For some time now I've been thinking to re-open Ichigo's Religion Discussion. Although Angelic did lock it for various reasons, so I won't just open it for that wouldn't be right. Therefore I'm making this poll whether you, the members of Ichigos, want to keep the Religion thread up and running or not. Personally I think the discussion went pretty well, and even though I didn't participate much personally I enjoyed reading it.

So yeah, if there is a majority of members who want to bring the religious debate back to Ichigos, then voice yourself in this thread. I will close this poll when a clear majority of votes have been cast.

Oh, and the votes will be anonymous unless you want to reveal yourself. It is preferred, though, that you explain why you want it locked/opened.

I would support the religion thread being opened. With all respect to Angelic, I think it’s a bit unfair to have a poll consisting of 5 people who probably did not even participate in the thread give an opinion. Furthermore, many of the participants and myself were not given an equal opportunity to participate in this poll. Why should a mere 5 votes determine the outcome of the religion thread? I’m sure I could get 5 votes to 0 for the thread from the members of Ichigos if it were at my leisure to do so. As such, I feel at the very least this poll shall provide everyone with the opportunity to give their views on the thread, rather than just 5 random people, and I am glad that it may possibly determine the outcome of the thread.

I believe that I and the other participating members of this forum can easily agree to refrain from insults. I believe that whether the thread covers the bible or not should be left to the people discussing it. It’s still religion. If everyone is happy discussing it, why bother discussing something else? There are no rules in the thread stating that someone can’t talk about another religion. It’s only that a lot of the people there have no knowledge or interest in that religion.

The fact the thread discusses mostly Christianity is not harmful so long as insults and flames are not used. I don’t believe it is fair to say it’s pointless just because one person does not find interest in it. Surely if the other members or I found it pointless, we would not continue on debating. It is done only because we enjoy the debate. And even if the point is not apparent to one person, does not mean that there is no point at all. I suppose what I’m trying to say is: if people want to focus on a particular subject in a thread, why not let them so long as it’s not hurting anyone? Even if there is no point, if people are enjoying it, why not let them?

And so for these very reasons, I’d kindly request that the thread be opened so that I may discuss and debate religion with others in a civilized manner. I’m sure others share similar thoughts to me. I make this post not to shoot anyone down, but to defend some of the claims that have been made about the thread to show logic for keeping it open.

I am against reopening the religion thread.

First, it will turn into a "Christian-bashing" thread again. How is it a religion thread if only ONE religion is discussed/argued about/flamed?
Second, it was just a flame-the-other-person-because-of-their-religion thread.
Third, the same people kept posting without bringing any meaningful discussion to the table.

Based on those reasons, I am against creating a new/reopening the religion thread.

And for extra, here is a logical argument to support my hypothesis.

Reopening the religion thread will cause flaming.
Flaming is bad.
Therefore, reopening the religion thread is bad.

i agree with ^^

all religion threads are is:

Person A: "Im a christian"
Person B: "you suck"
Person A: "you should be christian too or God will strike you down"
Person B: "oh go fuck yourself with a cross"

and so on

if anyone can find me one post in a religion thread that doesnt come under those 4 categories, i congratulate you

I don't think it should be opened. And if it somehow is, then anyone who makes a single flame comment should be banned from the thread instantly.

a agree to some extent with ^. Except I want it open again!!! I do think that some of the posts there should have ben given infractions...

Here's what I think:

1) If someone has such a problem with the ongoing discussion, then you're not forced to read it. It's such a shame to abolish the whole concept for those people who actually want to participate in religious debate.
2) We now have infraction points which we can give out to those who intentionally fuck things up. Or we can just temporarily ban people.
3) I gotta take a shower... so I'll be right back.

liked point 3 the best... *joke*

yes I agree. those who dont have anything to say bout religion and just insult people shouldn't be there. I mean, it has more insults than any other area in the forum. How has this happened? (actually it is quite ironic)

I believe that everything will be fine if we all remember to respect another's beliefs. Calling someone's beliefs or way of thinking as bullshit, for example, should be strongly discouraged. I believe there are better ways to discuss the beliefs. Debate does not have to be a flamewar, it can just be taking and clashing logical points against each other. If people really don't like the discussion, then they don't have to participate! It would certainly be no different than as if the thread were closed, as they aren't benefiting from it either way, so what does it matter? No one is forcing you to participate.

