WARNING: some videos here are extreamly gory, showing animals being slaughtered.

No matter what people say, Peta has good intentions. I am now a vegitarian trying to go vegan because of many reasons, this being (http://getactive.peta.org/campaign/p2butterball) one of them (http://www.peta2.com/OUTTHERE/o-goriestvideo.asp).

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*throws up all the meat she ever ate* Oh my GOSH!... I'm gonna eat tofu from now on... I have to remember that vid everytime I get the urge to eat a hamburger or something..

The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

oh i've seen these on myspace.

poor things.

Meh. After seeing just how hotdogs are made, I don't think anything food related affects me.

Ok, even just reading it made me feel a bit *bleh*, so i decided against even watching the film. [I get freaked out easily, ok?] But i get the gist of it and i have to say..it sounds horrible.

i was eating when i saw that :O

the dudes thar are f**king sickos. im gonna hate mail the crap outta butterball. im thingking of printing screenshots of the video and handing them out to the general populace on a wide scale.

I wonder how the worker would feel if he was hanged by his legs and used as a punching bag. Those people are sick

Theres where ethics come in.

Many people see other organisms below humans. I guess I do too [for reasons that arent idiotic but hard to explain] but I would never do anything like that.

i dont mind vegetarians and vegans and stuff.

but i do mind organizations like peta and hardcore vegans who try to stuff their ideas down your fucking throat.
Oh, i eat meat. I'm sorry if you dont like that. But dont try to change me or try to scare me outta my habits.

Well Ashter, many people see eating meat as a horrific, stupid and wrong thing. If they have such feelings for it, of course they would try and stop you.

Thats like getting mad at those who try and stop murder. Obviously its bad, and many see eating animal flesh on its level.

I wonder how the worker would feel if he was hanged by his legs and used as a punching bag. Those people are sickThe turkey-hanging guy's wife is pregnant, you know. And he's got a three-year-old daughter. It's her birthday today and when he gets home, he's going to tell them that he's quitting the meat factory and going to take a desk-job. And then they're going to have chocolate cake.

But just as he's about to reach home in his cranky old car, some twenty year old animal rights activist rams him off the road. He's in ICU now, and his daughter is asking her mother why Daddy isn't home yet.

Well Ashter, many people see eating meat as a horrific, stupid and wrong thing. If they have such feelings for it, of course they would try and stop you.

Thats like getting mad at those who try and stop murder. Obviously its bad, and many see eating animal flesh on its level.


so if someone saw eating veggies as cruel and horrible, they could just go extreme and harass veggie eaters?

veggies are living things.
so what they dont have teh brainial capacity to understand feelings.
they're still living organisms.
and you could also argue that for bacteria.

you're killing bacteria.
im gonna run you over.

too extreme?
but you're killing bacteria.
you should be killed before you can kill the bacteria.
not extreme at all.

Muffin, I know perfectly well that YOU KNOW PERFECTLY WELL that what you said was just a stupid remark. To compare vegtables to an animal in the realm of feelings and making decisions is idiotic, and I know you know it. Your not that stupid.

*Takes a bite from his juicy hamburger has he watches the videos*

Muffin, I know perfectly well that YOU KNOW PERFECTLY WELL that what you said was just a stupid remark. To compare vegtables to an animal in the realm of feelings and making decisions is idiotic, and I know you know it. Your not that stupid.

You should play Star Control 2, when you meet the Supox, I hope they reach out of your monitor and bite your head off.

But seriously RD, people have been killing things and eating them since time immemorial, and since you don't believe in God, you'll know that we evolved and that our traits are designed to help us survive on this planet, now, if we were supposed to mooch around all day and eat grass, we'd be cows or somesuch with the teeth and digestive system to boot.

However we are by nature, given some teeth that do nicely for slicing up and tearing meat as well as chewing on the greens, we are omnivores (That's the one that eats both meat and vegetables RD), and RD if you'll look, there are many, many, many animals in the world that almost exculsively eat meat, are they evil? No they aren't they're simply doing what nature intended. Now I respect PETA's right to their beliefs, but I also hate eco-terrorists who think that they're better than the everyday person just because they're "enlightened" in way. Slaughter houses might not be pretty but then a leopord killing and devouring a wild beast probably isn't much nicer.

I never said meat eating is evil. Those animals havent even evolved to a point where they can be omnivores, meaning they have no choice. We, on the other hand, we have a choice. I still eat meat periodicly, but little when ever I do. Why? Because I want to stop as much unnecessary killing as possable. Also, a leopord kills because it has no other food source like stated above. It also plays on instinct. Humans dont have an instict to kill the first pig in sight and fry it to a crisp.

Would you kill your dog to eat? Would you kill your child to eat? No to both.
Now, would you have someone else kill a dog to have you/them eat it? Would you have someone kill their child for them/you to eat it?

Maybe we can get beyond a point where we can see we dont have to kill animals. Just because others do it doesnt mean we have to. I can give everyone a gun in the world, and because one shoots another person doesnt mean everyone else should. Get it? If we have evolved so far, why cant we just stop eating meat? Obviously its bad for us.

I never said meat eating is evil. Those animals havent even evolved to a point where they can be omnivores, meaning they have no choice.What about the other animals that are omnivores? For example: pigs, bear, foxes, raccoons, chicken, crows.


Because I want to stop as much unnecessary killing as possable.I expect you to be in the U.N. peackeeping forces in a few years.


Would you kill your dog to eat? Would you kill your child to eat? No to both.
Now, would you have someone else kill a dog to have you/them eat it? Would you have someone kill their child for them/you to eat it?Why wouldn't you kill your dog to eat, or have someone kill a dog and cook it for me? It depends on the breed of the dog, I guess, because the right dogs do make very tasty stew. A very nice appeal to emotions - so where are the appeals to logic?


