every good thing happen. As in, if science doesn't explain a 'miracle', then the answer instantly becomes "GOD done it!!11!!!". Someone gets a new promotion out of the blue....."i7 was G0D!!!1111111".


Darksage is still right. You're referring to stuff in the Old Testement, while, I'm sure he's refering to stuff in the New. The Old Testement was considered incomplete because people were not ready to truly believe in what God was trying to do. That's why divorce was allowed back then. but, when Jesus came, it was time for mankind to be saved.

This is starting to fucking piss me off. I already took the bullshit when you said the OT laws don't apply any more. I don't give a fuck if it these lines were from the Old Testiment or the New Testiment. IT STILL SHOWS GOD DID SOMETHING UNLOVING. An all loving God is an all-loving God. No exceptions. No excuses. If he did not love a person at any particular point in time, then he is not loving. End of story.

I bet you if God demanded the Christians to rape and torture little children, you'd completely dismiss this as "it was in the Old Testiment, so it's okay". Seriously. Who gives a fuck? Whether it's in the New Testiment or the Old Testiment, God still had these laws and did these actions. Are you trying to claim that things become okay after a certain period of time? If I killed someone 10 years ago, does it make it moral now that we are so far in the future from then?

I'm sick of this bullshit. Quit trying to evade the fact that God commanded rape, and had children murdered. Old Testiment or new, he still did it. End of story.


Some people NEED to learn a lesson the hard way. Some are just too hard-headed to learn from examples. They wanna do what the wanna do. Are you denying this?

LEARN:
To gain knowledge, comprehension, or mastery of through experience or study.
To fix in the mind or memory; memorize: learned the speech in a few hours.

To acquire experience of or an ability or a skill in: learn tolerance; learned how to whistle.
To become aware: learned that it was best not to argue.
To become informed of; find out. See Synonyms at discover.
Nonstandard. To cause to acquire knowledge; teach.
Obsolete. To give information to.

What the fuck do you gain or acquire when you're dead? What does it matter if you even gain or acquire something when you're dead? That's right. It doesn't matter. Not a damn bit.


No, why would you kill children for the mistakes of their parents. That makes no sense. Are you trying to make it seem like that's what God did when Jesus was crucified? LMAO! Ok, fine, buit there's one problem with your example:
God had done nothing wrong. He hadn't done any evils. Jesus died for PEOPLE, not for God.

Exactly! EXACTLY! It makes no sense whatsoever. Yet he does so anyways:

Exodus 20:5 God Punishes Children For Their Parent's Deeds

"You shall not bown down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me,"

Exodus 22: 22-24 God Punishes More Children

"You shall not abuse any widow or orphan. If you do abuse them, when they cry out to me, I will surely heed their cry; my wrath will burn, and I will kill you with the sword, and your wives shall become widows and your children orphans."

Numbers 14:33 Children Forced to Wander Desert for 40 years

"And your children shall be shepherds in the wilderness for forty years, and shall suffer for your faithlessness, until the last of your dead bodies lies in the wilderness."

God blatantly says he punishes children for their parents sin. Oh, wait. Let's disregard that. Because it's in the Old Testiment, right?

Ok you guys are all making pretty good arguments. But i have to say something and now i understand why angelic said it.

We are all tlaking about the christian god. To be honest i never knew about this children thing. I dont think its in islam, unless its about palestine.

As to nothing gained in dying, if you believe in the afterlife you actually gain more then you would here.

And a bit less of the flaming people. (And watch it, Angelic is admin)

Numbers 14:33 Children Forced to Wander Desert for 40 years

"And your children shall be shepherds in the wilderness for forty years, and shall suffer for your faithlessness, until the last of your dead bodies lies in the wilderness."[/i]


That is the israelites punishment for worshipping the golden calf, because of that it is justified. That has nothing to do with modern day christians.

Justified? What are you talking about? The adults were the ones who were being irresponsible--not the children. How can you even hold the children responsible, when it was their parents who were teaching and leading them? God even said that the children were going to be punished for what the adults did. Whether or not this has anything at all to do with modern day Christians is completely irrelevant to the point I am making; that being God kills children for the sins of their parents.

Haven't you read the story already? You should know how it goes...

:rolleyes: You try too hard. I never said I was Christian (I'm not), or believed in the Bible. I'm also cynical to what the Bible says. And if science can find out how we ever came to be, then good.

Have you ever heard of the rule of the Conservation of Matter? You seem to know your stuff, so I want you to explain how the world was created if this rule is true?

EDIT: Ohh, and no need for the definitions. I know what the words mean.
The whole "anti-matter" particles thing, where they obliterate and stuff when they meet. I dont know much about it though.

And Nightmare I'll get to your posts in a bit I have to write my final essay =P

I'd be carefull of the verison of the Bible you quote from. You may want to try The New Revised Standard Verion (NRSV) or I believe it's called the Word version for a more modern translation of the bible.

For example, Numbers 14-33 says in the NRSV

"And your children shall be shepherds in the wilderness for fourty years..."

Just FYI

Yeah, the New International Version (NIV) I believe? Scholars say it should be the Bible everyone has as it clears up the original Hebrew that the King James Version and New american Version (and others) poorly translate

Haven't you read the story already? You should know how it goes...

I know how it goes. What's your point? In the end, the children got the shaft for the stupid mistakes the adults did; having been forced to wander the desert for 40 years. What is your point?

Edit: I love your signature, Asuka. Very nice! (Sorry to go a bit off topic there ;))

I'll tell you what. I'll try and get people to stop blaming God for every bad thing that happens if you try and get people to stop claiming God makes every good thing happen. As in, if science doesn't explain a 'miracle', then the answer instantly becomes "GOD done it!!11!!!". Someone gets a new promotion out of the blue....."i7 was G0D!!!1111111".



Um, that's because God IS, the reason why good things happen. God ALLOWS the bad to happen. Does He necessarily want them to happen, I don't think so, but whatever happens, I know it's for a reason. You're basically saying that everyone's life should be perfect, and if it isn't, then it's God's fault. Go ahead and say whatever you want about that. Now that I know you're just saying that to spite me, it's not nearly as annoying.


I already took the bullshit when you said the OT laws don't apply any more.

Look you hot head(not a flame at all. I actually like to call people that.:P I don't mean any offense at all, really), I never said the Old Testement doesn't apply anymore. I said it was INCOMPLETE.


I don't give a fuck if it these lines were from the Old Testiment or the New Testiment. IT STILL SHOWS GOD DID SOMETHING UNLOVING. An all loving God is an all-loving God. No exceptions. No excuses. If he did not love a person at any particular point in time, then he is not loving. End of story.


SO WHAT! What is your problem man? It's unloving to you, but He's all loving to me! You don't understand anything on Christianity. If you did, then you would understand that those idiots were in fact, idiots, and needed to be punished. Now, I'm not one for the death penalty, but they had to be very abomitable for God to say that they should die. If you do something bad, you deserve to be punished, end of story. In the times before Christ, everything was cut and dry. You fornicated, you died, you disobeyed your parents, you died, you did something wrong on the Sabbath, you died. Did God like it that way? I think not, because He sent His son, to relieve us of that awful way of life. You think you know the Bible so damn good? Why not actually studying Christianity for once. You obviously don't know much about the beliefs.


I bet you if God demanded the Christians to rape and torture little children, you'd completely dismiss this as "it was in the Old Testiment, so it's okay". Seriously. Who gives a fuck? Whether it's in the New Testiment or the Old Testiment, God still had these laws and did these actions. Are you trying to claim that things become okay after a certain period of time? If I killed someone 10 years ago, does it make it moral now that we are so far in the future from then?


Once again, you don't know what you're talking about....


I'm sick of this bullshit. Quit trying to evade the fact that God commanded rape, and had children murdered. Old Testiment or new, he still did it. End of story.


Give me a fucking scripture stating God commanded rape! Go ahead smart ass, find it, and bring it to me! Come on, I dare you. If you can, then I PROMISE you, that I will become think about becoming agnostic, I promise. I'll even sleep on it on the thought. If it's true, then what I believe about my God, is all a lie. The bible would be a lie, my faith would be garbage, and my life would be useless, waiting for Jesus to come again. In fact, fuck agnostic, I'll become athiest! So come on, where is it! If God really wanted such atrocities to happen, then I would be willing to throw aside my faith. Find it, because I know the God and Bible I know hates rape. Find it, I want you to. Give me a reason to doubt.


LEARN:
To gain knowledge, comprehension, or mastery of through experience or study.
To fix in the mind or memory; memorize: learned the speech in a few hours.

To acquire experience of or an ability or a skill in: learn tolerance; learned how to whistle.
To become aware: learned that it was best not to argue.
To become informed of; find out. See Synonyms at discover.
Nonstandard. To cause to acquire knowledge; teach.
Obsolete. To give information to.

What the fuck do you gain or acquire when you're dead? What does it matter if you even gain or acquire something when you're dead? That's right. It doesn't matter. Not a damn bit.


You didn't specify you were dead. You should clarify what you say.


God blatantly says he punishes children for their parents sin. Oh, wait. Let's disregard that. Because it's in the Old Testiment, right?

Yeah, and let's also disregard the fact that you don't know enough about Christianity to justify what you say. Right Oh! Hear Hear!

Easy to just use "you don't understand anything" as a set answer for everything, isn't it? Kind of shows us how ignorant you really are.

Easy to just use "you don't understand anything" as a set answer for everything, isn't it? Kind of shows us how ignorant you really are.
That can go both ways =P

Easy to just use "you don't understand anything" as a set answer for everything, isn't it? Kind of shows us how ignorant you really are.

The same can be said for you, dumbass, seeing as you're too damn narcisistic to accept that Christians can think for themselves, and that we don't need to hear your goddamn mouth for shit. I'm sure if you read about Christianity, you'd understand it too. I read it, AND take it in school, so I know what I'm talking about when I say that Christians do this and that. So you can just shut you mouth with that one.

It's funny, how the ignorant perceives everyone else as ignorant, isn't it, Angelic?

I know how it goes. What's your point? In the end, the children got the shaft for the stupid mistakes the adults did; having been forced to wander the desert for 40 years. What is your point?

Edit: I love your signature, Asuka. Very nice! (Sorry to go a bit off topic there ;))

My point is that some lives have to be sacrificed in order to save others. Only the original children fleeing egypt were the ones that died. Their children and their children's children still made it to their destination. True the punishment seems a bit harsh, but back then it was a disgrace to have a curse (for lack of better word choice) upon your families. After just been granted a free trip home they all decided to worship a Golden Calf. Would this also not anger you? If God had just decided to sit back and not punish him then no one would ever worship God.

Edit: Thanks? Not sure if that was sarcastic or not.

@ Kitsune: You best watch your mouth. In case you haven't noticed this is a debate upon RELIGION. Also, you ought to have some respect for Angelic. He has donated numerous hours for the sake of this forum. Not to mention this isn't even a forum intended for discussion past anime sheet music and composition. Have some respect, not to mention your a hypocrite. I believe your words were "we don't need to hear your goddamn mouth for shit." Isn't that in violation of the second (or third, depending on your religion) commandment? Now I'm not one to judge, but you best keep a watch on that mouth of yours.

Where does it say kill?

I'll tell you what. I'll try and get people to stop blaming God for every bad thing that happens if you try and get people to stop claiming God makes every good thing happen. As in, if science doesn't explain a 'miracle', then the answer instantly becomes "GOD done it!!11!!!". Someone gets a new promotion out of the blue....."i7 was G0D!!!1111111".



This is starting to fucking piss me off. I already took the bullshit when you said the OT laws don't apply any more. I don't give a fuck if it these lines were from the Old Testiment or the New Testiment. IT STILL SHOWS GOD DID SOMETHING UNLOVING. An all loving God is an all-loving God. No exceptions. No excuses. If he did not love a person at any particular point in time, then he is not loving. End of story.

I bet you if God demanded the Christians to rape and torture little children, you'd completely dismiss this as "it was in the Old Testiment, so it's okay". Seriously. Who gives a fuck? Whether it's in the New Testiment or the Old Testiment, God still had these laws and did these actions. Are you trying to claim that things become okay after a certain period of time? If I killed someone 10 years ago, does it make it moral now that we are so far in the future from then?

I'm sick of this bullshit. Quit trying to evade the fact that God commanded rape, and had children murdered. Old Testiment or new, he still did it. End of story.



LEARN:
To gain knowledge, comprehension, or mastery of through experience or study.
To fix in the mind or memory; memorize: learned the speech in a few hours.