I believe the same thing Nightmare is talking about was said at the beginning of the Religion(2) thread... Look how that turned out.

I would like the thread to be reopened. I'm not religious, per se, but I do enjoy a good debate about various religions. I believe the thread should be reopened as an experiment. At least give it a chance. Believe it or not, there are some peope out there who enjoy a debate of that nature.

It's probably better for all of us if we don't. I've had a lot of conversations with friends of mine about religion and, well, we've never actually agreed on anything. It was okay since we were friends already and if we hadn't been then there would have been this really awful.. thing.. Flaming would have happen no matter what. Religion is a very touchy subject because it's hard to make people accept other beliefs if been they've tought to understand ones that are so very different for their whole life. I've found many people have difficulty understanding me, I've had difficulty understanding them and I've had many incidents where people have tried to convert me via internet. I absolutely hated it. Trouble with us is we're so stubborn and people are always going to each other "WHY CAN'T YOU SEE IT THE WAY I DO?!?!?!?". There a lot of stuff creating even more tension right now, if you remember that fairly recent incident where some Norwegian (I think?) newspaper posted a very controversial political cartoon that offended Muslims by the hundred thousands, followed by awful riots and things.
FLAMING IS INEVITABLE. We really don't want to have enemies where we never had any, do we? I'd hate it if there were actually people on these forums who actually hated each other just because of some silly argument. We're not supposed to agree on religion, it would impossible. We already have these silly arguments where people flame each other on what instrument they play! (something about tuba players... anyone remember?) Which is completely retarded. If we can't agree on that, we won't be able to agree on this. If we argue and swear like drunks at each other about what instrument we play, then sure as hell we are going to swear like drunks at each other about this. I'd rather not have so much tension around here... Can't we all just get along and be friends...
Please do not re-open thanks~

I believe that everything will be fine if we all remember to respect another's beliefs.

The problem about that, is no one really does. Religion is a very tender debate topic mainly because everyone has a different view on it. No one christian believes in the same way. No two Muslims pray the same.

For example (in regards to Christianity and witchcraft):

Say we have someone that practices the Craft (witchcraft or magic to refer to it in slang) and is a Christian. Most Christians will say that you can't be Christian and a Pagan at the same time. The Craft user will say there's nothing wrong with it. Bible-goer quotes a phrase that is about equal to law that says that you cannot host such powers without worshiping the devil. Craft User quotes their own bylaws saying that you don't have to practice devil worship to use the Craft. Humanist comes in and says its pointless to debate the rules, so long as you're doing it for your own concept of good. Agnostic comes in and leaves because the debate is too thick...

So I ask you, who's right?

I bet you not one person will answer with the same thought.

Sure, you can house a certain amount of professionalism, but that only goes so far. There's always going to be a stubborn person that will refuse to compromise (bad word when talking religion, but the only I could think of).

As much as I like Religion as a topic of debate, I also see that it will only cause conflict.

A couple of reminders:

256784

flaming is evitable!

Infract those who are meanies!

Good night

So I ask you, who's right?

I bet you not one person will answer with the same thought.

Sure, you can house a certain amount of professionalism, but that only goes so far. There's always going to be a stubborn person that will refuse to compromise (bad word when talking religion, but the only I could think of).

As much as I like Religion as a topic of debate, I also see that it will only cause conflict.

One of the main reasons I enjoy debating so much is that the other person does not give in to compromise. To me, debating helps me research Christianity and become better educated as to how they think. It makes me have more support for my side, and makes me a more persuasive person over all. Who's right? Everyone is, and that's the beauty of it! That's just a bigger challenge for me.

Of course people aren't going to agree. That's why I enjoy it, so I can strengthen my beliefs, and they theirs. If people aren't able to refrain from verbal attacks simply because they are debating a set of beliefs with someone else, I dare say how well they will react to being instructed to do things they don't agree with at work, or forced to research papers they don't believe in at college. Fact is, religion isn't the only thing that people can disagree with.

Though I agree it can be a tender subject, I don't believe it's all that hard to refrain from the use of verbal attacks, exspecially when the majority of religions look down on such things.

If I never had a debate with Asuka or any of the other Christians, I would know so much less about the bible! I had to research the bible for quotes to support my statements, and I asked them to do the same. But I see your point all the same. Even if it is easy for me to refrain from attacking others, it may not be so for others.

