OK, so today I tried to start on the summer movement of my sonata, and I had this melody pop into my head. I knew it wasn't major or minor or dorian or mixolydian, so I was trying to figure out if it was one of the other medieval modes. Then, when I wrote what the scale for that melody would be down, it had sharps AND flats in it. Later, I realized that this melody was very similar to the melody from the Deku Tree part in Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of time. Still, I wondered if anyone else has had any experiences with a key signature with sharps and flats in it, because it fascinates me.@_@ I think I might try to make it less similar to the LOZ song, but I think I want to continue writing in that key. I'm going to post it right now (not for critique). I'm confused, though, because Finale does it weird...

Ah... It's probably septatonic or pentatonic minor scales... :/

Don't pentatonic scales have only 4 steps? It has 7 steps and a definite pattern, so I don't know...Wouldn't a Septatonic have 6 steps

Pentatonic has 5 steps, Do-re-mi-so-la, in minor it would go La-do-re-mi-so# (sharp), and septatonic (seven steps)... I am not sure about that, but look it up somewhere, since it's also a common Oriental scale... But I am sure it's a scale of some sort... If not, it *might* (I'm not quite sure, don't rely on me on this, because I am not quite familiar with this branch) be atonal... :\

Hmm, could be a harmonic minor scale or one of the modes of that. In D, harmonic minor would have both sharps and flats: D E F G A Bb C# D. I can't say I've ever seen a nonstandard key signature, though. I think they just use accidentals in such cases.

I haven't the time to look extensively, but I do remember there being a link to a site in the "Music Theory and Composition Tutorials" topic (I think it changed to "Composing General Chat") that has a HUGE directory of scales: tonal, modal, oriental, atonal, etc.. I suggest looking in there for more information (or, at the very least, reference) about irregular scales or going to Google.

Anyway, I do agree that Irregular Key Signatures are extremely fascinating, though I try to stick with tonal and modal keys. I may experiment with new scales soon, though... *hints*

I use that scale a lot for improvisation, as I think it sounds great. I'm not sure what it's called, but it's common in Jewish and/or Spanish folk music, I think.

In your case:

D Eb Gb G A Bb C D

with:

D --> Eb --> Cm --> D

for a cadence.

Your chord progression I'd interpret as something like:

Cm9/D; D; Eb; EbMaj7, Ebdim; Cm9/D; D; Cm, Cdim; D

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Here's (http://yala.freeservers.com/4scales.htm) an interesting site.

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Edit: Wait, what I've said above is incoherent.

It's:

D D# F# G A A# B# D

With:

D --> D# --> B#m --> D

for a cadence.

(B#m may sound unusual, but it sounds better than Ebb for a root chord, I think. It *is* confusing... @_@ )

@Sirdotdotdot: Yeah, what you said shows that pentatonic DOES have 4 steps, which means 5 notes, but lets not argue semantics.

@Eddy: I think you're right that it's some form of harmonic minor, but putting accidentals in the whole song is annoying...

@Dawnstorm: In a scale, you shouldn't have 2 of one letter in the same scale, so I'm not sure that's quite right in your scale. I'm REALLY confused on what you were trying to say, though, because Ebb wouldn't be the same as b#...*confuse*

@Sirdotdotdot: Yeah, what you said shows that pentatonic DOES have 4 steps, which means 5 notes, but lets not argue semantics.

I think you mean like four spaces (interval) in between the five notes (because if it's based on the C major key, it has the notes of C,D,E,G,A and thus it has 5 notes)? As you see, pentatonic's prefix (penta) means 5 in Greek or some other ancient language, so yeah... :heh:

@Dawnstorm: In a scale, you shouldn't have 2 of one letter in the same scale, so I'm not sure that's quite right in your scale.

Go to the link and check up on it. That's the scale. I'm not sure about the naming, though. If you find an alternative, I'd like to hear that. :)

Remember that anything we know about notation, scales etc. is just cultural convention. If the scale exists (i.e. if you can write music in it), and it violates the "rules", then the rules aren't fit to describe the scale properly.


I'm REALLY confused on what you were trying to say, though, because Ebb wouldn't be the same as b#...*confuse*

Sorry, for being unclear.

In a scale, you shouldn't mix "b" and "#"; which is what I originally did.

Ebb = D; which is the root. So using "b", instead of D-whatever (I don't know the name of the scale, really), you'd have Ebb-whatever. This is why I prefer to use "#", which makes the "C" a "B#".

Compare:

Ebb, Eb, Gb, G, A, Bb, C, Ebb

D, D#, F#, G, A, A#, B#, D


I prefer the "#"-version. But there may well be an established notation convention I'm not aware of.