To acquire experience of or an ability or a skill in: learn tolerance; learned how to whistle.
To become aware: learned that it was best not to argue.
To become informed of; find out. See Synonyms at discover.
Nonstandard. To cause to acquire knowledge; teach.
Obsolete. To give information to.

What the fuck do you gain or acquire when you're dead? What does it matter if you even gain or acquire something when you're dead? That's right. It doesn't matter. Not a damn bit.



Exactly! EXACTLY! It makes no sense whatsoever. Yet he does so anyways:

Exodus 20:5 God Punishes Children For Their Parent's Deeds

"You shall not bown down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me,"

Exodus 22: 22-24 God Punishes More Children

"You shall not abuse any widow or orphan. If you do abuse them, when they cry out to me, I will surely heed their cry; my wrath will burn, and I will kill you with the sword, and your wives shall become widows and your children orphans."

Numbers 14:33 Children Forced to Wander Desert for 40 years

"And your children shall be shepherds in the wilderness for forty years, and shall suffer for your faithlessness, until the last of your dead bodies lies in the wilderness."

God blatantly says he punishes children for their parents sin. Oh, wait. Let's disregard that. Because it's in the Old Testiment, right?
Actually Nightmare, about Numbers 14;33 :

Your children, the very ones that you said would be taken for plunder, I'll bring in to enjoy the land you rejected while your corpses will be rotting in the wilderness. These children of yours will live as shepherds in the wilderness for forty years, living with the fallout of your whoring unfaithfulness until the last of your generation lies a corpse in the wilderness. You scouted out the land for forty days; your punishment will be a year for each day, a forty-year sentence to serve for your sins—a long schooling in my displeasure.
It says the children will enjoy the land... so yea

Try this instead.

http://bible.oremus.org/?ql=16025252
It's NRSV. I don't ever remember seeing the word Whoring in the bible I've read.

EDIT: I wasn't trying to contradict your statment. Just provide yet another path on your point, Darksage.

Either way it says the children will enjoy the land, not be punished

The same can be said for you, dumbass, seeing as you're too damn narcisistic to accept that Christians can think for themselves, and that we don't need to hear your goddamn mouth for shit. I'm sure if you read about Christianity, you'd understand it too. I read it, AND take it in school, so I know what I'm talking about when I say that Christians do this and that. So you can just shut you mouth with that one.

It's funny, how the ignorant perceives everyone else as ignorant, isn't it, Angelic?

I'm a very dumb person indeed, that's why I'm at uni ^_^ no, not a lousy American one, mind you.

For your information, I used to be a Christian. I went to a Christian school and I read the bible when I was a kid. And guess what? I found that I didn't believe in God.

I had a discussion with the father of a friend of mine the other day. He says that the bible has very nice stories, which are probably based on truth, but not historical recordings. The Jews never had to cross the red sea for instance, they crossed a river somewhere in Iraq (forgot the name). Then hundreds of years later, when the story gets written down, it's being completely deformed to what's in the bible today. Mind you, this man is someone who knows his stuff about religion and philosophy, he spends a lot of time on this. He knows a lot of the bible and how it can be read. The litteral way of reading it is wrong, it's about the message behind it. Jesus didn't feed thousands of people with 5 pieces of bread and two fish. He probably fed a few hundred with a reasonably small amount of food. Then, to give that story more power in order to make the message clear that a lot of people can eat from a little food, they made it like it is in the bible. It's not about what the bible says, it's about what the writers meant to tell when they wrote it down. In that aspect, the bible is a great book. Too bad a lot of people take the litteral meaning for a fact, which is wrong.

The thing is the Bible (Gospels) were written within the generation of Jesus (50-70 years) which leaves no room for "legendary" information or changes based on oral tradition to entangle in it. there's no oral tradition if it's only one generation, as oral tradition is passing the sotires down from generation to generation.

Ok, so I was wondering why Jesus was European and not any other race? If he was the Son of God, why would he be purely a Caucasian? Isn't God racist that way? If He was meant to be fair, then surely Jesus would have been of mixed race?


lol

never thought about it that way...

are the jews the holy people?

Jesus was from the Middle East. He looked Arab. Artists just depicted him as white because they were from white cultures


And the Jews used to be the "holy people". Now everybody can be a holy person. Isreal is still the holy land though

@an-kun

did you get that from saved! ? if so, funny movie, if not, funny quote yourself

The thing is the Bible (Gospels) were written within the generation of Jesus (50-70 years) which leaves no room for "legendary" information or changes based on oral tradition to entangle in it. there's no oral tradition if it's only one generation, as oral tradition is passing the sotires down from generation to generation.

I mean the old testament, really. The stories about Jesus were just blown up to make the message they held clearer.

@ Kitsune: You best watch your mouth. In case you haven't noticed this is a debate upon RELIGION.

Excuse you! didn't you just call ME a fucking moron a couple minutes ago? YOU watch YOUR damn mouth. You went off subject with that too. You can shove that up your ass buddy.


Also, you ought to have some respect for Angelic. He has donated numerous hours for the sake of this forum. Not to mention this isn't even a forum intended for discussion past anime sheet music and composition.

Yeah, sure, ok, so I should respect him flaming me and calling me a moron, right? I should respect him bashing my faith? Exactly, shut your damn mouth.


Have some respect, not to mention your a hypocrite. I believe your words were "we don't need to hear your goddamn mouth for shit." Isn't that in violation of the second (or third, depending on your religion) commandment? Now I'm not one to judge, but you best keep a watch on that mouth of yours.

Excuse me, but, I'll say whatever the hell I want to. If I wanna say godamn, then I'll say it. People commit sins all the time, that doesn't make them a hypocrite. Now, you watch your mouth, too, because I believe you kiss-ass self flamed me a while back. Don't tell me what to do, and you're doing the same shit. Thank you very much and good night.


For your information, I used to be a Christian. I went to a Christian school and I read the bible when I was a kid. And guess what? I found that I didn't believe in God.



And see, whatever cause you to lose your faith, I'm deeply sorry it happened. I can't imagine how horrible you must have felt at the time, like you've been fooled all your life. But, I haven't come across anything that would change me(yet, looks like Nightmare's claims were just hot air), so that's why I still believe. The God that I know, I will believe in.


The litteral way of reading it is wrong, it's about the message behind it.

Yeah, that I can agree with. There's some stuff I believe actually happened(Like the New Testement, I think is very historically accurate), but yeah, man did write the book, so it can't be completely accurate.

Um, that's because God IS, the reason why good things happen. God ALLOWS the bad to happen. Does He necessarily want them to happen, I don't think so, but whatever happens, I know it's for a reason. You're basically saying that everyone's life should be perfect, and if it isn't, then it's God's fault. Go ahead and say whatever you want about that. Now that I know you're just saying that to spite me, it's not nearly as annoying.

This is the kind of Christian attitude that really can piss me off. Christians are always the first to jump on any unusual recovery or abnormal and coincental positive happening, and claim it happened in the name of their God. Factually, you can say that God makes good things happen and let's bad things happen. Um, no. Doesn't work like that. Either he lets good and bad things happen, or he makes good and bad things happen. You can't pick and choose; either he lets or he makes. Why is this, you ask? Because you have no more reason to assume that he makes things happen then you do to assume that he lets them happen.


Look you hot head(not a flame at all. I actually like to call people that.:P I don't mean any offense at all, really), I never said the Old Testement doesn't apply anymore. I said it was INCOMPLETE.

Do the laws in the Old Testiment apply anymore, yes or no?


SO WHAT! What is your problem man? It's unloving to you, but He's all loving to me!

I'm pretty sure that people like Darksage assumes that God is all-loving in the sense of everybody, not just you. I have found verses that show this is untrue, and that he is not loving to everybody. Don't you try and twist things around. It's "all-loving" in the sense that he is, well, loving of all.


You don't understand anything on Christianity. If you did, then you would understand that those idiots were in fact, idiots, and needed to be punished.

I can go on arguements like this all day. "You don't understand Christianity". "Yes I do, it's you who doesn't understand." "No, you're wrong". "You're wrong". It can last all day long. The bible is free for open interpretation. You can say my interpretation is wrong no more than you can say yours is right.


Now, I'm not one for the death penalty, but they had to be very abomitable for God to say that they should die. If you do something bad, you deserve to be punished, end of story. In the times before Christ, everything was cut and dry. You fornicated, you died, you disobeyed your parents, you died, you did something wrong on the Sabbath, you died. Did God like it that way? I think not, because He sent His son, to relieve us of that awful way of life. You think you know the Bible so damn good? Why not actually studying Christianity for once. You obviously don't know much about the beliefs.

Why? If God did not like the laws, why the fuck was he so stupid to set them up like that in the first place? Hell, I know some elementary kids who could figure that out. Is your God no smarter than an elementary kid? I hardly see how disobeying your parents is an abominable sin towards god worthy of death. But I realize that as a Christian, you think that such horrid actions easily merits death.

There are dozens of different sects in Christianity. Don't give me this bullshit that I don't know much about the beliefs, when the beliefs are based on interpretation and as it is are extremely varied. My interpretation is just as valid as yours.


Give me a fucking scripture stating God commanded rape! Go ahead smart ass, find it, and bring it to me! Come on, I dare you. If you can, then I PROMISE you, that I will become think about becoming agnostic, I promise. I'll even sleep on it on the thought. If it's true, then what I believe about my God, is all a lie. The bible would be a lie, my faith would be garbage, and my life would be useless, waiting for Jesus to come again. In fact, fuck agnostic, I'll become athiest! So come on, where is it! If God really wanted such atrocities to happen, then I would be willing to throw aside my faith. Find it, because I know the God and Bible I know hates rape. Find it, I want you to. Give me a reason to doubt.

Very well. Here's some for you (copied this time directly from evilbible.com, rather than my own bible):

6) David's Punishment - Polygamy, Rape, Baby Killing, and God's "Forgiveness" (2 Samuel 12:11-14 NAB)



Thus says the Lord: 'I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.'

Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord." Nathan answered David: "The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die." [The child dies seven days later.]



This has got to be one of the sickest quotes of the Bible. God himself brings the completely innocent rape victims to the rapist. What kind of pathetic loser would do something so evil? And then he kills a child! This is sick, really sick!



7) Rape of Female Captives (Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)



"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."



Yeah, and let's also disregard the fact that you don't know enough about Christianity to justify what you say. Right Oh! Hear Hear!

You don't have any possible idea of how much I know about Christianity. Don't even attempt to judge me. Just because you disagree with me doesn't make me unknowledgeable in this religion. Stop throwing in red herrings into this debate. It's not helping a damn thing.

Edit: And no, Asuka, it was not sarcasm.

Random observation:

The most bitter atheists seem to be ex-christians.

Awww, come on. Do I really seem that bitter?

yes.

Ditto -.-

Awww, come on. Do I really seem that bitter?

Well, bitter is a bit strong, to be honest.

Perhaps I should have said:

The most vehement critics of christian churches often turn out to be ex-members.

It's something I see on other boards, as well as in real life. It wasn't only (and not even predominantly) targeted at you. That this post came right under yours is a co-indince.

That said, I did think of you as well, when I made that post. That's because often you seem to fence at strawmen, rather than tackle the actual argument. There's very little of this in your last post. There is one example, though, and it's also the place where you get the most emotional:


Why? If God did not like the laws, why the fuck was he so stupid to set them up like that in the first place? Hell, I know some elementary kids who could figure that out. Is your God no smarter than an elementary kid? I hardly see how disobeying your parents is an abominable sin towards god worthy of death. But I realize that as a Christian, you think that such horrid actions easily merits death.

Here you're basically calling God stupid, and you're hang-up is something Kitsune-Rose never said.

You say: "If God did not like the laws, why the fuck was he so stupid to set them up like that in the first place?"

Kitsune-Rose said:


In the times before Christ, everything was cut and dry. You fornicated, you died, you disobeyed your parents, you died, you did something wrong on the Sabbath, you died. Did God like it that way? I think not, because He sent His son, to relieve us of that awful way of life.

This does not imply that God didn't like the laws; more that he didn't like the way the laws were implemented. Her key-argument (I think) was: If God liked the way the laws were implemented, why, then, did He bother sending his son with the message He had? Her interpretation of this was (I think) that God did not like the way humans implemented his laws.

You ignored both the drive of her argument (social-historical perspective) and the scriptural evidence she cited for it, and went off on a tangent that allowed you to call god "stupid" (even if only in an "if-then-scenario"). This is a straw-man argument, and it coincides with a flurry of rude language. This leads me to assume that certain arguments trigger something in you that prevents you from clear thinking, which the rest of your previous post shows you're capable of.