I think that the religion thread should be reopened. It was a good thread. The Christianity bashing was anything but bashing. It was just those who think that the religion wasnt good and those who beg to differ. Christianity is a big religion and there will allways be people talking about it weither people want to or not.

But if such flaming ever starts, I think a dedicated mod should PM the person to stop or else [hell, anyone should do that].

Or make a religion3 thread and one christianity thread.

Several others thought about doing that in the last religion thread. It was quickly resolved as unnecessary.

But why not? It would help the constant jibbering about Christianity and let the subject go.

It was an executive decision made by a mod and admin

Frankly, I don't really care if it opens or not. But Angelic had a vote in the IRC, which I took part in (the voting I mean). He gave us a legitimate reason to close it and I voted yes to close it, and I still stick with my former decision

This has turned into the replacement for the religion thread, haha.

I'm against re-opening the thread. Nothing is gained and nothing is lost. Your beliefs are your own. Besides, no other subject on this forum is as controversial as this one, with all the locking and unlocking. Doesn't that tell us something? If you are truly interested in a particular religion, there are plenty of other resources available. It's that simple.

Edit: The only successful religion threads I've found on other sites are those where a member creates a topic about a particular religion s/he wants to learn more about, or has some questions s/he wants clarified. Anything but a debate.

Frankly, I don't really care if it opens or not. But Angelic had a vote in the IRC, which I took part in (the voting I mean). He gave us a legitimate reason to close it and I voted yes to close it, and I still stick with my former decision

I agree with Chris. I also took part in the IRC voting and I thought Angelic gave good enough reasons to close it.

I mostly agree with Nightmare.

I think that this will provide a great opportunity for people to revise their apologetics, to practice what they preach in the face of flaming adversity, and to measure the distance their religion has taken them.

Thought: I have seen in some places there are sub-forums and threads marked as anarchy. No help if your an idiot and flames are a blaze.

*should know what im getting at...*

Thought: I have seen in some places there are sub-forums and threads marked as anarchy. No help if your an idiot and flames are a blaze.

*should know what im getting at...*

Don't think Ichigo's is that kind of forum. :mellow:

Well, I ment that for just the religion thread.

But that'd be a speical sub-forum for just religion... That's a bit excessive for a Sheet Music Request Forum.

Nevertheless, only one religion was primarily discussed in the religion thread, and that was Christianity.

Learn to break free from one religion and discuss on others. If you argue that no one bothered to break from the discussion of Christianity, then you will be proved wrong because I had placed questions upon other religions which people did not even bother to discuss about.

If you don't have knowlege of the religion, thats okay. Talk about another religion you DO know. I know that everyone is not isolated and knows atleast one other religion and its basic points.

The religion thread's primary purpose is to discuss about religions. To decide on re-opening the religion thread isnt just because people flame at eachother. There were no miscellaneous discussions on other religions, therefore the thread's purpose was mostly lost.

Because of what has happened to the thread and why it was closed is the reason why I object to reopening the religion thread. Its been hinted time and time again to mention other religions in the thread, but it was mostly ignored.

People keep saying a good reason it shouldnt be reopened is because all the chat was about Christianity.

Most of those people didnt try heard enough to sway away from it in the first thread. Some in the second.

Hiei, I know for a fact you joined in on many occasions to talk about Christianity. Your sounding a bit hypocrytical.

That was because they were simply ignored.

I tried to bring in Humanism, and all I got was a slight afternote by C0Y0TE. I wasn't welcomed to the table, unless I talked about christianity.

I say let's start the blood bath again. Seriously. The religion thread was good times.

People keep saying a good reason it shouldnt be reopened is because all the chat was about Christianity.

Most of those people didnt try heard enough to sway away from it in the first thread. Some in the second.

Hiei, I know for a fact you joined in on many occasions to talk about Christianity. Your sounding a bit hypocrytical.

Refer to Mies's last post.

Yes I did post about Christianity in the majority of my posts, but I did attempt to break away at it. I expressed my ideas on Christianity, and when I felt it was enough I posted some ideas for discussion on other religions.

I say let's start the blood bath again. Seriously. The religion thread was good times.You are after my very heart.