Maybe we can get beyond a point where we can see we dont have to kill animals.Yeah, we don't have to kill each other to get a point across, too. Oh wait, maybe not.


Just because others do it doesnt mean we have to. I can give everyone a gun in the world, and because one shoots another person doesnt mean everyone else should. Get it?It goes both ways, doesn't it. Just because others choose not to do it doesn't mean we have to. Also, why wouldn't you come up with a better straw man? I can cook everyone a delicious juicy pork cutlet, and because some of us decide not to eat it, it doesn't mean that we all have to.


If we have evolved so far, why cant we just stop eating meat? Obviously its bad for us.Non sequitur. How far have we evolved from which species, so that we should just stop eating meat? There are many other things that we do that are obviously bad for us; how far should a species evolve before it should just stop doing certain things that are bad for itself?

We, on the other hand, we have a choice. I still eat meat periodicly, but little when ever I do. Why? Because I want to stop as much unnecessary killing as possable.

What your doing is really just a waste of willpower... You not eating meat is not doing anything to stop the meat factories, if your not going to eat the meat they produce, there are a million other people who will. If a large population stops eating meat, the factories will still produce just as much meat, kill just as many chickens, except the meat will go to waste. It will be your fault aswell because you are causing a killed chicken to go to waste, when you could very well fulfill its purpose and eat it.

In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with killing animals if you have a valid reason. For me, you are going to a) eat it and b) use for clothe or diguises in which case something else can't be used. As long as it's swift and nothing is wasted it's okay with me. I just hate it when people mount stuff.....It's up to them though. I would probably just take the skull from road kill and if I every decide to hunt then that too.

Personally, I hate the way they abuse the animals and that I don't agree with. But as Asuka said, you need more people than a few to stop it. Plus, I'd rather not do so for the future. If I ever learn to hunt and cook my own food I'll do so, to save a few animals from pain...Or atleast, no pain from me. Until then, I apologize to all the animals who suffer from idiots that don't know how to treat them.

PETA has done some stupid stuff but at least they have good intentions....

@RD: Ouch from the trees.

@RD: Let me ask you this- Do you feel that killing insects is a bad thing?

They have will, and people eat them; yet we consider them pests. Using your logic, we've been uselessly killing them for countless centuries. And Ashtr's point on vegitibles isn't all that bad. Plants are living organisms. They may not be intellegent, but they are an organized living thing. Just why are you seperating the two?

And I also love how you dodged Pifish's comment about an animal killing another animal. You didn't really explain WHY it wouldn't be bad. You simply went into the pathos of the situation.

All of what Peta does IS appeal to your emotions. You learn in writing that that is a logical fallicy. A logical fallicy is something you shouldn't take as true, because it manifests something that feels logical in your mind; even if logic is absent.

Let me make my point clear. You need to have energy to live. The only way to get energy is to convert it. Minerals are taken in by plants, plants get taken in by the herbavores, herbavores are taken in by carnivores, and Carnivores are eaten by other carnivores, waste of the carnivores bring minerals back to the earth.

They call that the circle of life. Watch the Lion King if you still don't understand.

that doesnt mean that its useful torture animals, regardless of their status in the grand circle of life.

how is killing them and eating them considered torture?

besides.
they sedate most of teh animals before they're slaughtered.



and the whole subject of other animals killing each other.

why dont you go yell at cheetahs and lions for eating them gazelles and stuff?
i mean.
the way they kill their prey is much more torture than what humans do.
the preys are eaten alive.
yeah.
we dont eat animals alive.

sooo.
go yell at a lion, peta people.

EDIT: god i have so many typos
x_x

First off... They don't sedate them. That adds chemicals to the meat that cannot be processed out (think of it like asprin. If you take it and die, the chemical resides in your body), and causes problems for the person that will eat the meat.

And Second off, it's not torture. It'd be torture if they stabbed the cows and pigs in the eyes, chop only a little of their leg off and then kill them. A quick knife to the spine, or a crack to the neck is reletively painless.

And Second off, it's not torture. It'd be torture if they stabbed the cows and pigs in the eyes, chop only a little of their leg off and then kill them. A quick knife to the spine, or a crack to the neck is reletively painless.

i kinda thought that the movie depicted just that. you know, the part where they tortured the animals before killing them.

i donno lol, i just watched the clip.

What your doing is really just a waste of willpower... You not eating meat is not doing anything to stop the meat factories, if your not going to eat the meat they produce, there are a million other people who will. If a large population stops eating meat, the factories will still produce just as much meat, kill just as many chickens, except the meat will go to waste. It will be your fault aswell because you are causing a killed chicken to go to waste, when you could very well fulfill its purpose and eat it.

Learn somthing about request and production [there is a more refined term for it, but I cant remember it currently].


@RD: Let me ask you this- Do you feel that killing insects is a bad thing?

They have will, and people eat them; yet we consider them pests. Using your logic, we've been uselessly killing them for countless centuries. And Ashtr's point on vegitibles isn't all that bad. Plants are living organisms. They may not be intellegent, but they are an organized living thing. Just why are you seperating the two?

And I also love how you dodged Pifish's comment about an animal killing another animal. You didn't really explain WHY it wouldn't be bad. You simply went into the pathos of the situation.

All of what Peta does IS appeal to your emotions. You learn in writing that that is a logical fallicy. A logical fallicy is something you shouldn't take as true, because it manifests something that feels logical in your mind; even if logic is absent.

Let me make my point clear. You need to have energy to live. The only way to get energy is to convert it. Minerals are taken in by plants, plants get taken in by the herbavores, herbavores are taken in by carnivores, and Carnivores are eaten by other carnivores, waste of the carnivores bring minerals back to the earth.