I don't mean to insult you at all; I'm just telling you how I react to your arguments. My advice would be to be careful when you catch yourself using words such as "stupid" or "why the fuck", and re-view what's actually on the page to see if you might not have misunderstood the point the person was making. (It's not a precise science; there will always be misunderstandings in arguments and I don't really pretend to understand posts better than you do; for example, you obviously have a much better knowledge of the actual words in the bible than I have. I'd just caution you to be more careful.)

I think Kitsune-Rose has lots of interesting arguments, and is open-minded enough to actually read posts. I always thought that she was a very good example of how you could have a meaningful conversation with Christians without having to fear the sledgehammer of blind faith. (Her posts deteriorated in quality lately, but it's no wonder considering the posts she had to face.)

Faith, ultimately, is irrational. You don't need faith for things which you can prove. If you're standing in the middle of the road and car comes at you at full speed, it doesn't take faith to dodge it.

I'm an atheist. I often wondered whether I might be an agnostic, because that's what logic compells me to be. But I found I'm an atheist, because deep down, when all is said and done, I believe in a completely random universe. This belief is no more rational than the belief in a divine order of some kind. This idea (divine order) is incomprehensible to me. I remember being surprised that my parents actually believe in God. I thought it was a game, like Santa (more like the "Christkindl" - baby Jesus dressed up as a baroque angel; I'm Austrian, it's my culture), something everyone knew was false but pretended to be true, because pretending was fun. (Or in adult terminology, I thought God was a metaphor.)

I hope I didn't offend you with this post, Nightmare. It's just that, since you asked, I'd explain my one-liner above.

I mean the old testament, really. The stories about Jesus were just blown up to make the message they held clearer.
The story about Jesus feeding five thousand people with five loaves of bread (and whatever else) is in the New Testament

However, Christians like you never seem to respect anything anyone else says.

What the hell? I'm an Athiest and kitsune-rose is my best friend and even though we have different religions, SHE RESPECTS ME.

She probably just goes off on you because ur an asshole. :lol:

This is the kind of Christian attitude that really can piss me off. Christians are always the first to jump on any unusual recovery or abnormal and coincental positive happening, and claim it happened in the name of their God.

And, what exactly is wrong with that? Christians believe that, you know. Why do you think that whenever something good happens, they say, "praise the Lord," or "Hallelujah!" There's nothing wrong, or ignorant about that.


Factually, you can say that God makes good things happen and let's bad things happen. Um, no. Doesn't work like that. Either he lets good and bad things happen, or he makes good and bad things happen. You can't pick and choose; either he lets or he makes. Why is this, you ask? Because you have no more reason to assume that he makes things happen then you do to assume that he lets them happen.


Have you read the Gospel of Job? Clearly, He LET those bad things happen to Job. God makes good things happen, and He LETS bad things happen. If you want to be specific, Satan allots for most of the evil in this world. What sin is commited by a human, is caused by free will. God LET it happen, because He didn't stop it. Sickness, nobody can help(unless you're talking about smoking, etc.). God LETS people get sick, He doesn't make you get sick.


Do the laws in the Old Testiment apply anymore, yes or no?


The Old Laws have been completed.


I'm pretty sure that people like Darksage assumes that God is all-loving in the sense of everybody, not just you. I have found verses that show this is untrue, and that he is not loving to everybody. Don't you try and twist things around. It's "all-loving" in the sense that he is, well, loving of all.


And you don't seem to understand that people who do evil deeds need to be punished! Some things that may seem un-loving to you, may not be un-loviong at all.


The bible is free for open interpretation. You can say my interpretation is wrong no more than you can say yours is right.


So, you're saying someone who does something wrong, doesn't need punishment?



Why? If God did not like the laws, why the fuck was he so stupid to set them up like that in the first place? Hell, I know some elementary kids who could figure that out. Is your God no smarter than an elementary kid? I hardly see how disobeying your parents is an abominable sin towards god worthy of death. But I realize that as a Christian, you think that such horrid actions easily merits death.


.....................
That depends on how you think. Human kind was not ready for salvation. Imagine, as soon as the Israelites thought that Moses was gone, they up and began worshipping a golden calf. A golden calf, for crying out loud! Plus, Adam and Eve sinned in the garden. But, note, that when they were casted out, God said that He would send someone to re-open the gates of Heaven to them, through a woman(Mary) with her son(Jesus). I don't remember the exact verse, but I believe it's in Genesis. So, it was a punishment, the way things were the way they were, and that humans weren't ready to be saved.


Very well. Here's some for you (copied this time directly from evilbible.com, rather than my own bible):

6) David's Punishment - Polygamy, Rape, Baby Killing, and God's "Forgiveness" (2 Samuel 12:11-14 NA



Thus says the Lord: 'I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.'

Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord." Nathan answered David: "The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die." [The child dies seven days later.]



This has got to be one of the sickest quotes of the Bible. God himself brings the completely innocent rape victims to the rapist. What kind of pathetic loser would do something so evil? And then he kills a child! This is sick, really sick!




LMFAO!!!!!!! HAHHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! Ok, here's the thing:
I'm sure you know that's the punishment David received for his sins. Now, that has nothing to do with rape. It says, that his wives would be given to those men. that doesn't mean rape, my friend. If anything, that points to adultery, why?
Because it happened in broad daylight, before his eyes.
That means he would catch them in some sexual act. Do you think he would be angry at his wife for a rape? No, he'd be mad at the man.
Also:
The act would be made public: The act, would be fornication. Adultery, was heinous back then. If it got out, it brought disgrace to the entire family, including King David. He would have to suffer, knowing that people were calling his family permiscuous(sp?)


"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."


This has to do with the Jewish customs of wanting a wife. This has nothing to do with rape. If you were a captive woman, a man could take you to his house, and you could be his wife, if you did those things listed above. That is Jewish custom. Notice, it says "Before she may live there." It has to do with marriage.

Apparently, you got your info from a silly source. Face it, God didn't command rape. My God would never do such a thing. My faith is still intact. I hope I cleared up anything you didn't understand, or, apparently, misunderstood.


You don't have any possible idea of how much I know about Christianity.

Um, look at all your posts, and my correctsions I've made on what you've said. Yes, I rest my case.


Don't even attempt to judge me.

You've judged me since the beginning. Have you even stopped to think about the person reading your posts? How I might feel, seeing you say those mean things about Christians?


Stop throwing in red herrings into this debate. It's not helping a damn thing.


ME? RED HERRINGS? Um, what was your whole "rape" thing a minute ago? Yeah, I thought so.


Her key-argument (I think) was: If God liked the way the laws were implemented, why, then, did He bother sending his son with the message He had? Her interpretation of this was (I think) that God did not like the way humans implemented his laws.


Yes, you understood completely what I meant to say. I'm glad. Sometimes I wonder if I explain myself well enough. Glad to know I'm at least semi-clear.:heh:


I think Kitsune-Rose has lots of interesting arguments, and is open-minded enough to actually read posts. I always thought that she was a very good example of how you could have a meaningful conversation with Christians without having to fear the sledgehammer of blind faith.

Why thank you sir! Wow, a compliment, from an athiest at that! I feel so special!(Not A BIT of sarcasm).


(Her posts deteriorated in quality lately, but it's no wonder considering the posts she had to face.)


Heheh, yeah. I'm very sorry about that too. I'm not normally so confrontational. But, thanks to a friend of mine, I'm now back to my old self. I really should have picked up the Bible myself earlier and read Psalms, but I was being a hot head. So yeah, anybody I insulted, I'm deeply sorry.

Very Late but Anime Jenni, about your problem. Maybe this experience will help you in later life.I want to watch your future;) .

Oh and the problem with the bible is that its been changed. How many versions are there.? It lessens its credibility.

the holy version, uncensored, for kids and many other versions.

The Quraan is the only one that aint been changed but it dont mean that parts of the bible arent true. Just because we havent seen any miracles doesnt mean it cant happen.

Oh and the problem with the bible is that its been changed. How many versions are there.? It lessens its credibility.

um..the core structures of the bible(the old testament and the new testament)have not been changed.
just different translations

um..the core structures of the bible(the old testament and the new testament)have not been changed.
just different translations
Yeah, and the Apostles and such being uneducated doesn;t help much either.

Yeah, and the Apostles and such being uneducated doesn;t help much either.

have you ever read paul's letters? he uses logical arguments to show his points.

Paul is the excpetion. One of the only.

Paul is the excpetion. One of the only.

If you think you are counting JESUS in the uneducated category:
John 7:15(Jesus is teaching at the feast of tabernacles)[slightly paraphrased, not out of context]
The Jews were amazed and said "How did this man get such learning...?"

Thats why I said Apostles.

I'm a very dumb person indeed, that's why I'm at uni ^_^ no, not a lousy American one, mind you.

MIT is a good school....:spam:

@thumby
I dont know a lot about creation. I wasnt trying to prove that the Big Bang theory was right or wrong, but that because you cant prove it now doesnt mean it is wrong and/or doesnt exist. This does go in favor of religion, but I have to day it. Be open minded.

Actualy, just be open minded to science :P

And, what exactly is wrong with that? Christians believe that, you know. Why do you think that whenever something good happens, they say, "praise the Lord," or "Hallelujah!" There's nothing wrong, or ignorant about that.

It's one thing to be thankfull that it happened. But to go so far as to try and show that their God is real by assuming it was an action of God is just plain ignorant.


Have you read the Gospel of Job? Clearly, He LET those bad things happen to Job. God makes good things happen, and He LETS bad things happen. If you want to be specific, Satan allots for most of the evil in this world. What sin is commited by a human, is caused by free will. God LET it happen, because He didn't stop it. Sickness, nobody can help(unless you're talking about smoking, etc.). God LETS people get sick, He doesn't make you get sick.

Perhaps I should clarify a bit more. What applies to one, must apply to other. So then, for him to make good things and let bad things happen, he'd have to make bad things happen and let good things happen as well.


The Old Laws have been completed.

Good. Now answer the fucking question.


And you don't seem to understand that people who do evil deeds need to be punished! Some things that may seem un-loving to you, may not be un-loviong at all.

I understand that people who do evil deeds need to be punished. But that doesn't mean they can't be loved. Yet God explicitly stated that he did not lovee some people. Let's just focus on the verses that I provided of which he said he does not love people. Can you not agree that if he was truly an all-loving God, he would not hate anyone? Otherwise, define all-loving.


So, you're saying someone who does something wrong, doesn't need punishment?

How the FUCK did you possibly deduce that? No, I'm saying don't you fucking tell me that my understanding of the bible is wrong, when you don't know for sure of it's validity.




....................
That depends on how you think. Human kind was not ready for salvation. Imagine, as soon as the Israelites thought that Moses was gone, they up and began worshipping a golden calf. A golden calf, for crying out loud! Plus, Adam and Eve sinned in the garden. But, note, that when they were casted out, God said that He would send someone to re-open the gates of Heaven to them, through a woman(Mary) with her son(Jesus). I don't remember the exact verse, but I believe it's in Genesis. So, it was a punishment, the way things were the way they were, and that humans weren't ready to be saved.

So in other words, God is punishing innocent humans for the mistake of Adam and Eve. And why would an all-loving God not desire to save a human?


LMFAO!!!!!!! HAHHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! Ok, here's the thing:
I'm sure you know that's the punishment David received for his sins. Now, that has nothing to do with rape. It says, that his wives would be given to those men. that doesn't mean rape, my friend. If anything, that points to adultery, why?
Because it happened in broad daylight, before his eyes.
That means he would catch them in some sexual act. Do you think he would be angry at his wife for a rape? No, he'd be mad at the man.
Also:
The act would be made public: The act, would be fornication. Adultery, was heinous back then. If it got out, it brought disgrace to the entire family, including King David. He would have to suffer, knowing that people were calling his family permiscuous(sp?)

LMFAO!!!!!111!!!11111!!!!1HAhahaAHAhAHaHAHA Ok, here's the thing:

Rape is sex against one's will. Are you saying that the women would want to have sex with those men? Or are you ready to admit that they were faithfull to their husband and would not want to have sex with those men.




This has to do with the Jewish customs of wanting a wife. This has nothing to do with rape. If you were a captive woman, a man could take you to his house, and you could be his wife, if you did those things listed above. That is Jewish custom. Notice, it says "Before she may live there." It has to do with marriage.

Just because it was a Jewish custom to marry a captive of war, doesn't automatically mean it isn't rape. Tell me--and be honest--would you seriously want to have sex with a man who just slaughtered your entire family? Sweetening things up with words like "marriage" doesn't change the fact that the women is being forced to have sex.