If I never had a debate with Asuka or any of the other Christians, I would know so much less about the bible! I had to research the bible for quotes to support my statements, and I asked them to do the same. But I see your point all the same. Even if it is easy for me to refrain from attacking others, it may not be so for others.

lol, there was the point where I couldn't actually find a quote to support me because in the end I was just going off of what I've been taught and led to believe was in the bible, I've never actually sat down, read a bible, understood parts and been able to reference from it. What i did was i took what i have learned from my parents and the priests i have had, looked for it in the bible and then posted it. I got really stumped on certain parts because i really believed in what i was saying but i was having alot of trouble finding it in the bible >.< I think Nightmare stumped me quiet a few times, and i of course was too stubborn back then to accept it. But all is well mate

Though I myself would be tempted to post in the religion thread but I really don't know much about other religions except christianity and like, judaism? I'd be too scared to post about another religion because I wouldn't want to make a fool of myself by posting an ignorant remark about another religion. I find myself getting really heated when it comes to religious debates because the same points are brought up over and over again just using different references and in the end everyone is too stubborn to admit that they are wrong. In most debates there is normally someone who triumphs using different points and attacking the other person's points, but in this its just stating our points, attacking theirs, and then starting all over again.

If your scared of making a fool of yourself you will never learn inthese cases. Just say what you know and if its wrong then someone will correct you. Simple.

I think Mies has an idea. Make a thread for diffrent religions.

All I have to say is... it's a bloody internet forum. If you're too scared of voicing your opinions here, where are you going to? In real life?

Actually I was against making a christian specific thread (I see that as a form of Elitism), but I can see how it would be a good thing. Then again, that still doesn't solve a thing; the original thread was basically a Christian Relgion thread.

We're missing one key person in debating the reopening of this thread: Angelic. I know he doesn't have an overall good outlook on this topic, but I do believe that he needs to have a word in this, seeing how it was Angelic that locked and banned all religion threads from the second one on.

The only points Angelic had were ones you guys have already stated. He has nothing new to bring to the table that you guys haven't already pointed out. You guys keep stressing that the religion thread is dominated by a debate from Christianity, and that because of this no real conversation takes place.

For one, I think this is bullshit. I think that so little discussion is to be had about other religion due to lack of education, that the one religion where most people are familiar with rules the discussion. But let's do an experiment. Since your main points are that the only thing being discussed is Christianity and that there is too many flames going on, let's make two threads. One for debate and one for religion.

I'm willing to bet that the religion thread will get little to no activity after a brief period of time, and that the Christian thread will get lots of attention. Doing this will also resolve many key issues, and is a fair compromise to both sides. Benefits are:

* The religion thread is no longer ruled by the topic of Christianity
* As it is merely discussion, no flames will be had in the religion thread
* People do not have to skip through posts centered on debating Christianity
* People can choose whether or not they wish to see the debate
* Debators (Atheists and Christians) are happy

There you have it. Problem solved. Making another thread will completely satisfy both sides of this poll, and everyone can be happy. Those who don't think they can post without flaming can simply....not post in the debate thread. Those who wish to discuss other religions can do so without fear of it being lost in the myrid of posts discussing Christianity.

I see no reason why we can't have another topic just for debate. The "it was a decision made by an administrator/moderator" offers no good reason. It's ridiculious to say that we can't talk about the religion Christianity in the religion thread, but then turn around and say we can't make another thread about it for it because we already have a religion thread.

So why not make this compromise? Everyone can be happy. Those who wish to discussion religion can discussion religion, and those who wish to discuss Christianity can discuss Christianity. If Angelic and any other atheists thinks that Christians are being ignorant, then he/she can simply not post in the thread and let those who do enjoy the debate continue on. I just don't think there is much to talk about in the religion thread without Christianity.

Why does everyone else think of this "compromise"?

It's ridiculious to say that we can't talk about the religion Christianity in the religion thread, but then turn around and say we can't make another thread about it for it because we already have a religion thread.

Please don't put words in my mouth. I never said that you couldn't talk about Christianity in the original thread. I simply stated that it was a Christian thread. I made no notion that you are NOT to talk about christianity in a religion thread, just the fact that it was domonated by Christianity--which is perfectly fine; Christianity is a religion after all.

My apologies, I did not mean to make it look like I was putting words in your mouth-I know you never said that. I should have been a bit more careful with my wording-sorry! I just meant it was ridiculious for anyone (3rd person) to say such a thing, and though noone has yet, there have certainly been some implications-by the fact that a moderator/administrator refuses the idea, and then people get upset by Christian discussion taking control in the topic.