They call that the circle of life. Watch the Lion King if you still don't understand.

But see, theres a diffrence. No one grows insects, locks them up in boxed for most of their life, throws them around and pregnantes them through unatural means. And insects are diffrent from other animals in the sense that their population, compared to mammals, is multiplied by an obsured number. While a rabbit can have 12 bunnies in one year, spiders can have hundreds. House flies only live for an average of a day, butterflies are commen by the hundreds of thuosands.

My reason for not caring so much about other animals killing other animals is because we dont know how much of that plays on instinct. If is plays all on instinct it cant be helped. Our killing of other animals can be stopped on the other hand. Also, dont get all pissy over the fact that I didnt comment on everything someone said. I could have easily missed it as I did skip it. And it seemed you skipped watching the video. That is exactly what people did. I remember destinctivly in one part where a pig was hung by its front legs, its belly has a giant and long slit in it and blood was literly squirting out of it.

*didn't realize there were two links*

The one titled "Gorest video of them all" is just standard slaughter house gore. What do you expect when you kill something? Blood's going to come out, regardless of the method. After all, it's a business thing for them: find the quickest, slickest way to kill the animal and move on to the next.

I do have to say that the butterball chicken one (the video I missed) did have some scenes that were a little messed up. It's not really a laughing job.

Alas, I will eject myself from this debate. I don't see my mind changing to a vegan anytime soon.

A last comment to you, though you have left.

You have stated some things you concider animal torture. Yet, you claim those things in the video were "just standard laughter house gore." Huh?

...

This is the in two days time... in the same week that someone misread my post. Please allow me to clarify what I was saying.

Not once did I use `standard laughter house gore`.

What I did say was "standard slaughter house gore". Small error, but it makes all the difference.

To define what that means:
They sliced the pigs belly open. What were you expecting them to do? Have the pig in some white room and feed it drugs so the pig would go to sleep, slowly? Even if that were so, how did you expect them to remove all of the internal organs? At some point they need to remove the organs. I know for a fact that hanging up a deer to remove the organs is the fastest way to do it. Not the cleanest, but the fastest, and that's what the meat production companies are looking at: the ratio of output per unit time.

To be VERY clear:
I accept the fact that people kill animals, sometimes with excessive violence; and that's fine in my book. What I don't accept is people poking fun when killing the animals.

Muffin, I know perfectly well that YOU KNOW PERFECTLY WELL that what you said was just a stupid remark. To compare vegtables to an animal in the realm of feelings and making decisions is idiotic, and I know you know it. Your not that stupid.

Hehe...I remember reading an article from a magazine outside of one of those health food grocery stores in which a researcher claimed to have discovered that plants have feelings that can be detected electrically...apparently if you eat a salad in the presence of a lettuce plant, it goes nuts :P I'm thinking major creative license on the magazine's part...

A more serious recollection, however: I saw written on the sidewalk today at school: "Is animal suffering more important than human suffering?" (Strategically placed a little way off from someone handing out pamphlets advocating veganness or reduction of meat consumption)

Actually, I think you can get rid of a lot of objections to animal/animal product consumption the old fashioned way: by throwing money at it. Spend a little more money on free-range chickens and grass-fed (or whatever the designation is) beef, and buy your eggs from a friend with a chicken coop (easier said than done, I know) or local farmer, and suddenly the activists have lost a lot of their firepower. And they should be satisfied; if they're protesting factory farming practices, then we can make them happy by using economic pressure to revert (at least partially) to local farming practices. Of course, there are arguably better ways to spend our money (AIDS research? Disaster relief?), but hey, if it makes those loud-mouthed activists back down, I'll pay for my peace and quiet...

EDIT: "Good intentions"? (http://www.petakillsanimals.com/)

But see, theres a diffrence. No one grows insects, locks them up in boxed for most of their life, throws them around and pregnantes them through unatural means.http://www.bugsdirectuk.com/


And insects are diffrent from other animals in the sense that their population, compared to mammals, is multiplied by an obsured number. While a rabbit can have 12 bunnies in one year, spiders can have hundreds.And the humans?


House flies only live for an average of a
day, butterflies are commen by the hundreds of thuosands.Is the lifetime expectancy the rule by which you judge whether a being's life is important? What about the humans that are afflicted with terminal diseases?


My reason for not caring so much about other animals killing other animals is because we dont know how much of that plays on instinct. If is plays all on instinct it cant be helped. Our killing of other animals can be stopped on the other hand.You are sayin that our killing of animals aren't instinctive, are you? Our killing of animals is but part of our instince, to feed ourselves, to survive. Tell me if you instinctively do not eat meat. On the contrary, how many children instinctively eat meat? Killing animals or plants is the means by which we feed ourselves, as feeding ourselves is part of our survival instinct.


Also, dont get all pissy over the fact that I didnt comment on everything someone said. I could have easily missed it as I did skip it.So, why did you not reply to our comments?


And it seemed you skipped watching the video. That is exactly what people did. I remember destinctivly in one part where a pig was hung by its front legs, its belly has a giant and long slit in it and blood was literly squirting out of it.How did you know whom skipped watching the video? Also, you are ignorant of the standard and legal industrial procedures, and that is the reason why appeals to emotion work so well on you, especially those that feature 'shocking' images.

Learn somthing about request and production [there is a more refined term for it, but I cant remember it currently].

That has nothing to do with anything, over time it would matter, but for the first year thousands of chickens would go to waste. A company will only make what they will be able to sell, but if a company has already set their year supply then if they dont sell their stock it will go to waste.

http://www.bugsdirectuk.com/

1 And the humans?

2 Is the lifetime expectancy the rule by which you judge whether a being's life is important? What about the humans that are afflicted with terminal diseases?