Apparently, you got your info from a silly source. Face it, God didn't command rape. My God would never do such a thing. My faith is still intact. I hope I cleared up anything you didn't understand, or, apparently, misunderstood.

I understand how hard it can be to accept that your God commanded rape. But you can tell yourself all day long that it was marriage not rape; but it is still rape.


Um, look at all your posts, and my correctsions I've made on what you've said. Yes, I rest my case.

Um, those are your opinions and beliefs that you consider your corrections. I could just as easily say that what I am writing as of now are corrections. Saying this is like me saying "because I have to correct you about God commanding rape; this shows your lack of understanding in regards to the bible". Sorry pal, it doesn't work like that.


You've judged me since the beginning. Have you even stopped to think about the person reading your posts? How I might feel, seeing you say those mean things about Christians?

I stopped for a second, but when you started defending rape and murder, well....things change.


ME? RED HERRINGS? Um, what was your whole "rape" thing a minute ago? Yeah, I thought so.

That's not a Red Herring. It is definatly pertinent to this discussion of an all-loving God. Your questioning of my understanding of the bible is, however, most certainly a red herring.

MIT is a good school....:spam:

@thumby
I dont know a lot about creation. I wasnt trying to prove that the Big Bang theory was right or wrong, but that because you cant prove it now doesnt mean it is wrong and/or doesnt exist. This does go in favor of religion, but I have to day it. Be open minded.

Actualy, just be open minded to science :P
Just like God. Just because you can't prove he/she's there doesn't mean he doesn't exist.

What, are you calling me close minded? Like I said before, I'm open to both aspects of science and religion. I think you're the one who's quickly dismissing Christians as stupid and ignorant. :rolleyes:

MIT is a good school....:spam:


A classmate of mine once went to an American school for a year and said it was a breeze. Dutch schools have 7 levels. American highschools are on level 3 out of 7. :spam:

Anyway, back on topic :P


This has to do with the Jewish customs of wanting a wife. This has nothing to do with rape. If you were a captive woman, a man could take you to his house, and you could be his wife, if you did those things listed above. That is Jewish custom. Notice, it says "Before she may live there." It has to do with marriage.

Apparently, you got your info from a silly source. Face it, God didn't command rape. My God would never do such a thing. My faith is still intact. I hope I cleared up anything you didn't understand, or, apparently, misunderstood.

Forced marriage sounds enough like rape to me...

Although of course, the bible was written by men so maybe it used to mean something else ("God said, if you find a woman you adore you may try and make her your wife if she's willing" or whatever) and they fucked it up pretty bad before they wrote it down. Wouldn't be a first.

It's one thing to be thankfull that it happened. But to go so far as to try and show that their God is real by assuming it was an action of God is just plain ignorant.


Well, whatever then. I'll believe what I want. And I believe that things that happen to me that are good, is because of God. Now drop it. You're not going to change my mind, and you're really not saying anything. Let's just leave that alone, ok? Thank you.


Perhaps I should clarify a bit more. What applies to one, must apply to other. So then, for him to make good things and let bad things happen, he'd have to make bad things happen and let good things happen as well.


The Gospel of Job, the Gospel of Job, the Gospel of Job. And, reread my statement, reread my statement, reread my statement......


Good. Now answer the fucking question.


I did.


I understand that people who do evil deeds need to be punished. But that doesn't mean they can't be loved.

Exactly. Love the sinner, hate the sin, which is what Christianity teaches us.


Yet God explicitly stated that he did not lovee some people. Let's just focus on the verses that I provided of which he said he does not love people. Can you not agree that if he was truly an all-loving God, he would not hate anyone? Otherwise, define all-loving.


*rolls eyes* I love your hang-up you have about that all-loving stuff. You're interpretting it the way you want to. I still think that God hated what those people did, not THEM. Why would God create something He would hate?


How the FUCK did you possibly deduce that? No, I'm saying don't you fucking tell me that my understanding of the bible is wrong, when you don't know for sure of it's validity.


HEY! Watch your language!(seriously, RELAX!). Calm yourself.... Ok, ready? One.... two.... threee... GO!
That's the way you sounded in your post, man. If it's not what you meant, then say it. Nobody flamed you abot it or anything. Geez....<_<


So in other words, God is punishing innocent humans for the mistake of Adam and Eve. And why would an all-loving God not desire to save a human?



Yes, you're right, and we're still being punished for it today. And we ARE saved. Jesus Christ saved us. Because of Him, people have a chance at eternal life in Heaven.


LMFAO!!!!!111!!!11111!!!!1HAhahaAHAhAHaHAHA Ok, here's the thing:

Rape is sex against one's will. Are you saying that the women would want to have sex with those men? Or are you ready to admit that they were faithfull to their husband and would not want to have sex with those men.




Did you read ANYTHING I just typed?! Obviously not! Look, for your enjoyment, I'll put it here. I'll even blod and underline the main points I said:

LMFAO!!!!!!! HAHHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! Ok, here's the thing:
I'm sure you know that's the punishment David received for his sins. Now, that has nothing to do with rape. It says, that his wives would be given to those men. that doesn't mean rape, my friend. If anything, that points to adultery, why?
Because it happened in broad daylight, before his eyes.
That means he would catch them in some sexual act. Do you think he would be angry at his wife for a rape? No, he'd be mad at the man.
Also:
The act would be made public: The act, would be fornication. Adultery, was heinous back then. If it got out, it brought disgrace to the entire family, including King David. He would have to suffer, knowing that people were calling his family permiscuous(sp?)

There you go. READ next time. If you want to argue my points, go ahead. At least know what you'll be arguing before you argue it.



Just because it was a Jewish custom to marry a captive of war, doesn't automatically mean it isn't rape.

Who said the woman was forced into the marriage. The woman had a right to refuse.



Tell me--and be honest--would you seriously want to have sex with a man who just slaughtered your entire family?

Me? Hell naw. But them...
Captives of war, were made into slaves, my friend. The women would be made into slaves, made to cook, clean, do the work no Jew wanted to do. If, a young man, good looking, asked them to marry them, she might say yes. For one, it would keep them from having to do all the work a slave would, and two, they get a good looking man who would love(yes love) and care for them. Now, that's the way it was back then. If you wanna argue with someone, go find a two-thousand year old woman from back then, made that choice to marry someone who killed her family, and argue with her about it.


I understand how hard it can be to accept that your God commanded rape.

Don;t give me that mama's- trying- to- consol -the- little- baby- because- he -can't -get -McDonalds shit. You still haven't convinced me that God commanded rape. I'm telling you, make a point that undoubtedly sticks out, and I WILL drop my beliefs, that I promise you. You haven't done that yet, because I've been able to back up my arguement with both scriptural, historical, and cultural proof. Nice try, really, but you can't prove something like that.


I could just as easily say that what I am writing as of now are corrections. Saying this is like me saying "because I have to correct you about God commanding rape; this shows your lack of understanding in regards to the bible".

MY lack of understand? At least I understand the background info regarding the Bible!
And, didn't you just bitch at me for saying your interpretation was wrong? Don't do that to me then. Let's not be hypocrites, ok Mr.?;)


That's not a Red Herring. It is definatly pertinent to this discussion of an all-loving God. Your questioning of my understanding of the bible is, however, most certainly a red herring.

Uh-Oh! Looks like you threw a red herring out there ages ago then pal! You questioned my interpretation awhile ago on the Bible, did you not? I think so! Yeah! Red herrings all around! Anybody up for a fish fry?^_^


I stopped for a second, but when you started defending rape and murder, well....things change.


*Pulls out Bible**reads Luke 6:27-36*

Ok, now I can respond to this insult without completely blowing up.
How dare you say something so... EVIL about me. I AM a Christian, sir. People in my immediate family was raped. I have dealt with grown men, trying to get me to have sex with them, to the point where I've had to call either my parents, or even the police.(Luckily, I, to this day, have never been raped, THANKS BE TO GOD!) I have been sexually harrassed SO many times, and you dare to accuse me of defending rape. You do NOT know the person on the other side of the screen you are talking to, and you will do well to NEVER say such things like that about them. I never once defended rape. I even TOLD you, that if God commanded rape, I would throw away my faith for good. I TOLD YOU THAT! And what, you dare to say I would defend it? You would DARE to say some shit like that, after I just told you that I would throw EVERYTHING I believe about God AWAY! Shame on you, SHAME ON YOU! You have no sense of courtesy. You have, by far, insulted me the greatest. I don't think anything Angelic has said has made me more INFURIATED. I ask you now, if you cannot refrain from saying such hurtful things, then you stop posting here. I don't mind you arguing my points, but you DO NOT question my character. That just shows how closed-minded you really are. So, please take my words into consideration.


Forced marriage sounds enough like rape to me...


Not forced, my friend. Please read my aboce statement, thank you.


Although of course, the bible was written by men so maybe it used to mean something else ("God said, if you find a woman you adore you may try and make her your wife if she's willing" or whatever) and they fucked it up pretty bad before they wrote it down. Wouldn't be a first.

That's a different way of looking at it. If I didn't know as much about the history as I do, that would be another good arguement to use.

Kitsune-rose...
B) :) ^_^ :bohaha: :thumb: :yes: :worship: :bigsmile: :coolio: :flower: :w00t: :coolies: gj gg ns n1
yeah! Great job! *hugs Kitsune-rose*

I did.

That's no a fucking yes or no answer. Try again. Are you incapable of answering yes or no? Do you not understand the question?


Exactly. Love the sinner, hate the sin, which is what Christianity teaches us.

Obviously not. Those verses clearly state that God hates the sinner.


*rolls eyes* I love your hang-up you have about that all-loving stuff. You're interpretting it the way you want to. I still think that God hated what those people did, not THEM. Why would God create something He would hate?

Exactly! Now you're starting to use your head. And that's exactly why Christianity is such bullshit. Now tell me which part of the following verses does it say God hates the sin?

Leviticus 20:23 "You shall not follow the practices of the nation that I am driving out before you. Because they did all these things, I abhorred them."

Hosea 9:15 "Every evil of theirs began at Gil'gal; there I came to hate them. Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive them out of my house. I will love them no more; all their officials are rebels."

Proverbs 6:16-19 "There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that hurry to run to evil, a lying witness who testifies falsely, and one who sows discord in a family."

Psalm 5:5-6 "The boastful will not stand before your eyes; you hate all evildoers. You destroy those who speak lies; the Lord abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful."

Do you understand the words "I abhorred them"? I'm getting pretty pissed off with you because this verse blatantly says that God abhors/hates people. Them is not referring to a sin, but clearly, explicitly, a group of people. There is no possible way to interpret "I abhorred them" as any other way but God abhorring people. If you deny this, you are being ignorant. If you are going to deny this, arguing with you is pointless. No matter what the bible says, you will twist it around to support your damn "perfect Christian view". This verse doesn't fucking say "I abhorred their sins, or their actions", it says "because they did this, I hate them. It's impossible for the bible to be even more explicit.


LMFAO!!!!!!! HAHHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! Ok, here's the thing:
I'm sure you know that's the punishment David received for his sins. Now, that has nothing to do with rape. It says, that his wives would be given to those men. that doesn't mean rape, my friend. If anything, that points to adultery, why?
Because it happened in broad daylight, before his eyes.
That means he would catch them in some sexual act. Do you think he would be angry at his wife for a rape? No, he'd be mad at the man.
Also:
The act would be made public: The act, would be fornication. Adultery, was heinous back then. If it got out, it brought disgrace to the entire family, including King David. He would have to suffer, knowing that people were calling his family permiscuous(sp?)

Just because she is being forced to do it in front of her husband doesn't make it adultery. Here, let me give you the definition:

a·dul·ter·y ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-dlt-r, -tr)
n. pl. a·dul·ter·ies
Voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a partner other than the lawful spouse.

This isn't voluntary. Nice try. Here's rape:

tr.v. raped, rap·ing, rapes
To force (another person) to submit to sex acts, especially sexual intercourse; commit rape on.
To seize and carry off by force.
To plunder or pillage.

This is clearly rape. The woman is given NO choice in this. Don't you think this is fucking ironic? Even if we assume it was adultery (which, as the woman is given no choice, so it's rape), where the fuck is the logic in this? David sins, so God is punishing him by making his wife sin (or, in reality, someone sin upon his wife.) How the fuck does that make sense? So let's see. First off, David commits a sin. So God punnishes his wife, by having her raped.

Rape is nothing more than sex against ones will; forcible sex. Whether it's in broad daylight, whether it's in the dark, be it in a room with noone watching, or with David and a thousand other people watching, if it's against the will of David's wife, it's rape. So hmmm.....let's think here, "let's punish someone for sinning by making another person sin".