We're missing one key person in debating the reopening of this thread: Angelic. I know he doesn't have an overall good outlook on this topic, but I do believe that he needs to have a word in this, seeing how it was Angelic that locked and banned all religion threads from the second one on.


The only points Angelic had were ones you guys have already stated. He has nothing new to bring to the table that you guys haven't already pointed out.Angelic may or may not have anything new to bring to the table, and I would like to hear what he has to say on this matter again, even he has not changed his mind in the slightest, mainly because I am very against acting unilaterally without his approval.

All I have to say is... it's a bloody internet forum. If you're too scared of voicing your opinions here, where are you going to? In real life?

I'm not scared of voicing my opinions, I'm just saying I wouldn't post there because I know nearly nothing of the subject and if I did post something it would probably be wrong. I never meant scared literally.

Two threads would actually work very well. We all know that the Religion Thread would die after a few weeks, but that stops people from bickering about how the religion thread is just flooded with christianity. Its a very good compromise. There are certainly more advantages than disadvantages here, so I say we make a christianty thread and a religion thread.

Open it back up. Let the kids have their fun.

The only problem I have with the bicameral religion threads is that then I couldn't debate Wiccans, and that is good times.

Metaphysics........... ::snore:: >^..^<

It seems we've gotten enough votes now for me to say this. Although there are more people wanting the thread back up, there are still a significant number of people who want it closed. This means that there are a lot of people against the re-opening of the Religion thread. And also considering Angelic's former decision(s) to close it, it will remain dead for now.

Indeed there were a significant number of votes against re-opening the religion thread, but what of the compromise I suggested (in actuality, just emphasized the already offered idea) of opening a thread specifically for Christianity and one for religion? For such a large number of votes going towards both sides, wouldn't it be reasonable to perform such a task so to best satisfy the 39 members who voted?

With 21 votes for it, why not? Not a single person has mentioned anything about this compromise, and as such can it not be taken that there is no problem or fault in it? I strongly feel that if the majority of the people here wish for the thread to be re-opened, at the very least a compromise could be made.

I'm sorry to say this but no.

Cause whe you talk about religion you always end up with someone saying something stupid. And then a fight breaks out. So sorry but no.

what about... if you voted no in this topic, dont post in the religion thread...

yeah, only the people who want to debate seriously, not convert people or corrupt their views, can post on it? all others, measures will be taken against them.

I'm sorry to say this but no.

Cause whe you talk about religion you always end up with someone saying something stupid. And then a fight breaks out. So sorry but no.

So if you're a person who can't refrain from fighting or attacking, then you have the option of not posting. If you don't like it when people say something stupid, then you have the option of not reading. The thread would be specifically for debating. Or perhaps are you saying that people such as yourself are incapable of avoiding a thread not meant for you?

*Walks in late and screws everything up*

Religion debate... ahahahahahahaha

No, seriously. No one keeps the score, there is no right or wrong, everyone chucks in their viewpoint and (sort of) tries to force it on others but no one else listens (or rather, just retorts with more garbage that's most likely going to be ignored by the members of the first party and so on).

It ain't debating. Not a proper discussion either. It's just spam.

And so although I'm quite happy to sit by and and laugh at all the cultured and mature intellectual mudthrowing and hairpulling, really, its a good thing it isn't coming back.


*While on the point.. why isn't this thread closed too if the decision's been made?

Indeed there were a significant number of votes against re-opening the religion thread, but what of the compromise I suggested (in actuality, just emphasized the already offered idea) of opening a thread specifically for Christianity and one for religion? For such a large number of votes going towards both sides, wouldn't it be reasonable to perform such a task so to best satisfy the 39 members who voted?





Not going to happen. Why seperate Christianity from other religions? If people want to talk about other religions, then they are welcome to do so here - and if no one replies, then there is no interest in it. Simple as that.

I fail to understand. You cast a vote. It was voted to be open; yet it remains shut. What is the point in voting if when you overcast you are dissapointed anyway?

Because if there's such a large number of people who want it closed, they want it closed for a reason. Besides, there are more No-votes than Yes-ones right now.

yes... my post is flawed.

(Sowwy)

I suppose its not going by first-past-the-post and instead the "list" system vote?

Most excuses to keep it closed is because of fighting etc etc. Well you don't need to participate in thread if you don't like it. I'm going to go make a thread about an anime I like, if you don't like that anime you don't have to post. :mellow:

This is ridiculous. Threads in here are meant for discussion. If you don't like the religion thread then don't go in it.