3 You are sayin that our killing of animals aren't instinctive, are you? Our killing of animals is but part of our instince, to feed ourselves, to survive. Tell me if you instinctively do not eat meat. On the contrary, how many children instinctively eat meat? Killing animals or plants is the means by which we feed ourselves, as feeding ourselves is part of our survival instinct.

4 So, why did you not reply to our comments?

5 How did you know whom skipped watching the video? Also, you are ignorant of the standard and legal industrial procedures, and that is the reason why appeals to emotion work so well on you, especially those that feature 'shocking' images.

1 Come back and say somthing when an average human pops out 15 babies a year.

2 Not exactly. A house fly does live about 24 hours, but that along with that they can have many children. A human with terminal diseases dont live for 24 hours.

3 I guess your right. Its instinctive for a human to bite off a cows ear on sight of one.

4 I dont feel the need to reply to everyones comments. Saddly, the lime light is on me at the momment, and no one feels the need to say their opinions.

5 Now, dont get me wrong. I do think there is somthing diffrent about humans that make us a bit more special then other animals. Be it "free will" or the abilty to "choose" what we do, there is somthing. My reason for saying this is because murder. Human murder. To get shot in the head or strangled to death is less shocking to people then being hung by the arms and getting your chest slit open.
But dont you feel there is better ways? Those animals are slaughtered alive like that; if it must be done there has to be better ways.

Come back and say somthing when an average human pops out 15 babies a year.My point exact: this is why we eat animal babies instead of human babies.


Not exactly. A house fly does live about 24 hours, but that along with that they can have many children. A human with terminal diseases dont live for 24 hours.Both are as good as dead within a given time period, and the human consumes far more resources. Also, if your answer to "Is the lifetime expectancy the rule by which you judge whether a being's life is important?" is "Not exactly", exactly what is your answer?


I guess your right. Its instinctive for a human to bite off a cows ear on sight of one.If you do instinctively bite of a cow's ear at the sight of one, and think that it is the same with all of us humans, then I must regretfully inform you that we do not have this instinct to bite off a cow's ear at the sight of one. Is your sarcastic exaggeration a clumsy attempt at denying the simple logic of killing to eat?


I dont feel the need to reply to everyones comments. Saddly, the lime light is on me at the momment, and no one feels the need to say their opinions.If so, please do not be surprised to learn if some of us view your right to remain silent as a stubborn refusal to acknowledge the opinions of other people, and that consequently leads to some of us stubbornly refusing to acknowledge your opinions.


Now, dont get me wrong. I do think there is somthing diffrent about humans that make us a bit more special then other animals. Be it "free will" or the abilty to "choose" what we do, there is somthing. My reason for saying this is because murder. Human murder. To get shot in the head or strangled to death is less shocking to people then being hung by the arms and getting your chest slit open.
But dont you feel there is better ways? Those animals are slaughtered alive like that; if it must be done there has to be better ways.Of course there are better ways to slaughter animals, and only a small portion of the market buying pieces of slaughtered animals care for these better ways. Most of the market only want (shockingly) slaughtered hygienic dead animals, and only a small portion of the market want humanely slaughtered hygienic dead animals. Supply and demand. If there was a great demand for humanely slaughtered hygienic dead animals, surely someone would come to supply that demand and make a handsome profit. Until that particular demand appears, it would simply be more profitable to supply (shockingly) slaughtered hygienic dead animals.

Both are as good as dead within a given time period, and the human consumes far more resources. Also, if your answer to "Is the lifetime expectancy the rule by which you judge whether a being's life is important?" is "Not exactly", exactly what is your answer?

If the end is so apprent and humans take in more resources then we can give back, whats the point of our exsistance and what we do?


If you do instinctively bite of a cow's ear at the sight of one, and think that it is the same with all of us humans, then I must regretfully inform you that we do not have this instinct to bite off a cow's ear at the sight of one. Is your sarcastic exaggeration a clumsy attempt at denying the simple logic of killing to eat?

If its so logical, then why arent we all eating meat? The reason why is it isnt as logical as 1+1=2. There has to be a lot of thinking onto it, which I have done. People who eat meat usualy only do so because they were raised not to quiestion it; they were raised to think its just what we do. People who were raised to be vegitarians or just question it were raised to think about it. They were given reason to what they do and dont do.

I done feel like theres a need to answere the other comments you left because you basicly answered them for me. I have one question for you though; is it okay for humans to eat meat? Not in the sense like good and bad for our bodies, but moraly. Do you think were better then that?

is it okay for humans to eat meat?


why are homo sapiens the only creatures getting harassed for eating meat?

Dude...is it wrong that reading this kinda made me hungry?

I for one thing yes its ok for humans to eat meat.
And I agree with M on his video comments, on the first its just a bunch of asshole workers, its not the companys fault.

In the second some of the killings seem logical, only one I see as barbaric is this one scene where a guy throws a brick at a cow laying on the floor, you have to admit tho that that enviorment didnt seem half as "pro" as the others.

If the end is so apprent and humans take in more resources then we can give back, whats the point of our exsistance and what we do?I did assume that the end for both cases were definite, but I did not say that "humans take in more resources than we can give back". Furthermore, I asked you for the criteria by which you judged if a being's life was more important, and if lifetime expectancy was one of them, seeing as you used the lifetime expectancies to argue that the lives of insects are not as important as the lives of animals. Let me ask you again: by what criteria do you judge if a being's life is important?


If its so logical, then why arent we all eating meat? The reason why is it isnt as logical as 1+1=2. There has to be a lot of thinking onto it, which I have done. People who eat meat usualy only do so because they were raised not to quiestion it; they were raised to think its just what we do. People who were raised to be vegitarians or just question it were raised to think about it. They were given reason to what they do and dont do.I did not say that it is logical to eat meat. What I did say was that it was logical to kill to eat, be it an animal or a vegetable. What is the difference between killing an animal an a vegetable? How do you judge if a being's life was more important?