No matter what the notes are called, though, they sound the same. ;)

Well, either you're breaking the no-two-of-the-same-letter rule, or you're breaking the no-sharps-AND-flats rule...

Well, either you're breaking the no-two-of-the-same-letter rule, or you're breaking the no-sharps-AND-flats rule...

Rules are dead but you aren't.:rolleyes: So yeah basically, a composition doesn't need to have any set rules, the composer can choose what to do themselves... :think: And now to think of it, your piece might just be in the minor scale with an accidental or something... :think:

Edit: Now that I listened once more, I think it sounds like a melodic minor scale starting on the subdominant with a diminished fifth... :\

No it's not melodic is it? Isn't it Harmonic? Anyway, I guess this has been kind of a pointless thread... It seemed like a good idea at the time!

No it's not melodic is it? Isn't it Harmonic? Anyway, I guess this has been kind of a pointless thread... It seemed like a good idea at the time!

Sorry, I tend to be a bit over-theoretical sometimes; but it did help me reflect on what a "scale" actually is:


Well, either you're breaking the no-two-of-the-same-letter rule, or you're breaking the no-sharps-AND-flats rule...

That's because the rules were established for major/minor scales, and the church scales, not non-standard scales.

It's like converting the three Japanese writing systems to latin letters. The result is Romaji, a new set of conventions for transcribing included.

You can notate the scale you used, but it won't be perfect, as the notation system hasn't been developed with this scale in mind. That doesn't mean the scale doesn't exist.

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If anything is pointless, here, it's not the thread, but my posts... :sweat:

In the end, what matters is how it sounds.

It's true that the end result is really the sound the composition has, but if you want to wtire it down as sheet music for others to play it back, it has to follow the rules of sheet music. And of course a given key can't have both sharps and flats in its key signature.

Now, if you want to experiment different sounds, I suggest you go not only into the oriental-sounding pentatinoc scales, but in the ancient Greek scales as well. The do sound weird, after all. I don't remember all their names (it's pure theory...), but this is how you create them. Start playing from D without adding any black notes (accidentals) until you reach the D an octave higher... and you have yourself the Dorian scale (I think that's the name). And you can do this with any of the seven white notes ... and each scale has its'own funky name, too!

Now, if you want to experiment different sounds, I suggest you go not only into the oriental-sounding pentatinoc scales, but in the ancient Greek scales as well. The do sound weird, after all. I don't remember all their names (it's pure theory...), but this is how you create them. Start playing from D without adding any black notes (accidentals) until you reach the D an octave higher... and you have yourself the Dorian scale (I think that's the name). And you can do this with any of the seven white notes ... and each scale has its'own funky name, too!

I recently found out that oriental (especially Chinese) scales aren't pentatonic, in fact, they are septatonic, just like normal scales, except they start on the dominant of the scale (say it's C major, so they play the C major scale starting on C)... :think: So yeah... I read that from a Chinese orchestration book, and it says that many western people misconcepts that point... Hope that also helped a little... ;)

It's true that the end result is really the sound the composition has, but if you want to wtire it down as sheet music for others to play it back, it has to follow the rules of sheet music. And of course a given key can't have both sharps and flats in its key signature.


Hey, you just made me realise a mistake I made. ^_^

I used key signature and scale interchangeably, but they're different.


Now, if you want to experiment different sounds, I suggest you go not only into the oriental-sounding pentatinoc scales, but in the ancient Greek scales as well. The do sound weird, after all. I don't remember all their names (it's pure theory...), but this is how you create them. Start playing from D without adding any black notes (accidentals) until you reach the D an octave higher... and you have yourself the Dorian scale (I think that's the name). And you can do this with any of the seven white notes ... and each scale has its'own funky name, too!

If I'm right, Deathraider went beyond even those. D Phygrian comes closest, but it would have a Dm chord, instead of a D chord.

Chord-wise it does work like a harmonic Gm scale, but the harmony looks nothing like that scale. Neither the melody, nor the harmony have a single "F"; all the "F"s are "F#", which is unusual for a Gm harmonic scale, which would use F in all instances, except when the F# is part of a D(7) chord.

Since the D note is so prominent, and the F# is so emphasised, I do think it looks rather like the scale I mentioned. (As I said, D-phygrian comes close, but it would have a Dm chord as its base, not a D chord.)

I would use the key signature of the Gm scale, though, to notate it.


say it's C major, so they play the C major scale starting on C

This is confusing. If they play the C major scale starting on C, it would be the C major scale, wouldn't it? Don't you, perhaps, mean some other note? :think:

Edit: Wait, you said dominant. Wouldn't that be G for C major? That would make it the Mixolydian scale.

Edit: Wait, you said dominant. Wouldn't that be G for C major? That would make it the Mixolydian scale.