Christianity is quite a valid religion, why single it out?

This is ridiculous. Threads in here are meant for discussion. If you don't like the religion thread then don't go in it.


Simple to say. Think about the situation though.

You stumble upon a topic saying RELIGION for example, and you have no interest in it so you pass it. However, people in that thread might not express ideas relevant to the topic (or too much of one specific region, and therefore also rejects the topic theme), and that needs to be regulated. Regardless, people will look at it even if you tell them not to. I doubt there wouldn't be a time when your parents told you not to look at porn but you went and did it anyway just for the heck of it.


Yes, I was thinking of using spoilers, but then I decided to just make it ambiguous because some people (like myself -.-') know it's a spoiler, but would open it anyways; the curiosity is otherwise insatiable.

I've never purposely viewed porn.

... That's besides the point.

The way how I look at this thread is this:

I've said this a couple of time now... This forum was formed for one specific purpose: to provide a community of transcribers for anime/game sheet music. Is it really nessesary to have a thread about religion in a sheet music request forum? There are several, SEVERAL forums made specificly for the discussion of religion. Why not go where you can debate with experts? They call this "Check your Source". It's just not logical to do something like this here. I know that's what I would seek out... Not some nobody from a sheet music forum...

This is why I was the 3rd person that voted in the IRC for closing the religion thread. It's not nessesary, and there's conflict in keeping it; regardless of how constructive it is.

But all of the above is besides the point. One adminstrator, and one moderator have turned down the offer.

Simple to say. Think about the situation though.

You stumble upon a topic saying RELIGION for example, and you have no interest in it so you pass it. However, people in that thread might not express ideas relevant to the topic (or too much of one specific region, and therefore also rejects the topic theme), and that needs to be regulated.
:huh: Meaning to say you personally don't like what's being discussed in the thread, whether it be too much on Christianity or something like that? I say punish the people who flame in the topic rather then close the thread and deprive the people who do want a good discussion.

Regardless, people will look at it even if you tell them not to. I doubt there wouldn't be a time when your parents told you not to look at porn but you went and did it anyway just for the heck of it.
No one is telling them to look into the religion thread. It's their own choice. And if they're intolerant of other people's beliefs or are silly enough to get insulted by some flamer, then sorry for them.

I've said this a couple of time now... This forum was formed for one specific purpose: to provide a community of transcribers for anime/game sheet music. Is it really nessesary to have a thread about religion in a sheet music request forum? There are several, SEVERAL forums made specificly for the discussion of religion. Why not go where you can debate with experts? They call this "Check your Source". It's just not logical to do something like this here. I know that's what I would seek out... Not some nobody from a sheet music forum...
As you can see, the forum has branched out into other areas for discussion. If we are able to discuss what we think of "emos" in society then why can't we discuss what we think of religion?

As you can see, the forum has branched out into other areas for discussion. If we are able to discuss what we think of "emos" in society then why can't we discuss what we think of religion?

Because religion is a bit more serious of a topic/debate, and people tend to get more offended or fustrated when one messes with his/her religion or tries to refute or question its text/beliefs/ideas. This tends to cause flames and drag things offtopic to one certain religion. Then it becomes the holy battle of who knows more Christianity, and arguing over its text.

This is a religion thread, not a Christianity debate team. If you want to complain, then, like Mies said, go to a forum that cares. It would be nicer to debate over a bunch of professionals than debate it here.

Because religion is a bit more serious of a topic/debate, and people tend to get more offended or fustrated when one messes with his/her religion or tries to refute or question its text/beliefs/ideas. This tends to cause flames and drag things offtopic to one certain religion. Then it becomes the holy battle of who knows more Christianity, and arguing over its text.

This is a religion thread, not a Christianity debate team. If you want to complain, then, like Mies said, go to a forum that cares. It would be nicer to debate over a bunch of professionals than debate it here.
If people are going to get offended and start flaming in the thread, then they should be punished. It really isn't the thread's fault if someone goes in there and gets insulted. As I said before, people should stay out of the thread if they're sensitive to it.

Last I checked, Christianity is a perfectly viable religion. Pretty dominant round the Western world too. No wonder it's discussed the most.

Why should the religion thread be closed because you personally don't like it when people talk of Christianity too much? You can try and start to debate about a certain religion within the thread if you want, but if people don't want to discuss it, perhaps you should be the one to go to a forum that cares.