I done feel like theres a need to answere the other comments you left because you basicly answered them for me.This is not the Emperor's New Clothes, and if you cannot answer them with your own words, just say so and be done with it.


I have one question for you though; is it okay for humans to eat meat? Not in the sense like good and bad for our bodies, but moraly. Do you think were better then that?I see that meat-eating has become a morally tenuous position, ahahah. Very well, I will champion the meat-eaters in this discussion by claiming that it is not morally wrong to eat meat, simply because I think that eating meat has got NOTHING to do with morals. Again, I refer you back to a previous question which you did not answer:
How far have we evolved from which species, so that we should just stop eating meat? You have claimed that eating meat is "obviously bad for us", and now you have added a moral spin to your statement. I will now pose the same question again, with an added moral spin! How far have we evolved in the matters of spirituality, so that eating meat should become a question of morals? For the ease of understanding, here is the same question in a simplified form: Since when did eating meat became a moral question?

Kudos to Ashtr and Siul1313 for their above replies.

1 I did assume that the end for both cases were definite, but I did not say that "humans take in more resources than we can give back". Furthermore, I asked you for the criteria by which you judged if a being's life was more important, and if lifetime expectancy was one of them, seeing as you used the lifetime expectancies to argue that the lives of insects are not as important as the lives of animals. Let me ask you again: by what criteria do you judge if a being's life is important?

2 I did not say that it is logical to eat meat. What I did say was that it was logical to kill to eat, be it an animal or a vegetable. What is the difference between killing an animal an a vegetable? How do you judge if a being's life was more important?

3 This is not the Emperor's New Clothes, and if you cannot answer them with your own words, just say so and be done with it.

4 I see that meat-eating has become a morally tenuous position, ahahah. Very well, I will champion the meat-eaters in this discussion by claiming that it is not morally wrong to eat meat, simply because I think that eating meat has got NOTHING to do with morals. Again, I refer you back to a previous question which you did not answer: You have claimed that eating meat is "obviously bad for us", and now you have added a moral spin to your statement. I will now pose the same question again, with an added moral spin! How far have we evolved in the matters of spirituality, so that eating meat should become a question of morals? For the ease of understanding, here is the same question in a simplified form: Since when did eating meat became a moral question?



1 exactly. Exactly what I wanted to hear from you. Who gets to judge whos life is important and what rule is used? Its wrong to kill a human for food, so why not any other animal?

2 That was just as stupid as that one person who said "how do you know trees dont have feelings?!" to angelic [in the "if a tree falls, will it make a sound" thread, I think]. You and I know perfectly well that Vetgtables have no feelings. They grow, germinate and die. THE END. If there was more we wouldnt call people in comas vegtables.

3 Okay then. But as a notice, some of my opinions are hard to explain. Its more of a feeling type of thing, like trying to describe colors.

4 Since people began the question our weither human life is more important other animals life, or not. Buddha did so, and thats the earliest thing I can think of at the momment.


why are homo sapiens the only creatures getting harassed for eating meat?

Because I'm a human. Like I said before, we dont know if eating meat is instinctive for some animals, and others dont have a choice. Humans on the other hand, do have a choice.

And I will start harrasing other animals if a few of their species starting to become vegitarian, which I'm still waiting to see.


Dude...is it wrong that reading this kinda made me hungry?

I for one thing yes its ok for humans to eat meat.
1 And I agree with M on his video comments, on the first its just a bunch of asshole workers, its not the companys fault.

2 In the second some of the killings seem logical, only one I see as barbaric is this one scene where a guy throws a brick at a cow laying on the floor, you have to admit tho that that enviorment didnt seem half as "pro" as the others.

1 So its not the companies fault that their workers cant stop horsing around and stop doing unneeded things to living creatures? Hmm, crappy boss cant even take control over his workers.

That is based on opinion. I do think that is an animal must be killed, it will be. But there ARE, I stress the ARE agian, better ways. It may not be as productive, but I think you should do it more nicely, while taking in concideration, that your putting an animal pain.

Theres a few good movies and books out there that put some thought into how were treating other animals. Fantastic Planet and The Birds are good ones.

So its not the companies fault that their workers cant stop horsing around and stop doing unneeded things to living creatures? Hmm, crappy boss cant even take control over his workers.

That is based on opinion. I do think that is an animal must be killed, it will be. But there ARE, I stress the ARE agian, better ways. It may not be as productive, but I think you should do it more nicely, while taking in concideration, that your putting an animal pain.

Theres a few good movies and books out there that put some thought into how were treating other animals. Fantastic Planet and The Birds are good ones.

Im thinking theres alot of workers per supervisor... if you want measures to be taken maybe contact supervisors and question ammount of "checkups on workers" get facts.

All I know is that no company is gonna assign a "boss" per every 10 workers...

profit...is very important (this is a busines afterall) I gotta say personaly I cant think of a simpler and more effective way to kill an animal than to cut it and let it bleed. ony thing I can think of is to knowck it out before cut is made (but im guessing you would categorise that as uneccesary pain).

Instead of saying "stop eating meat save the animals"
say "lets put our heads together and think of a better way to kill them, someway that will keep everyone happy"

Did I ever say "everone stop eating meat or else I will see you as an asshole"?

There is one quote from a story that I think sums up how I feel.

"Don't talk rot, Whitney," said Rainsford.
"You're a big-game hunter, not a philosopher. Who cares how a jaguar feels?"
"Perhaps the jaguar does," observed Whitney.
"Bah! They've no understanding."
"Even so, I rather think they understand one thing-fear. The fear of pain and the fear of death."