There you go. READ next time. If you want to argue my points, go ahead. At least know what you'll be arguing before you argue it.

Don't try to make personal definitions. If you want to argue my points, then learn the difference between rape and adultery. I suggest you either look at the above definitions I provided, or visit www.dictionary.com for more information.


Who said the woman was forced into the marriage. The woman had a right to refuse.

Where did it say that?


Don;t give me that mama's- trying- to- consol -the- little- baby- because- he -can't -get -McDonalds shit. You still haven't convinced me that God commanded rape. I'm telling you, make a point that undoubtedly sticks out, and I WILL drop my beliefs, that I promise you. You haven't done that yet, because I've been able to back up my arguement with both scriptural, historical, and cultural proof. Nice try, really, but you can't prove something like that.

Bullshit-if anything, you've been proving my point all the more.

Ok, now I can respond to this insult without completely blowing up.
How dare you say something so... EVIL about me. I AM a Christian, sir. People in my immediate family was raped. I have dealt with grown men, trying to get me to have sex with them, to the point where I've had to call either my parents, or even the police.(Luckily, I, to this day, have never been raped, THANKS BE TO GOD!) I have been sexually harrassed SO many times, and you dare to accuse me of defending rape. You do NOT know the person on the other side of the screen you are talking to, and you will do well to NEVER say such things like that about them. I never once defended rape. I even TOLD you, that if God commanded rape, I would throw away my faith for good. I TOLD YOU THAT! And what, you dare to say I would defend it? You would DARE to say some shit like that, after I just told you that I would throw EVERYTHING I believe about God AWAY! Shame on you, SHAME ON YOU! You have no sense of courtesy. You have, by far, insulted me the greatest. I don't think anything Angelic has said has made me more INFURIATED. I ask you now, if you cannot refrain from saying such hurtful things, then you stop posting here. I don't mind you arguing my points, but you DO NOT question my character. That just shows how closed-minded you really are. So, please take my words into consideration.

Oh no! How shamefull of me! Let me take the time to pity you. That's right. There we go. In fact, let's just drop the arguement, since you've had such horrible experiences with rape. That's right. You win.

....seriously. I know your life no more than you know my own. But whether you like it or not, you are defending rape. I did not say you approve of rape. But you are most certainly defending it. I will not tolerate your appeal to pity fallacy. I am sorry that you have had a tough life, but don't try and assume that it's any darker than my own. Just because you have a tough life in regards to rape, doesn't mean you aren't defending it either.


.(Luckily, I, to this day, have never been raped, THANKS BE TO GOD!)

I can't believe that you are actually thanking your God for you not getting raped. Perhaps I should start thanking him for all the midegts hiding under my bed that don't stab me while I sleep. Or for the world ending tommorow. Oh, here's one: "THANK GOD I DIDN'T GET IN A CAR ACCIDENT TODAY!!!!" I find it sad that you actually have to thank your god for you not getting raped; when this god should be ensuring you don't anyways if he is all-loving.

hehe, I just got a weird thought. What if I prayed that tomorrow I would get raped. And lets say by chance, some guy pulls me into an alley and rapes me (I really dont want to get raped). Would this not be the will of God? And would God not be commanding rape?

[/QUOTE]
That's no a fucking yes or no answer. Try again. Are you incapable of answering yes or no? Do you not understand the question?


Um, do you not understand English? I answered you already.


Exactly! Now you're starting to use your head.

You know, that's starting to really get old. You need to respect me, as a human being, not as someone who's incapable of thinking.



I'm getting pretty pissed off with you because this verse blatantly says that God abhors/hates people.

Um, and why would I care if I'm pissing YOU off? I believe what I do. If I wanna believe that God hated the sin, them drop it. You're focussing on only one little thing. You have to look at it in it's entirety. So, drop it, ok. You're not proving anything to me.



Just because she is being forced to do it in front of her husband doesn't make it adultery.

ARRRGGHHHH!!! It's ADULTERY!!!!! Do I not speak English? Am I not being understood?


This is clearly rape. The woman is given NO choice in this.

You know what? That actually sounds like it would make sense. If God said she WOULD lie with another man, then I can see your point, however....
God is all seeing, and all knowing. He KNEW that the woman would commit adultery, and it would be a punishmetn for him to endure. God didn't MAKE anybody do anything. Someone commits adultery on their own accord. If God MADE someone commit adultery, it would be taking away their free will. Plus, it would make the act less sinful.


Don't try to make personal definitions. If you want to argue my points, then learn the difference between rape and adultery. I suggest you either look at the above definitions I provided, or visit www.dictionary.com for more information.



I haven't. I know what rape is. You insulting my intelligence is only making yourself seem really obnoxious.


Where did it say that?


It's culture.


Bullshit-if anything, you've been proving my point all the more.


How so? I don't understand how.


Oh no! How shamefull of me!

Yes, I'm glad you understand the evil of your ways.


Let me take the time to pity you. That's right. There we go. In fact, let's just drop the arguement, since you've had such horrible experiences with rape. That's right. You win.


I never wanted your pity. I had to get my point across without sinking down to your level(again) with insults.


But whether you like it or not, you are defending rape. I did not say you approve of rape. But you are most certainly defending it.

PFFFHHHSSSHHH!!! Whatever dude. I'm not even going to let it bother me anymore. You think I defend rape, go ahead. It's pointless to try to reason with you.


I will not tolerate your appeal to pity fallacy.

Wasn't trying to get pity. I was trying to make a point without completly biting your head off. I think I did.


I can't believe that you are actually thanking your God for you not getting raped.

Yup, and I thank Him for the ery air I breathe, and for all my friends, and for being alive at this very minute.


Perhaps I should start thanking him for all the midegts hiding under my bed that don't stab me while I sleep. Or for the world ending tommorow.

You probably should. Midgets can be very deadly.


I find it sad that you actually have to thank your god for you not getting raped;

Hey, guess what? I DON'T CARE! Keep that to yourself. t's not helping you.


hehe, I just got a weird thought. What if I prayed that tomorrow I would get raped. And lets say by chance, some guy pulls me into an alley and rapes me (I really dont want to get raped). Would this not be the will of God? And would God not be commanding rape?


If you really don't want it, then why would He grant it?


Kitsune-rose...
gj gg ns n1
yeah! Great job! *hugs Kitsune-rose*


Yay! Kitsune is loved! *hugs back*


I'd like to see this verse that says God is all-loving, and examples of where God says he hates people (I think you posted a few but I dont wanna read back the whole thread and I'm almost certain you have them handy)


Of course he has them handy. Any chance he can get to deconvert someone is like the Golden Moment.<_<


Let me ask it again, since apparently you do not understand that a yes or no questions demands a yes or no answer. Here we go!

Yes or no (implying, pick yes or pick no): Do you believe (this is the part you're going to answer yes or no to) that the OT laws still apply to this day. Yes or no (pick one or the other.) Hint: Saying "the Old laws have been completed" is not a yes or no answer.


LOL! What else can I say. THE OLD LAWS HAVE BEEN COMPLETED. So, what does that tell you?


How can I respect you as a human capable of thinking?

Easy. Just see me as a person.


You're faith has blinded you so much, that you will even blatantly deny verses that clearly show my point.

I haven't denied anything. You just haven't proven anything.


In other words, no matter how explicit a verse may be, you will always ignore it or dismiss it because of your blind faith.

*rolls eyes*
Oh look, another red herring. Pretty soon, it will be the feeding of the 5000 again.


If I were to show you a verse that said "God came in human form, raped 3 people, and slaughtered little children", you're faith would demand that you say something to this along the lines of "God did it because it was a just punishment" or "that verse didn't say it was God".

You don't know me, so don't judge me. You can just cut that out right now.


Where as a normal person would rationalize that a loving God would not rape 3 people and slaughter little children, you would defend this because you do not wish to believe that your God would do such a thing, and so you make things up.


Maybe I should just say God isn't all-loving, so you'll get your thumb out of your mouth.....


This is exactly what you keep doing. A perfect example is the verses that show that God hates a group of people. It is very clear that he hates the people, not their sins, yet you deny this anyways. When I show you that you are doing this, you completely change it around and say "I believe what I do". Well, that's great for you. But you're still wrong. It's not my fault you can't accept facts.


Look, another red herring....
Ok, sorry about the jokes, but I really couldn't care less about what you think anymore about me being blinded by my faith. Anybody who won't deconvert is blinded to you.


You believe what you do, and it's wrong.

Haha! My beliefs are WRONG? Ha! And I'm supposed to live in America.


Any normal and rational person can figure this out.

Hmmm.... Tell me, what is normal? Are you normal? Probably not.


actually believe that problem is that you do not understand English enough to use it's vocabulary.

Meh, probably so. Can I recommend Hooked on Phonics to you?


I have no idea what you are talking about. You are not making any sense. God said that "he shall lie with your wife in broad daylight". I don't see where it gives the wives an option to choose this. Also, what does God being all seeing and knowing have anything to do with rape?



It probably doesn't make sense cause I didn't finish it.

Adultery: extramarital sex that willfully and maliciously interferes with marriage relations; "adultery is often cited as grounds for divorce"
When one spouse has sexual intercourse with a third party. Grounds for divorce in some states and provinces. Adultery was regarded as a great social wrong, as well as a great sin.


No where do i see the word "voluntary" or "willing". Thats a bad definition, Nightmare.

I'd like to see this verse that says God is all-loving, and examples of where God says he hates people (I think you posted a few but I dont wanna read back the whole thread and I'm almost certain you have them handy)

Um, do you not understand English? I answered you already.

Let me ask it again, since apparently you do not understand that a yes or no questions demands a yes or no answer. Here we go!

Yes or no (implying, pick yes or pick no): Do you believe (this is the part you're going to answer yes or no to) that the OT laws still apply to this day. Yes or no (pick one or the other.) Hint: Saying "the Old laws have been completed" is not a yes or no answer.


You know, that's starting to really get old. You need to respect me, as a human being, not as someone who's incapable of thinking.

How can I respect you as a human capable of thinking? You're faith has blinded you so much, that you will even blatantly deny verses that clearly show my point. In other words, no matter how explicit a verse may be, you will always ignore it or dismiss it because of your blind faith. If I were to show you a verse that said "God came in human form, raped 3 people, and slaughtered little children", you're faith would demand that you say something to this along the lines of "God did it because it was a just punishment" or "that verse didn't say it was God". Maybe even "there was no rape or slaughtering in that verse" (in reality, it's there, you just aren't accepting the fact that it is.)

Of course, this verse really isn't in the bible, and it was just made up. But I am using it to show that no matter how clear a verse is, you will deny it because of your disgusting faith. Where as a normal person would rationalize that a loving God would not rape 3 people and slaughter little children, you would defend this because you do not wish to believe that your God would do such a thing, and so you make things up.

This is exactly what you keep doing. A perfect example is the verses that show that God hates a group of people. It is very clear that he hates the people, not their sins, yet you deny this anyways. When I show you that you are doing this, you completely change it around and say "I believe what I do". Well, that's great for you. But you're still wrong. It's not my fault you can't accept facts.


Um, and why would I care if I'm pissing YOU off? I believe what I do. If I wanna believe that God hated the sin, them drop it. You're focussing on only one little thing. You have to look at it in it's entirety. So, drop it, ok. You're not proving anything to me.

Well, I'm pretty sure the bible says something about loving your enemies, and turning the other cheek. The very fact that you don't care about how you negatively affect another person is a sin. But that's completely besides the point. You believe what you do, and it's wrong. Any normal and rational person can figure this out. It's not hard.


ARRRGGHHHH!!! It's ADULTERY!!!!! Do I not speak English? Am I not being understood?

I actually believe that problem is that you do not understand English enough to use it's vocabulary. Would you mind providing me with the definition of adultery, and then using this definition to point out how this act is adultery?


You know what? That actually sounds like it would make sense. If God said she WOULD lie with another man, then I can see your point, however....
God is all seeing, and all knowing.
I'll finish later.

I have no idea what you are talking about. You are not making any sense. God said that "he shall lie with your wife in broad daylight". I don't see where it gives the wives an option to choose this. Also, what does God being all seeing and knowing have anything to do with rape?


Adultery: extramarital sex that willfully and maliciously interferes with marriage relations; "adultery is often cited as grounds for divorce"
When one spouse has sexual intercourse with a third party. Grounds for divorce in some states and provinces. Adultery was regarded as a great social wrong, as well as a great sin.


No where do i see the word "voluntary" or "willing". Thats a bad definition, Nightmare.

It's not a bad definition. I got it from www.dictionary.com. You don't see the word willing? What do you think "willfully" means? So using your definition as well, my point is still proven. She is not given the option to willfully to it.