First of all, look at the title of the thread. Its a religion thread. Yes you can express your opinions on christianity however you want, but if it goes to the point where every little thing is christianity, then the relation to the thread is irrelevant.

I dont mind people debating endlessly about it, just include more religion discussion in it for apple's sake. It IS a religion thread after all.

This forum was formed for one specific purpose: to provide a community of transcribers for anime/game sheet music. Is it really nessesary to have a thread about religion in a sheet music request forum? There are several, SEVERAL forums made specificly for the discussion of religion. Why not go where you can debate with experts? They call this "Check your Source". It's just not logical to do something like this here. I know that's what I would seek out... Not some nobody from a sheet music forum...

So if I understand you correctly, M, I could delete the Game, Anime, General Entertainment, General Discussions, Everyday Chatter, The Secret Mod cave (woops :ph34r: ), Composing and Site Announcements forum because they don't have anything to do with transcribing? You could aswell go to a gaming forum to discuss gaming, no?

catholic here in germany only ,
in thailand buddhist

I see your native language isn't English...

... That's besides the point.

The way how I look at this thread is this:

I've said this a couple of time now... This forum was formed for one specific purpose: to provide a community of transcribers for anime/game sheet music.

Why do you say that? On what basis do you have to support your assumption that this forum was made specifically for trasncribing music? If anything, I see this forum dealing in a very, very small minority with transcriptions of music. Even if we accept your assumption on why this forum was made, it is by no means merely a place for requesting music as of now. Rather, people come here to discuss their interests in a variety of things, commonly anime and video games, but as well other things. If this forum was only for transcriptions, it would hardly be as active as it is now.


Is it really nessesary to have a thread about religion in a sheet music request forum? There are several, SEVERAL forums made specificly for the discussion of religion. Why not go where you can debate with experts? They call this "Check your Source". It's just not logical to do something like this here. I know that's what I would seek out... Not some nobody from a sheet music forum...

First off, as Noir7 pointed out, are any of the topics here neccessary? There are plenty of forums for games, anime, and roleplay as well. Secondly, it's not like I came to this forum looking for religious debate. As I'm sure many others have found their way for this, I came looking for sheet music and from this joined the forum. It just so happened that a religion thread came into being during my stay on this forum, and I enjoyed debating with the Christians very much. There is nothing illogical about that.

I think your logic is flawed, for if it is illogical to have and participate in a religion thread, then all the anime threads, general discussion threads, art threads, and such I have seen you and other's participating in are pointless as well, by the fact that a forum specifically meant for it can be found elsewhere.


This is why I was the 3rd person that voted in the IRC for closing the religion thread. It's not nessesary, and there's conflict in keeping it; regardless of how constructive it is.

I disagree completely. As mentioned previously, by your logic no thread here is neccessary except those pertaining to musical transcriptions. There is no conflict in keeping it. What conflict is there in keeping it? What extra work are required by moderators for this thread that they aren't required to have for the rest of the threads?


But all of the above is besides the point. One adminstrator, and one moderator have turned down the offer.

But an administrator and moderator do not themselves compose the forum. Shouldn't it be what the people of the forum want, rather than the convenience of what the adminstrator and moderator want? How would you feel if the threads your personally liked the most as well as participated in the most were closed simply because the adminstrator didn't like it? I realize full well that this forum isn't a democracy, but I don't think that should discredit members to the point to where they have no say in these matters whatsoever.

Perhaps I should ask you, do you feel that an adminstrator/moderator should act in accordance to what he feels is best for himself, or in what is best for the members of the forum? If you agree with the second of the two, than surely you must feel to some extent that members should be able to give some input to this situation.(No, I do not think Angelic acts for himself. I know he is a really supportive member of this forum and even if people disagree with what all he does, he helps out a lot in this forum.)

As well, we do have a moderator for the religion thread. M, if any of my post seems offensive to you, then I apoligize, and would ask you point out where so that I may avoid doing so in the future. I mean you no harm, and wish only to peacefully debate this matter with you, as the religion thread was an important thread to several people including myself, and one of the few threads here that I enjoyed reading and responding in.

This is turning into another religion thread...