Rainsford later is washed ashore onto an island where is is hunted [by a human] just like he would have done so to the jaguar.

I agree, sorry maybe I misunderstood post (or maybe im confusing you with someone else) it was meant more as a "general" opinion than to be yours.

I best go to bed before I further embarrase myself.

2 That was just as stupid as that one person who said "how do you know trees dont have feelings?!" to angelic [in the "if a tree falls, will it make a sound" thread, I think]. You and I know perfectly well that Vetgtables have no feelings. They grow, germinate and die. THE END. If there was more we wouldnt call people in comas vegtables.

If we were born 3-500 years ago, we would have "known perfectly well" that people of a different color have no feelings >.> Besides, care to define feelings for us in physiological terms?


Its wrong to kill a human for food, so why not any other animal?

It's wrong (according to most people) for a human to kill a human for food. It's merely unfortunate if a shark kills a human for food. So why shouldn't it be merely unfortunate if a human kills a shark for food? (Besides the fact that the people who do it are wasteful and only harvest the fins...)


1 So its not the companies fault that their workers cant stop horsing around and stop doing unneeded things to living creatures? Hmm, crappy boss cant even take control over his workers.

That is based on opinion. I do think that is an animal must be killed, it will be. But there ARE, I stress the ARE agian, better ways. It may not be as productive, but I think you should do it more nicely, while taking in concideration, that your putting an animal pain.

Agreed here. What we need to do is fully automate slaughterhouses. Then there will be no sadism, no unnecessary pain, and perhaps even less overhead for the business. So make the machines, and have the former workers merely operate the machines. All they need to know is that a cow goes in, and a hamburger comes out, just like the rest of us believe >.>

I'm not interested in the issue of animal abuse so much as in the issue of animal abusers. Tell me, is it "instinct" or "logic" that prompts a worker to sexually violate a turkey?
The problem lies in the existence of an occupation that feeds people's sadistic urges. We need to limit the need for these occupations as much as possible (eliminate them completely if possible) for the sake of the psychological well-being of the workers and for the general well-being of those around them. Believe me, I would not feel comfortable meeting someone who...er..."biblically knew" a turkey.

1 exactly. Exactly what I wanted to hear from you. Who gets to judge whos life is important and what rule is used? Its wrong to kill a human for food, so why not any other animal?Stop evading the question, Radical Dreamer. Let me remind you that you claimed that there is a difference between the life of different beings.


But see, theres a diffrence. No one grows insects, locks them up in boxed for most of their life, throws them around and pregnantes them through unatural means. And insects are diffrent from other animals in the sense that their population, compared to mammals, is multiplied by an obsured number. While a rabbit can have 12 bunnies in one year, spiders can have hundreds. House flies only live for an average of a day, butterflies are commen by the hundreds of thuosands.

If you cannot answer the question, retract your statement that there is a difference between killing insects and killing animals.


2 That was just as stupid as that one person who said "how do you know trees dont have feelings?!" to angelic [in the "if a tree falls, will it make a sound" thread, I think]. You and I know perfectly well that Vetgtables have no feelings. They grow, germinate and die. THE END. If there was more we wouldnt call people in comas vegtables.You call people in coma vegetables because you have no respect for them. Furthermore, are you implying that a being's life is only valuable when it has feelings?


3 Okay then. But as a notice, some of my opinions are hard to explain. Its more of a feeling type of thing, like trying to describe colors.Practice makes perfect.


4 Since people began the question our weither human life is more important other animals life, or not. Buddha did so, and thats the earliest thing I can think of at the momment.Yes, the Bhuddists do claim that if you eat meat, you will pay a visit to their Hell of Eighteen Floors (literal translation) before you reincarnate. You might even reincarnate into the animal that you like to eat most, to be eaten by other people. But since the Christians say that worshipping heathen idols is a sin worth an eternity in their Hell, and so do the Muslims, we're all going to Hell regardless of what religious beliefs you have, unless you belief that your deity of choice is more powerful than the others. Leave the religions out of this and come up with a logical argument.

1 If we were born 3-500 years ago, we would have "known perfectly well" that people of a different color have no feelings >.> Besides, care to define feelings for us in physiological terms?

2 It's wrong (according to most people) for a human to kill a human for food. It's merely unfortunate if a shark kills a human for food. So why shouldn't it be merely unfortunate if a human kills a shark for food? (Besides the fact that the people who do it are wasteful and only harvest the fins...)

3 Agreed here. What we need to do is fully automate slaughterhouses. Then there will be no sadism, no unnecessary pain, and perhaps even less overhead for the business. So make the machines, and have the former workers merely operate the machines. All they need to know is that a cow goes in, and a hamburger comes out, just like the rest of us believe >.>

4 I'm not interested in the issue of animal abuse so much as in the issue of animal abusers. Tell me, is it "instinct" or "logic" that prompts a worker to sexually violate a turkey?

5 The problem lies in the existence of an occupation that feeds people's sadistic urges. We need to limit the need for these occupations as much as possible (eliminate them completely if possible) for the sake of the psychological well-being of the workers and for the general well-being of those around them. Believe me, I would not feel comfortable meeting someone who...er..."biblically knew" a turkey.

1 Um, having nerves? A brain possably?

2 Did you know most of the leather harvesters throw away the cows body after skinning it? Hmm. And its unfortunate that a shark kills humans for food until they start to get a bunch of them, make them have sex to make kids and run a human farm in which they will make human burgers.

3 Oo, haha.

4 Its neither insinct or logic to do so. Its because the wokers damn parents didnt raise him/her to think things out, so he failed primary and secondairy school because of that and being bored. So he had to get a job killing birds, where he was also bored. So he stuck his finger up their vaginas to kill the bordom. Its idiocy and ignorance, which I guess in many people is instinct.