I'd like to see this verse that says God is all-loving, and examples of where God says he hates people (I think you posted a few but I dont wanna read back the whole thread and I'm almost certain you have them handy)

You provide me the verse that says God is all-loving; as it is by your claim that I posted verses to show this to be untrue. Here are the verses:

Leviticus 20:23 "You shall not follow the practices of the nation that I am driving out before you. Because they did all these things, I abhorred them."

Hosea 9:15 "Every evil of theirs began at Gil'gal; there I came to hate them. Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive them out of my house. I will love them no more; all their officials are rebels."

Proverbs 6:16-19 "There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that hurry to run to evil, a lying witness who testifies falsely, and one who sows discord in a family."

Psalm 5:5-6 "The boastful will not stand before your eyes; you hate all evildoers. You destroy those who speak lies; the Lord abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful."

It's not a bad definition. I got it from www.dictionary.com. You don't see the word willing? What do you think "willfully" means? So using your definition as well, my point is still proven. She is not given the option to willfully to it.



You provide me the verse that says God is all-loving; as it is by your claim that I posted verses to show this to be untrue. Here are the verses:

Leviticus 20:23 "You shall not follow the practices of the nation that I am driving out before you. Because they did all these things, I abhorred them."

Hosea 9:15 "Every evil of theirs began at Gil'gal; there I came to hate them. Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive them out of my house. I will love them no more; all their officials are rebels."

Proverbs 6:16-19 "There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that hurry to run to evil, a lying witness who testifies falsely, and one who sows discord in a family."

Psalm 5:5-6 "The boastful will not stand before your eyes; you hate all evildoers. You destroy those who speak lies; the Lord abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful."
Wow... I can't really read today lol
I'll stick o one argument at a time, if that's fine with you? The all-loving one for now.
I said God was all loving? perhaps I was wrong? As I don't see a verse that proves that. So, your verses that show God hates things dont prove anything either. But you should also note:
Leviticus 20:23 "You shall not follow the practices of the nation that I am driving out before you. Because they did all these things, I abhorred them."
Abhor means to regard with horror or loathing; detest. It is possible to love someone and not like what they do. Like when your dad (or at least mine) used to say he loved my mom but didnt like when she did stupid things.

Me Hosea 9:15-16 says: All their evil came out into the open
at the pagan shrine at Gilgal. Oh, how I hated them there! Because of their evil practices,
I'll kick them off my land. I'm wasting no more love on them.
Their leaders are a bunch of rebellious adolescents. Ephraim is hit hard—
roots withered, no more fruit. Even if by some miracle they had children,
the dear babies wouldn't live—I'd make sure of that!"
Then John 15:9-10 says: "As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love."
God loves everyone except those who choose to reject Him. Theoretically, we all begin as Children of God, we are all born by His Spirit and have His love and His Word imprinted into our minds and hearts (I think there's a verse saying that as well). That evrse taken out of Hosea shows that the people are wicked, and therefore not obedient to God's law, and therefore not loved by God. God is consistent.

Proverbs 6:16-19: "There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that hurry to run to evil, a lying witness who testifies falsely, and one who sows discord in a family."
These are things that God hates. I dont see how this furthers your point about God not loving everyone.

Psalm 5:5-6 "The boastful will not stand before your eyes; you hate all evildoers. You destroy those who speak lies; the Lord abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful."
Again with the word "abhor"

My point is, if anyone tells you God is all-loving, there are 3 possibilities. One, they want it to be true, but it isn't. Two, it is automatically attributed to God, but without proof, and proven untrue. or three, told to someone in tie of crisis for comfort, which whether it works or not, is dishonorable and a shame to God's name. I will faithfully say that God is very loving, more loving that any other being is perhaps, but not all-loving. Think about it, We were created from the likeness of God, we can love because he loves, thus we can hate because he can too. Hate is usefull. Love is more useful, but you must admit that hate does have it's uses.

One, they want it to be true, but it isn't.

Meh, I'm one of those people.
Nightmare, I know God isn't all loving, dude. I really believe that God hated some people. The fact of the matter is, Christianity does. Some Christians do believe He is all-loving, and that's what Christianity teaches. I would love to believe that He loves all, but I'd be a fool to. Now, why would I lead you on like that.....

A. For the longest time, I thought you were debating Christianity on this all-loving stuff. I didn't fully understand you were debating ME on it.
B. It was kinda funny, seeing you get all worked up over something so small, like how I said that since you use examples fromthe Bible, you must be a hypocrite, or something like that. Pardon my immaturity.

Yeah, God really can't be all loving hence there is the presence of hell and the devil had fallen from God. But you really have to sin and never regret what you have done to get there. As long as you live a moral life, you have nothing to worry about.

Christianity is more than all these beliefs, its a way of life. It is about caring for people and living a moral life as well as the beliefs that go along with it.

Keep in mind also that there is more than one interpretation of Christianity out there other than the Catholic one.

Just like God. Just because you can't prove he/she's there doesn't mean he doesn't exist.

What, are you calling me close minded? Like I said before, I'm open to both aspects of science and religion. I think you're the one who's quickly dismissing Christians as stupid and ignorant. :rolleyes:

I havent called you closed minded, so please dont act all tough and puffed up like I just hit you over the head with the Bible. I ment "be open minded" to be directed at the general public, not directed at just you. And I did say keep an open mind, but once you start killing others over what you cant prove yet, start making "holy" days in the name of it, start making religions over it, then it gets silly.

Yes, the Big Bang is my god :shifty:


A classmate of mine once went to an American school for a year and said it was a breeze. Dutch schools have 7 levels. American highschools are on level 3 out of 7. :spam:

Yes, out of country schools are better then American schools, but I think that only applys to non collage/uni schools. They all teach the same things and the only thing that will make it easy is if the professor makes it easy. MIT is still one of the greatest school of tech in the world :spam:

I havent called you closed minded, so please dont act all tough and puffed up like I just hit you over the head with the Bible. I ment "be open minded" to be directed at the general public, not directed at just you. And I did say keep an open mind, but once you start killing others over what you cant prove yet, start making "holy" days in the name of it, start making religions over it, then it gets silly.

Yes, the Big Bang is my god :shifty:
:lol: You're such a tool.

Be open minded to what? Everything? You don't seem open minded to religion, so I guess that makes you a hypocrite.

There's a difference between being open minded and disliking a religion. Just disliking a religion for good reasons doesn't make you narrow-minded. Saying a religion is the best without knowing anything of any other religion does.

Wow... I can't really read today lol
I'll stick o one argument at a time, if that's fine with you? The all-loving one for now.
I said God was all loving? perhaps I was wrong? As I don't see a verse that proves that. So, your verses that show God hates things dont prove anything either.

Yes, you did say God was all loving. Particularly when you said He is all-loving in the sense that he loves all human beings. "Hate the sin, Love the sinner". And indeed you were were wrong, as my verses have shown. Yes, my verses do prove that your claim that God is all loving is incorrect.


Yes, you said God was all loving. But you should also note:
Leviticus 20:23 "You shall not follow the practices of the nation that I am driving out before you. Because they did all these things, I abhorred them."
Abhor means to regard with horror or loathing; detest. It is possible to love someone and not like what they do. Like when your dad (or at least mine) used to say he loved my mom but didnt like when she did stupid things.

Nice try. But abhor is a synonym for hate. Here you go: http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/hate


Me Hosea 9:15-16 says: All their evil came out into the open
at the pagan shrine at Gilgal. Oh, how I hated them there! Because of their evil practices,
I'll kick them off my land. I'm wasting no more love on them.
Their leaders are a bunch of rebellious adolescents. Ephraim is hit hard—
roots withered, no more fruit. Even if by some miracle they had children,
the dear babies wouldn't live—I'd make sure of that!"

Um...my verse says "oh how YOU hated them". Why don't you quote from an online bible and post the link.


Proverbs 6:16-19: "There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that hurry to run to evil, a lying witness who testifies falsely, and one who sows discord in a family."
These are things that God hates. I dont see how this furthers your point about God not loving everyone.

No, the first 4 are things. A witness is a person, and so is "one who sows discord in a family". As the last two are people, and they are hated by the Lord, you claim is untrue.


Psalm 5:5-6 "The boastful will not stand before your eyes; you hate all evildoers. You destroy those who speak lies; the Lord abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful."
Again with the word "abhor"

See above.


Think about it, We were created from the likeness of God, we can love because he loves, thus we can hate because he can too. Hate is usefull. Love is more useful, but you must admit that hate does have it's uses.

So can God sin? If we can sin, then surely God can too. Yet if sin is no part of God, then why is it a part of us?

So can God sin?

God, can do anything He wants. But, He doesn't sin, because it isn't the right thing to do. He is perfect. He doesn't sin.


Yet if sin is no part of God, then why is it a part of us?

Because WE are imperfect. We are made IN THE IMAGE of God, that doesn't mean we ARE God. God has never sinned.

God invented sin.

God invented sin.

Hmmm, that sounds rather interesting. You wanna broaden your claim a little more?

God invented sin.
I suppose in a sense he did. He gave us free will. With free will comes probabilities for many outcomes. Apparently, sin had a high probality of occurring and so it did.

I suppose in a sense he did. He gave us free will. With free will comes probabilities for many outcomes. Apparently, sin had a high probality of occurring and so it did. You could also look at it in another sense. God can sin but doesn't because He knows everything including the outcomes of sin. We, as humans, do not know the significance and potential ill occurrences, therefore we act on the option to sin.

No. If God created everything, then he also created sin.

God can sin but doesn't because He knows everything
If God could sin, then he created sin. Didn't he?

Yes, you did say God was all loving. Particularly when you said He is all-loving in the sense that he loves all human beings. "Hate the sin, Love the sinner". And indeed you were were wrong, as my verses have shown. Yes, my verses do prove that your claim that God is all loving is incorrect.


So can God sin? If we can sin, then surely God can too. Yet if sin is no part of God, then why is it a part of us?
What was your goal with this all-loving debate? Because if it was to disprove God via a contradiction in the Bible, this argument only shows that God never was all-loving and there is no contradiction. Unless you were simply proving me wrong =P


Hmmm, I think my analogy was false. It says we are created in God image, not ways of acting and stuff.


God invented sin.
No He didn't. God created the possibility for sin by giving us humans free will. We actualized that possibility. So I guess you could say the serpent, or adam and eve, invented sin

It was to disprove your claim. I'd have to read back a page or two....or three or four to see what I was trying to get at with getting you to agree with me. Meh. I'll do it later.

If God would sin, wouldn't it be a sin against himself?...

God cannot sin. What he does dictates what is not sin, so everything he does isn't a sin.

Thought so.:lol:

No He didn't. God created the possibility for sin by giving us humans free will. We actualized that possibility. So I guess you could say the serpent, or adam and eve, invented sin

If God created everything, then he created sin. Simple as that. Even if we triggered it - he created us. He created the possibility of sin? Please... that only strengthens my statement. If he made a possibility for sin. Who created *sin* itself? The serpent? Adam and Eve? No. Everything is created by God. If you think they actualized sin - which I can get onboard with - then you'll have to ask yourself what or who created sin itself.

God did not create sin. what you're saying doesn't really make sense, like, you're saying that lawmakers created criminals because they wrote the law. Sin is anything thta goes against God. God did not create things that went against Himself, humans chose to go against Him.

God cannot sin. What he does dictates what is not sin, so everything he does isn't a sin.

Then ordering people to kill others because they believe in something different than he does isn't a crime, so by that logic Hitler didn't commit a sin by killing the jews.

Good point, thats gonna be a tough one to defend

Not a good point. The people God ordered the Jews to kill were heinous and evil. He's God, only He has the right to take life away (Which he does for everybody fyi, it's called death). Hitler killed off the Jews because they surrendered Germany in World War ! and he needed someone to blame to arouse public support. Then he made it sound like a Christian mission to justify it. Not the same.

:think: Maybe God can not sin because sin is something only humans can do?

Not a good point. The people God ordered the Jews to kill were heinous and evil. He's God, only He has the right to take life away (Which he does for everybody fyi, it's called death). Hitler killed off the Jews because they surrendered Germany in World War ! and he needed someone to blame to arouse public support. Then he made it sound like a Christian mission to justify it. Not the same.

Who says the people God ordered to kill were evil? God? Hitler thought that the Jews were evil.

Saying God has the right to tell people to kill others means you also have to respect when muslim terrorists blow up World Trade Centers because Allah ordered them to do so, so by your logic muslim terrorists are no criminals because their God ordered them to do it. You proof them wrong, if you can.