:think: Nope, there's some other stuff added to it that I haven't read yet, Chinese theory is more complex than the totally laid out Western music theory...

Okay, to clarify a few things using the right terms this time.

1- Pentatonic, hexatonic, heptatonic, octatonic, etc... scales.

This refers to the NUMBER OF NOTES in an octave of a particular scale. They can be whichever: C D E G A or C F# G a b are both valid as pentatonic scales, since they respct the number of notes defined in the octave, in this case five. Actually I should say the NUMBER OF TONES instead of notes, which makes the Western scales (major and minor) heptatonic.

2- The Chinese scale is actually identical to the Western scale. It contains 12 semitones in an octave. It's just the frequency of the notes that changes, which gives it an "oriental" feel. If the number of tones is set to seven, then it's an heptatonic scale (I'm not 100% clear about the Chinese scale, though).

3- Complex scales



You can notate the scale you used, but it won't be perfect, as the notation system hasn't been developed with this scale in mind. That doesn't mean the scale doesn't exist.


I agree with this one. Instead of looking for the most unused of existing scales, why not create your own? There are an infinite number of possible scales, but most of them simply can't be written according to the Western notation of music. Think of the Indian scales which have well over 20 notes in an octave...

The best solution would be to create a "custom" scale. Don't impose any key signature, and play with accidentals. Debussy does that very often... why not do that as well? Just define the notes you want to restrain yourself to and create!

2- The Chinese scale is actually identical to the Western scale. It contains 12 semitones in an octave. It's just the frequency of the notes that changes, which gives it an "oriental" feel. If the number of tones is set to seven, then it's an heptatonic scale (I'm not 100% clear about the Chinese scale, though).




:think: Chinese scales doesn't have 12 tones, it's always whole, whole, half whole, whole, half, and whole step (at least for the 'universal' ones) as you see the notation is done with numbers (yes, I have experience with Chinese notation and all that :P ) and from the most complex scores to the pieces I play on zheng (koto's ancestor), there are no accidental... :think: I don't know about modernism though, because traditional Chinese music might not have accidentals, it doesn't mean you can't (I am using them for my koto concerto as well, and yes it's possible, it's just not widely used). :rolleyes:

Do you think it would be worse to just make a non-standard key signature? I found one that mostly works. It uses sharps and flats to make it work, but I can notate it in Finale? Is there something wrong with doing that instead of using accidentals for all the sharps or all the flats?

The Aeolian, Dorian, Ionian, Mixolydian, Lydian, Locrian, and Phrygian (haha, I'm proud because I didn't even have to look those up!) scales are called Medieval modes, BTW. They aren't Greek are they? The Greeks did have a complicated notating system that is said to be more perfect than our own, but apparently the Catholic church destroyed much of that sort of Greek Knowledge in the name of God. At least that's what my Choir teacher told us, and he knows a ton about Music History.

Edit: Yeah, if it's septatonic, isn't it just like a normal Western scale since it would have 7 tones?

Edit: Yeah, if it's septatonic, isn't it just like a normal Western scale since it would have 7 tones?

Not necessarily, as you see, Western scale starts on tonic and ends on tonic, but in non-Western scales, they might start on a different note and end on that note but also add accidental... I remember once encountering an arabic/quasi-arabic scale where it's in like in Phrygian mode but it had a flat somewhere and a quarter-flat in the second last note... :think: Scales are so confusing... @_@

Do you think it would be worse to just make a non-standard key signature? I found one that mostly works. It uses sharps and flats to make it work, but I can notate it in Finale? Is there something wrong with doing that instead of using accidentals for all the sharps or all the flats?

Well you could create a special key signature that'd save you the trouble of adding all those accidentals, but not with Finale. Finale's pretty much set for Western music, so free notation is out of order. Now, Noteworthy Composer has that free typing feature AND playback, too... but it's kind of buggy with Windows XP, so you might need a MIDI yoke to actually hear the playback. I personally haven't used Noteworthy much, so I don't know the details (at that time, I was bummed about the playback problem and just discarde the program, haha).

A special key signature would be very useful when creating MIDI tracks, but as for sharing sheet music, I'd recommend using a standard key signature or even no signature at all, just for uniformity (music notation is, after all, a language that has its own "grammar"/set of rules).

Well you could create a special key signature that'd save you the trouble of adding all those accidentals, but not with Finale.

Actually, you can. (on Finale not Printmusic... and all of those other ones.) Click on the Key Sig tool and right next to the key sig, click the scroll bar and there should be an option that says "Nonstandard"... I have no idea how to work it though.

Yeah, I know. I actually did take the time to figure out how it works, too.

But you people shouldn't be lazy about it though (especially if it was to be performed, the musicians will hate you to core, and I'm sure you wouldn't want that :whistle: )... Write out the accidentals! ;)