5 I say, fuck those workers; they are already crazy as it is, for you need to be to do suck things.


1 Stop evading the question, Radical Dreamer. Let me remind you that you claimed that there is a difference between the life of different beings.

2 If you cannot answer the question, retract your statement that there is a difference between killing insects and killing animals.

3 You call people in coma vegetables because you have no respect for them. Furthermore, are you implying that a being's life is only valuable when it has feelings?

4 Practice makes perfect.

5 Yes, the Bhuddists do claim that if you eat meat, you will pay a visit to their Hell of Eighteen Floors (literal translation) before you reincarnate. You might even reincarnate into the animal that you like to eat most, to be eaten by other people. But since the Christians say that worshipping heathen idols is a sin worth an eternity in their Hell, and so do the Muslims, we're all going to Hell regardless of what religious beliefs you have, unless you belief that your deity of choice is more powerful than the others. Leave the religions out of this and come up with a logical argument.

1 I know I claimed that, but does it mean you have to treat others lives diffrently, though the choice of not doing so is right there?

2 I feel that insects and other animals are diffrent on VERY diffrent levels. Hypocritical as this is, but I could actualy care less if you kill an insect. And I dont know what you mean by not answering the question. Oh, found one. The reason why I seperate the two, plant and animal [and I guess insect], is that plants do not think. They do not have brains. They dont cry when their baby is killed. The the fuck over it with those damn comments that are so stupid.

3 I guess I am. If you lay there in a state of no thinking and feeling, what is that? Life? Life isnt having a beating heart and not moving an inch for 10 year, not talking, not seeing, not LIVING LIFE. It sounds crule, but I think its true. Life is all the things on the world that you can experience and those experiences you have with them.

4 of course

5 I never said you will go to hell if you eat meat. All I said was Buddha was the first I could think of that has such an idea of life as that, which has nothing to do with his religion. I, too, share the same idea, but does that mean I am mouthing off Buddhist ideas? No.

This is do

1 I know I claimed that, but does it mean you have to treat others lives diffrently, though the choice of not doing so is right there?

2 I feel that insects and other animals are diffrent on VERY diffrent levels. Hypocritical as this is, but I could actualy care less if you kill an insect.I am satisfied by your admission of hypocrisy.


And I dont know what you mean by not answering the question.Wait, you do! Because you answered right after this.


Oh, found one. The reason why I seperate the two, plant and animal [and I guess insect], is that plants do not think. They do not have brains. They dont cry when their baby is killed. The the fuck over it with those damn comments that are so stupid.Since you have already admitted that you are a hypocrite, berating you for presuming to judge the difference of a being's life would be redundant.


3 I guess I am. If you lay there in a state of no thinking and feeling, what is that? Life? Life isnt having a beating heart and not moving an inch for 10 year, not talking, not seeing, not LIVING LIFE. It sounds crule, but I think its true. Life is all the things on the world that you can experience and those experiences you have with them.Yes, I see that you also presume to define life for the rest of us.


4 of courseGood.


5 I never said you will go to hell if you eat meat. All I said was Buddha was the first I could think of that has such an idea of life as that, which has nothing to do with his religion. I, too, share the same idea, but does that mean I am mouthing off Buddhist ideas? No.Did I say that you were mouthing off Buddhist ideas? So, do you think that eating meat is immoral? Please come up with a logical argument to support your opinion.

After all this talking, I really dont know what I think. I do think the way humans literaly harvest animals is very wrong. Eating meat, I'm still thinking, but as many said its the way life is. So I guess I dont oppose the eating of meat now but the way we get our meat.

Keep in mind that I am at least pleased that I am making some of you think on the morals of eating meat. Many people who eat meat dont even think of the action but instead mimic the actiosn of their parents, who probably did the same thing. By making you think, I hope I at least let you think things through.

After all this talking, I really dont know what I think. I do think the way humans literaly harvest animals is very wrong. Eating meat, I'm still thinking, but as many said its the way life is. So I guess I dont oppose the eating of meat now but the way we get our meat.

Keep in mind that I am at least pleased that I am making some of you think on the morals of eating meat. Many people who eat meat dont even think of the action but instead mimic the actiosn of their parents, who probably did the same thing. By making you think, I hope I at least let you think things through.This is very good. It was nice arguing with you, Radical Dreamer.

*Dark Bring has left the thread*

I am pretty squemish so i watched part of the video and felt sick at the imense cruelty and now i want to throw up or at least gag. the way we get our meat can be humane, we just need to kill the animals with mercy and let them live good or at least normal lives. i will never be a vegitarian (i'd probably die from the immense change) but it does make me feel sick to the stomach. i can live with us killing animals for food but i cant live with them being killed violentley.

This is very good. It was nice arguing with you, Radical Dreamer.

*Dark Bring has left the thread*

I cant tell if theres a hint of sarcasm in that.

HOLY SHIT!!! I cant beleive im saying this but im going vegie for now on!!! Hey i may be part mexican but after seeing THAT!! Im going vegitarian. I hate animal abuse. *U do NOT want to kno how they sluaghter horses dude!* BRING ON THE TOFU!!

1 Um, having nerves? A brain possably?

2 Did you know most of the leather harvesters throw away the cows body after skinning it? Hmm. And its unfortunate that a shark kills humans for food until they start to get a bunch of them, make them have sex to make kids and run a human farm in which they will make human burgers.

3 Oo, haha.

4 Its neither insinct or logic to do so. Its because the wokers damn parents didnt raise him/her to think things out, so he failed primary and secondairy school because of that and being bored. So he had to get a job killing birds, where he was also bored. So he stuck his finger up their vaginas to kill the bordom. Its idiocy and ignorance, which I guess in many people is instinct.