Who says the people God ordered to kill were evil? God? Hitler thought that the Jews were evil.

Saying God has the right to tell people to kill others means you also have to respect when muslim terrorists blow up World Trade Centers because Allah ordered them to do so, so by your logic muslim terrorists are no criminals because their God ordered them to do it. You proof them wrong, if you can.
Which people are you talking about?

I respect all human beings. They did sin because their "god" is not the God of Judgement (Don't call me ignorant, you saw this coming and it is my answer). Even with that put aside, I never read anywhere in the Qu'ran where it says to fly planes into buildings.

what you're saying doesn't really make sense, like, you're saying that lawmakers created criminals because they wrote the law.
That's not a good comparison. God is omnipotent, thus he, and only himself, could ever have created sin. He created sin. He gave us free will and we triggered it. He still created it.

If God is to be praised for everything good that's going on, then he's also the one to blame when something bad happens.

What the hell are you talking about? So God created computers and cars and planes and lamps and the light bulb and all technological advances too? He didnt create everything. He created the universe, and life, and His Law. His Law establishes what is right, not what is wrong. He didn't create sin, human beings did. the only way to create sin is to perform it because sinning is an action. Are you implying that God has sinned?

:lol: You're such a tool.

Be open minded to what? Everything? You don't seem open minded to religion, so I guess that makes you a hypocrite.

Sorry master, did I say somthing that made you act high, mighty and down right rude?

Theres a diffrence between trying to find a phone number in a phone book (which should be the right number if the person hasnt moved or other sort) and asking your little sister to guess and trusting her. One has the bigger chance of being right and the other is left to fate.

Phonebook > Little Sister

:bleh:

You are obviously a smart person, so why are you trying to say that I am being stupid for being open minded to science but not religion. Obviously if I was to trust religion it would all be based on crappy books, a man in a building and faith. Science on the other hand is there. Is what you are wearing, it is your house. It is you for craps sake.

Anyways, are you pro religion or not? You sure act like it.

Sorry master, did I say somthing that made you act high, mighty and down right rude?

Theres a diffrence between trying to find a phone number in a phone book (which should be the right number if the person hasnt moved or other sort) and asking your little sister to guess and trusting her. One has the bigger chance of being right and the other is left to fate.

Phonebook > Little Sister

:bleh:

You are obviously a smart person, so why are you trying to say that I am being stupid for being open minded to science but not religion. Obviously if I was to trust religion it would all be based on crappy books, a man in a building and faith. Science on the other hand is there. Is what you are wearing, it is your house. It is you for craps sake.

Anyways, are you pro religion or not? You sure act like it.
And you sure act like there is something wrong with having a faith in a higher being.

Christianity is all around me, I go to a Christian school, my entire family is Christian etc. I used to be Christian but I've been agnostic for about 2 years.

I'll ask you what I asked Nightmare then, if someone claims to be touched by God or a higher being in general, are they completely delusional? Are you one to go up to their face and say "No, there is no God, you're absolutely crackers."?

Which people are you talking about?

I respect all human beings. They did sin because their "god" is not the God of Judgement (Don't call me ignorant, you saw this coming and it is my answer). Even with that put aside, I never read anywhere in the Qu'ran where it says to fly planes into buildings.

I am calling you ignorant cos saying that the Christian God is the only one who has the right to judge IS ignorant. It's exactly what the other religions say and even if YOU believe that YOU are right, THEY believe that THEY are right. Basically, by your logic (I believe what I think is right and what YOU say doesn't matter) would make it very easy for people to commit any crime they want and get away with it (because they can say their God ordered them to do so.

It's not ignorant to think that your God is the only one who has the right to judge but it is ignorant to state as a fact that your God actually HAS the right. He won't as long as there are people who believe otherwise, and even if you say they are wrong, they'll say you are wrong and there is no way for anyone to proof who's right.

:think: Maybe God can not sin because sin is something only humans can do?

EXACTLY! God gave humans FREE WILL, the ability not to be robots of God!
Thus, humans can sin!

I am calling you ignorant cos saying that the Christian God is the only one who has the right to judge IS ignorant. It's exactly what the other religions say and even if YOU believe that YOU are right, THEY believe that THEY are right. Basically, by your logic (I believe what I think is right and what YOU say doesn't matter) would make it very easy for people to commit any crime they want and get away with it (because they can say their God ordered them to do so.

It's not ignorant to think that your God is the only one who has the right to judge but it is ignorant to state as a fact that your God actually HAS the right. He won't as long as there are people who believe otherwise, and even if you say they are wrong, they'll say you are wrong and there is no way for anyone to proof who's right.
I still don't see where Allah commanded bin Laden to start a hate organization and kill people. Because their God never did say that. So they cannot say that their God commanded us to and He is always right, because he never did. Therefore he gets judged by moral standards. Killing innocent people halfway across the glboe is wrong. Thus, he has sinned.

It's like you says yourself, this is someone taking religion totally out of context to justify war/hostile action.

You say he never did, but who says he didn't? How can you proof that? Do you have anything to proof that? Did God whisper in your ear that Allah didn't send Bin Laden?

Bush calls his war on terror a crusade. Weren't crusades ordered by the church in the old days? In the name of God? What's Bush doing, carrying out God's order by attacking the middle East?

He wouldnt be God if He commanded the death of innocent people (and I know EXACT;Y where that statement will lead me, and when you're about to say what you'll say, cite verses please)

It isn't that kind of crusade. It was first and foremost, him finishing his daddy's unfinished work from the early 1990s. September 11 was a wake-up call for us.

Your God commanded the death of innocent people. To the jews they were evil but other than that maybe not. Americans are evil in the eyes of some muslims, because Americans always come to the middle east and cause trouble there for them.

Did I not just say when you were gonna say "Your God did that" to cite verses?...... sigh

Americans are evil in the eyes of some muslims, because Americans always come to the middle east and cause trouble there for them.

And also partly because they do not like the lifestyle of the typical American.

God did not create sin. what you're saying doesn't really make sense, like, you're saying that lawmakers created criminals because they wrote the law. Sin is anything thta goes against God. God did not create things that went against Himself, humans chose to go against Him.

actually, that does make sense. Once a person creates a law, there would be someone who would break it. Desire and curiosity is what brings people to break the law for every new law established. Humans are humans after all.

actually, that does make sense. Once a person creates a law, there would be someone who would break it. Desire and curiosity is what brings people to break the law for every new law established. Humans are humans after all.
You agreeing or disagreeing with me? (lol)

Did I not just say when you were gonna say "Your God did that" to cite verses?...... sigh

http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm

Wow, all I had to do was read half of the first paragraph.

"In much of the Bible, especially the Old Testament, there are laws that command that people be killed for absurd reasons such as working on the Sabbath, being gay, cursing your parents, or not being a virgin on your wedding night"
Those are all sins punishable by death, as back then countries were theocracies. Duh.

The killing of the children, you can look at that as for the world's benefit. if all your parents do is teach you evil, you're better of dead than vile. Thats less on your own conscience as well, and preventing children from doing evil could also make it easier for them to get into heaven.

As for the wiping out of entire towns and stuff, read writings/essays of biblical scholars and historians. They were evil people, and God delayed their destruction for centuried before finally deciding to give them their just punishment. God may be loving, but he is also just, and did what had to be done. Most of those neighboring towns/nations/whatever were constantly attacking Israel, and if Israel didnt survive Jesus could have never came.

They were evil people, and God delayed their destruction for centuried before finally deciding to give them their just punishment. God may be loving, but he is also just, and did what had to be done.

And now from a muslim terrorist POV:


They were evil people, and Allah delayed their destruction for centuried before finally deciding to give them their just punishment. Allah may be loving, but he is also just, and did what had to be done.

You have no point. Everything you say about your God, muslims can say about their God.

Except the Bible details the evils that the people of ancient times did. I dont see anything in the Qu'ran about Americans. So I do have a case, they dont.

What evils did they do? And the Qu'ran is slightly outdated, so it can't cover anything the Americans have done in the middle-East over the past decennia or centuries. So that doesn't work either.

You present examples of killing in the Bible and dont even know why God ordered them to happen? Thats worse than blind faith; reading a website and believing everything it says because it's what you want to hear.
And that's the genius of the Bible: prophecy. The Qu'ran does no such thing. The works of the Bible were written within the generation of the eyewitnesses. the Qu'ran was written 500-600 years later.
For example, the Gospels:

Here are the dates given in the modern NIV Study Bible:

Mark: c. 50's to early 60's, or late 60's
Matthew: c. 50 to 70's
Luke: c. 59 to 63, or 70's to 80's
John: c. 85 to near 100, or 50's to 70


Textual Evidence
According to the Catholic Encyclopedia [7], the text in the Qu'ran is traced to six sources:

The Old Testament canonical and apocryphal and the hybrid Judaism of the late rabbinical schools. During Mohammed's time the Jews were numerous in many parts of Arabia, especially around Medina. Familiarity's with them is undoubtly responsible for many Old Testament stories alluded to in the Qu'ran. Later Judaism and Rabbinism are equally well represented [8] [9].
The New Testament (canonical and apocryphal) and various heretical doctrines. On his journeys between Syria, Hijaz, and Yemen, Mohammed had every opportunity to come in close touch with Yemenite, Abyssinian, Ghassanite, and Syrian Christians, especially heretic. Hence, while the influence of orthodox Christianity upon the Qu'ran has been slight, apocryphal and non-orthodox Christian legends, on the other hand, are one of the original sources of Qu'ranic faith. For example, episodes from the Arabic Infancy Gospel can clearly be found in the Qu'ran. [10]
Sabaism, a combination of Judaism, Manicheism, and old disfigured Babylonian heathenism.
Zoroastrianism. On account of Persia's political influence in the north-eastern part of Arabia, it is natural to find Zoroastrian elements in the Qu'ran. One such suggestion of Zoroastrianism's influence on Islam is based on the conclusion by the Jewish orientalist, Ignaz Goldziher, in his book "Islamisme et Parsisme" [11], that the incident of Isra and Mai'raj in Islam (Muhammad's ascension to the heavens) finds resemblance to the Iranian "Divina Commedia" called Arda Wiraz Namag. Ibn Warraq quoted the Christian missionary, Tisdall, on this, claiming that the book Arda Wiraz Namag was composed 400 years before Muhammad.
However, the scholars of Persian studies believe that Arda Wiraz Namag was redacted finally in 9th-10th centuries CE, at least a century after the advent of Islam [12]. In this regard, Encyclopaedia Iranica states that: "The Arda Wiraz-namag, like many of the Zoroastrian works, underwent successive redactions. It assumed its definitive form in the 9th-10th centuries AD" [13]. Gignoux says the following about the same: "It is known that the whole of the Pahalvi literature was written tardily, roughly speaking after the Muslim conquest, and that it however transmitted extremely old traditions to us, from Sasanide and even pre-Sasanide times" [14].
Hanifism, the adherents of which, called Hanifs (not to be confused with Hanafi, followers of the Hanafi school of thought), must have been considerable in number and influence, as it is known from contemporary Arabian sources that twelve of Mohammed's followers were members of this sect.
Although, Muhammad Hamidullah, a notable scholar of Islam, states that as per Islamic beliefs, Hanifism, which preached monotheism through worship to Allah, was the true religion of mankind prior to Islam being formally completed, and that Abraham was a follower of this religion. [15]. Osama Abdallah, a Muslim comparative religion analyst, remarks that the Hanifs (Unitarians) are honored in the Quran. [16]. According to Islamic scholars, 'Hanifs' simply means monotheists, and it is not a religion separate from Islam, further stating that all Muslims (and Christians and Jews) are Hanifs [17]
Native ancient and contemporary Arabian heathen beliefs and practices. Wellhausen has collected in his "Reste des arabischen Heidentums" (Berlin, 1897) all that is known of pre-Islamic Arabian heathen belief, traditions, customs, and superstitions, many of which are either alluded to or accepted and incorporated in the Qu'ran. From the various sects and creeds, and Abul-Fida, the well-known historian and geographer of the thirteenth century, it is clear that religious beliefs and practices of the Arabs of Mohammed's day form one of the many sources of Islam. From this heathen source Islam derived the practices of polygamy and slavery, which Mohammed sanctioned by adopting them

Similarities of the Qu'ran and the bible: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Similarities_between_the_Bible_and_the_Qur%27an

News article:

The conclusions of...historians of Islam are devastating: that we know almost nothing about the life of the Muslim prophet Mohammad; that the rapid rise of the religion can be attributed, at least in part, to the attraction of Islam's message of conquest and jihad for the tribes of the Arabian peninsula; that the Koran as we know it today was compiled, or perhaps even written, long after Mohammad's supposed death in 632AD. Most controversially of all, the researchers say that there existed an anti-Christian alliance between Arabs and Jews in the earliest days of Islam, and that the religion may be best understood as a heretical branch of rabbinical Judaism.