5 I say, fuck those workers; they are already crazy as it is, for you need to be to do suck things.

1. Insects have brains. Just about every animal has a brain (the sponge being an exception, I think). Plants and bacteria may not have nervous systems that work electrochemically, but both respond to stimuli. Take the Venus' flytrap (sp?) as an example. That plant clearly responds to touch. Liken it to what happens if you stick your finger too close to a dog who doesn't like you. How about vines? If you keep your finger still long enough, their tendrils will reach out and twist around you. If you stand still long enough, some critters may also climb on you. And come to think of it, you can come up with some pretty graphic descriptions of what happens to unwanted bacteria...
And as for plants not crying when their children are killed: Many fish will eat their own children the next time they meet them, provided they're still small enough to be bite size. When birds find that one of their chicks is unusually weak, they'll peck it to death or push it out of the nest. Lemmings go on purging runs that end up with thousands of them over the side of a cliff. And what do you think really happens to the runt of the piglets in the wild? It's usually not Charlotte's Web, to be sure.

2. The shark also seems to only get away with the victim's arm...
And I believe it was killer whales (or was it dolphins) who would "harvest" large schools of fish and use their tails to shock them to keep them in place so that everyone could get their fill?

4. Ah, and Guantanamo Bay? Like it or not, there's a little bit of the sadist in all of us. If we are placed in the wrong situations for long enough periods of time, that dark corner of our minds will grow. A university study once placed "average" (not just people with bad upbringings) people in a prisoner/guard test scenario and isolated them to examine their behavior. In just 1 week, these average people had degraded into the instigators and victims of torture. There's even literature on the subject: think Lord of the Flies. It's easy to dismiss this behavior as something "someone else" would do, and that we're not like them. But in reality, we have a lot more in common with them than we would like to think; we just have the good fortune of being shielded from the situations that would expose the parts of our mind we'd rather not admit existed.

5. See 4.

*Dark Bring has returned to the thread!*




PETA Mistakenly Targets Alaska Church (http://www.fredericksburg.com/News/apmethods/apstory?urlfeed=D8LJVREG0.xml)

ANCHORAGE, Alaska

The pastor at Anchorage First Free Methodist Church was mystified. Why was the activist group People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals chastising him? No animals are harmed in the church's holiday nativity display. In fact, animals aren't used at all.

People, however, do dress the parts - Mary, Joseph, the wise men, etc. The volunteers stand shivering at a manger on the church lawn in a silent tribute to Christmas.

The Rev. Jason Armstrong was confused by an e-mail this week from PETA, which admonished him for subjecting animals "to cruel treatment and danger," by forcing them into roles in the church's annual manger scene.

"We've never had live animals, so I just figured this was some spam thing," Armstrong said. "It's rough enough on us people standing out there in the cold. So we're definitely not using animals."

Jackie Vergerio, PETA's captive animals in entertainment specialist, said her organization tracks churches nationwide that use real animals in "living nativity scenes."

Seems the confusion started with the church's choice of phrase. PETA flagged Free Methodist's display as a "living nativity," and indeed, that's how the church describes it on its Web site.

To PETA, that means animals.

"Those animals are subject to all sorts of terrible fates in some cases," Vergerio said. "Animals have been stolen and slaughtered, they've been raped, they've escaped from the nativity scenes and have been struck by cars and killed. Just really unfathomable things have happened to them."

In the letter to Armstrong, Vergerio shared some sad fates of previous nativity animals _ like Brighty the donkey, snatched from a nativity scene in Virginia and beaten by three young men. Ernie the camel fled a creche in Maryland but was struck and killed by a car. Two sheep and a donkey had to be euthanized after a dog mauling at a manger scene in Virginia.

Free Methodist's display is peaceful, Armstrong said. The congregation erects the stable. Members spread straw and don costumes. Some even dress as manger animals.

"We have some puppet camel things we put out," Armstrong said. "We have a cow hood thing that a person will wear that actually just looks spooky."

The volunteers stand beneath a brightly lit electric star as Christmas music fills the frosty air. They don't even speak.

"No one's come by protesting or thrown bloodstained fur at us or anything," Armstrong said. "We even use a plastic baby."

Maybe PETA finally discovered that people are animals too, and are expressing genuine concern for those poor people who are forced to sit out in the cold and wear animal costumes against their will.

And possibly be raped.

For all those people who've turned vegetarian by watching that, you are IDIOTS!!! Why? because standard animal slaughter houses do not do that sort of thing to animal carcasses. It's just a video that has happened to have caught one of those non-standardised practising ones. It is DESIGNED to make people give up meat.

Also, from a biological viewpoint, you need certain animal fats from the meat in order to maintain a healthy lifestyle because the human body is incapable of producing them by itself. You may be able to get your protein from tofu, but you need fats from animals. If you're deficient in them, you could end up impairing your brain development. Memory formation is harder. Basically you can become more of an idiot.

Vegetarians don't tell you this stuff because they don't know! (shock horror)

I'm not saying all vegans are stupid, just that you might not end up being at your full potential. Of course you get some really smart vegans. Just reasons for being a vegan sometimes are really stupid.

I'm a member of peta. People Eating Tasty Animals

In all seriousness, the only way to generate enough meet to feed the people of todays society is through large-scale animal farming and slaughterhouses. Everyone can't just go hunt for their dinner. There may be issues with the way those slaughterhouses operate (as shown in the video, many of them have inhumane practicies), but those are usually the exception and not the rule.

Meh. After seeing just how hotdogs are made, I don't think anything food related affects me.

yeah... I agree... except for excrement I won't eat excrement.