With no contemporary Muslim sources to refer to, a group of young historians working under the brilliant linguist Professor John Wansbrough at the University of London's School of Oriental and African Studies (SOAS) in the Seventies developed new scholarly techniques, drawing heavily on earlier biblical scholarship. Following Wansbrough's lead, they decided to look at the Koran as a literary text, to compare it to other devotional writings of the period and to look at internal clues to its origin. They found that it owed much to Judaism, especially the Talmud, a collection of commentaries and interpretations of the Hebrew Bible. They concluded, tentatively, that in the form that survives, the Koran was compiled, if not written, decades after the time of Mohammad, probably by converts to Islam in the Middle East, who introduced elements from the religions previously dominant in the region. Patricia Crone and Michael Cook, also working at SOAS at the time, provided an even more devastating analysis by looking at the only surviving contemporary accounts of the Islamic invasion, written in Armenian, Greek, Aramaic and Syriac by Middle Eastern witnesses to the rise of Islam. They found that Islam, as represented by admittedly biased sources, was in essence a tribal conspiracy against the Byzantine and Persian empires with deep roots in Judaism, and that Arabs and Jews were allies in these conquering communities.


So no, it does work, and yes, Christianity does have a case.

And you sure act like there is something wrong with having a faith in a higher being.

Christianity is all around me, I go to a Christian school, my entire family is Christian etc. I used to be Christian but I've been agnostic for about 2 years.

I'll ask you what I asked Nightmare then, if someone claims to be touched by God or a higher being in general, are they completely delusional? Are you one to go up to their face and say "No, there is no God, you're absolutely crackers."?

I wouldnt say they are crazy but misled. I could say god poured me a glass of juice with my meds when I woke up but really it was my mom before she left. I could be totaly sure it was god, but untill my mom comes to tell me she did it I would be convinced it is god.

All those things people say was gods doing was either their own doings for they did it and they dont know they did it so the only other thing that could have done it is this all mighty being thats everywhere. They are not completely delusional. Would a child who has an invisable friend completely delusional?

And yes, I do think there is somthing wrong with having faith in a higher being for there is good that comes in beliving in it, but in the end all the bad that comes out of it over weighs it many folds over. Is the killing of many people worth it when your grandma somehow gets rid of her cancer? Is the suffering people go through due to discrimination worth you having a feeling of good in your self?

I hope not.


Your God commanded the death of innocent people. To the jews they were evil but other than that maybe not. Americans are evil in the eyes of some muslims, because Americans always come to the middle east and cause trouble there for them.

Its not just Americans Angelic. Japan is there, Belgium was there, the UK was even there. So shall we forget that they were their and just bash America? Yes, if America did go its a good guess no one else would have went, but that doesnt change the fact that other countries sent forces there.

That not only proves that people are to focused on America but that Muslums terrorist are narrow minded.

Also what about Muslim Americans, they too are American citizens wich means that the acts of September 11th also had an impact on them. They do not support what the terrorists had done.

Hey, I'm not saying they're right, I'm just saying that people who follow the bible are hypocrites when pointing a finger at them and say they're doing something wrong.

Hey, I'm not saying they're right, I'm just saying that people who follow the bible are hypocrites when pointing a finger at them and say they're doing something wrong.
You always ignore my posts when I make a point. Hah

Maybe because you didn't prove him wrong?

I did actually, check the posts.

Wow, all I had to do was read half of the first paragraph.

"In much of the Bible, especially the Old Testament, there are laws that command that people be killed for absurd reasons such as working on the Sabbath, being gay, cursing your parents, or not being a virgin on your wedding night"
Those are all sins punishable by death, as back then countries were theocracies. Duh.

The killing of the children, you can look at that as for the world's benefit. if all your parents do is teach you evil, you're better of dead than vile. Thats less on your own conscience as well, and preventing children from doing evil could also make it easier for them to get into heaven.

As for the wiping out of entire towns and stuff, read writings/essays of biblical scholars and historians. They were evil people, and God delayed their destruction for centuried before finally deciding to give them their just punishment. God may be loving, but he is also just, and did what had to be done. Most of those neighboring towns/nations/whatever were constantly attacking Israel, and if Israel didnt survive Jesus could have never came.

Your evil. I say so, it is written, so does that justify your killing? According to your logic, yes.

Notice your bold. God is Jesus, Jesus is the Holy Ghost and the Holy Ghost is God. If the three has so much power then God could have put Jesus somewhere else.

Now you would probably say, based on what many Christians tell me on such a scenario, is that Jesus cant be born from somewhere else because the future is already as is/God knows the future. If so, then why does god even bother letting us live? Cant he just send those that will go to heaven to heaven and others that will go to hell to hell from the start? Wait, God needs a reason to send people to hell.

I am also going to guess what you will say to that based on what else I know of Christians. If we can change our path in life, then why did god command the killing of all those people? They could have changed.

Or could they?

~

My real question to darksage: Why did God create us? And before God created us, did he sit around for an eternaty into the past? That a long time to be bored. And before he created the universe, where was God? He couldnt have been omnipresent for there is no where to be present in.

Historians proved they were evil. And tried to conquer Israel so many times.

God lets us live to glorify Him. If He just threw people into Heaven He would have never gotten the glory. And we wouldn't have been worthy of Heaven.

God created us to glorify Himself, thats our purpose in life. I dont know what He did before he created everything

And no. Jesus isnt the Father. The Holy Spirit isnt the Father. Jesus isnt the Holy Spirit. They are separate beings with the same Spirit - The Word of God (refer to the first line of John's Gospel)

Why would he put Jesus somewhere else? It was already prophecied where Jesus would be born. And His location would also affect who He met, and the apostles were chosen by God in Heaven, so Jesus had to be born where they were.

Wow, so he creates life, thus creating suffering for trillions and trillions just so some of the trillions can say "We like you God". I guess people are wrong, liking yourself for who you are isnt enough.

So when I grow up, im going to have as many kids as I can just so they can go around saying "My dad is cool. If you dont think so Im going to kill you". And if some tries to evict one of my kids im going to either 1) kill them myself or 2) send others to kill them because all that matters is that my kids go around saying "My dad is cool. If you dont think so im going to kill you".

If its okay for God to do, why cant I?

Do as you wish.

He didn't create sin, human beings did

The God of the Hebrews created and practiced evil several times.

Historians proved they were evil. And tried to conquer Israel so many times.

God lets us live to glorify Him. If He just threw people into Heaven He would have never gotten the glory. And we wouldn't have been worthy of Heaven.

God created us to glorify Himself, thats our purpose in life. I dont know what He did before he created everything

And no. Jesus isnt the Father. The Holy Spirit isnt the Father. Jesus isnt the Holy Spirit. They are separate beings with the same Spirit - The Word of God (refer to the first line of John's Gospel)

Why would he put Jesus somewhere else? It was already prophecied where Jesus would be born. And His location would also affect who He met, and the apostles were chosen by God in Heaven, so Jesus had to be born where they were.

The jews stole Israel from other people in the first place, and of course they wanted it back. Look at the situation now with israel, they keep snatching land around it and then cry when people blow them up. I have no respect for the israelies, personally. They're hardly any better than Hitler was. In fact, God told them to steal that land waaay back in history, so let's put that today. What's wrong with Hitler stealing some land here and there? Or China trying to steal Taiwan? Nothing wrong with that, eh? The Jews could so why not others?

The jews stole Israel from other people in the first place, and of course they wanted it back. Look at the situation now with israel, they keep snatching land around it and then cry when people blow them up. I have no respect for the israelies, personally. They're hardly any better than Hitler was. In fact, God told them to steal that land waaay back in history, so let's put that today. What's wrong with Hitler stealing some land here and there? Or China trying to steal Taiwan? Nothing wrong with that, eh? The Jews could so why not others?
No the Hebrews were there first, then they were forced into Egypt and the Arabs went there and fought for it for like 1000 years and kept it for that long, and then when the Jews were finally able to come back they wanted it back. I mean really, I wouldn't know who to give it to either man. Jews were there first and were forced out. But the Arabs fought and won wars for it for hundreds and hundreds of years

It's like, say you get kidnapped,. Someone buys the house that you built yourself. While you're gone a family lives there, keeps the house clean and pays the bills, and then years later, the police find you, and you come back to see people living in your house. Who should get it?

I found the book I was talking about earlier. It not called The Word, its called The Message. It's the bible translated into Contemporary English. Here is what some of the verses mentioned in the past say...

Leviticus 20:23
"You simply must not live like the nations I'm driving out before you. They did all these things and I hated every minute of it."

Proverbs 6:16-19
"Here are six things God hates, and one more that he loathes with a passion:
eyes that are arrogant,
a tongue that lies,
hands that murder the innocent,
a heart that hatches evil plots,
feet that race down a wicked track,
a mouth that lies under oath,
a troublemaker in the family."

Psalm 5:5-6
"Hot-Air-Boaster collapses in front of you; you shake your head over Mischief-Maker. GOD destroys Lie-Speaker; Blood-Thirsty and Truth-Bender disgust you."

And..?

Just to be more clear on what the verses say in Contemporary English, no particular reason at all.:lol:

The jews stole Israel from other people in the first place, and of course they wanted it back. Look at the situation now with israel, they keep snatching land around it and then cry when people blow them up. I have no respect for the israelies, personally. They're hardly any better than Hitler was. In fact, God told them to steal that land waaay back in history, so let's put that today. What's wrong with Hitler stealing some land here and there? Or China trying to steal Taiwan? Nothing wrong with that, eh? The Jews could so why not others?

True, and let's not forget about Joshua 6:21 for starters...

I am calling you ignorant cos saying that the Christian God is the only one who has the right to judge IS ignorant.

Dude, you shouldn't be calling anybody ignorant anyway. That's why you're not being taken seriously. That's how you work:
"God has the right to judge. God is the only one who can judge"
You: Oh! You're ignorant! Why? Cause I say so, and because anybody can say that about anything! So HA! You're IGNORANT!!!
Dude, seriously man, respect him. If your best argument is calling him ignorant, then you really have not argument, do you?


If we can change our path in life, then why did god command the killing of all those people? They could have changed.


You know, they probably could have. The thing is, God never killed(or commanded war) without reason. Take the flood for example. Sure, maybe some of those people there weren't as bad as some of the others, but the world was so sinful, that God was just like, "forget it. they don't appreciate what I do, then they deserve to be wiped out." That's basically, how it was back then. You have to remember the time period. Back in those days, people were killed for just about everything, because you couldn't afford to have a bad seed. "One bad seed can spoil the entire crop," I'm sure you've heard that one before. They didn't have jail systems in the Jewish society, so, that's what they did.


Wow, so he creates life, thus creating suffering for trillions and trillions just so some of the trillions can say "We like you God". I guess people are wrong, liking yourself for who you are isnt enough.


I think..... That the suffering that goes on today is still from Original Sin. When Adam and Eve sinned, they were cast out of the paradise God created for them. Thus, suffering began. And it's not a simple, "We like you God." It's a lot more than that. When you truly believe, then it's a lot more than that.


So when I grow up, im going to have as many kids as I can just so they can go around saying "My dad is cool. If you dont think so Im going to kill you". And if some tries to evict one of my kids im going to either 1) kill them myself or 2) send others to kill them because all that matters is that my kids go around saying "My dad is cool. If you dont think so im going to kill you".

If its okay for God to do, why cant I?

Come on now, that's not really what God does. I think that's too much of an exaggeration. Look at me, as an example. I'm not going around, killing people. The New Testement is the completion of the Bible. You can't just focus on one event. You have to look at the entire message the Bible gives.

I was being sarcastic, but thanks for picking it up.

Why doesnt God do anything anymore? He doesnt tell any Jews to kill the Muslums trying to invaid Israel, theres no giant flood to kill the gays, theres no bread raining over poor places in the world and so on. WHY?! Did Siva kill him/her/it?



I found this at evilbible.com and I thought it was funny. So Ill post it for those who dont know of the site:


10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.

9 - You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.

8 - You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.

7 - Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" including women, children, and trees!

6 - You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.

5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.

4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."


3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity.

2 - You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.

1 - You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian.

If anyone here is a Mormom (LDS..):

http://www.alwaysbeready.com/library/campbell-charlie/studies-topical/mormon/mormon-b.htm

Broken link.