Why do you say that? Aren't we supposed to be discussing the possibility of opening the religion thread?

wow i didn't know a simple religion thread was such a big deal. I looked at the old religion thread and it was basically just a Christianity thread, but isn't christianity a religion? I don't get why only discussing Christianity would be bad, forums are for discussion, if no one makes a post (or replies to one) about another religion then that just means no one wants to discuss it. A lot of people (including me) learn about religion from debates like that, I mean seriously, what better way is there to learn than hearing both arguments of opposing sides? I can understand that people would want it closed on the case that it is just spam with one person saying "The Bible is true" and another saying "No, the Qu'ran is true." and going back and forth with blabber like that. But there were some people I saw like Nightmare, Dark Bring, Sir Jaso, Kitsune Rose, Darksage, and Hiei who actually used their heads and made logical arguments and questions. Why should that be stopped?

listen newbie! You have NO idea!

listen newbie! You have NO idea!

You are in no position to be calling names, musicangel820 appears to be showing more intelligence in their posts than you. :mellow:

... i wasnt calling names. I have been told (by 50 different people) that new member means newbie. Like auto means automatic. I wasn't calling names :cry:.

I know what the religion thread was like... i managed to read it all...

Perhaps I should ask you, do you feel that an adminstrator/moderator should act in accordance to what he feels is best for himself, or in what is best for the members of the forum? If you agree with the second of the two, than surely you must feel to some extent that members should be able to give some input to this situation.(No, I do not think Angelic acts for himself. I know he is a really supportive member of this forum and even if people disagree with what all he does, he helps out a lot in this forum.)

No, but I also think a moderator should not do what is best for the members of the forum, as well (if that makes any sense at all). I can't really put it to words... Something like an entity that is filtering what comes in and out; regardless of personal/public thoughts. A censor in a way... That's how I picture a moderator. Not some Omipotent (no pun intended) being that tells things how they are supposed to be, nor someone that follows Lazze-fare (my french spelling skills are close to null).


As well, we do have a moderator for the religion thread. M, if any of my post seems offensive to you, then I apoligize, and would ask you point out where so that I may avoid doing so in the future. I mean you no harm, and wish only to peacefully debate this matter with you, as the religion thread was an important thread to several people including myself, and one of the few threads here that I enjoyed reading and responding in.

I never found any of the posts overly offensive to myself, though I am not certain about others (and it may be my secular-like practice that makes me think some posts are offensive, but are okay in nature). I didn't feel any pain or sadness when I did a quick little segue in the second religion thread on Humanism and it didn't take off. To be personaly honest, I didn't expect it to.

I feel that when it comes to religion, that it would be best to ask a professional or someone that is well knowlaged in the subject, rather than someone here. I mean, after all, this is the reason why Religious heads exist: to spread information about the religion. If you really want to ask what I feel about this, I'd say ask all your questions to your local religion head (pastor, scholar, ...), rather than going to a forum; for reasons found above.

But I'm gussing that someone'll attack (bad word for it) me saying that's a personal opinion. While it is heavy set as my own personal opinion, I don't see how the reverse of my thought as logically correct.


As to what Noir said: You got me red handed. I can't go against that, other than to say everything bloomed from the concept of Sheet Music (i.e. to allow members to regular the forum, thus creating respectible veterans that aid in forum information guidance).

too much politics!

This truly IS another religion thread. lets stop argueing (AND DON'T SAY YOU WEREN'T) and lets just make a decicion!

(That was directed at everyone by the way)

Jaso... I'll ask you nicely. Please stop spamming in this thread. If you don't have anything to contribute (other than comments that don't progress the maturation of the thread) please don't make the post.

too much politics!

This truly IS another religion thread. lets stop argueing (AND DON'T SAY YOU WEREN'T) and lets just make a decicion!

(That was directed at everyone by the way)

THIS is why the Religion thread wont be opened, because of the same excuse. People just can't restrain themselves can they? Maybe half of the votes that want to have the religion thread closed are because of the same excuse. :mellow:

Fine, I think that people should be able to express themselves on a forum and that removing any kind of forum is suppressing their ability to do so... I know! how about we split the forums? We could have a Christian forum, Hindu, Islam ewtc. how about it?

Fine, I think that people should be able to express themselves on a forum and that removing any kind of forum is suppressing their ability to do so... I know! how about we split the forums? We could have a Christian forum, Hindu, Islam ewtc. how about it?

More then half of them will not get any attention. But while were at it why don't we just make a forum for every different genre of music and type of video game? :mellow:

1) Too much time and effort to do so
2) Why do it? It promotes segregation amoung users (this is why we don't have Azn pride or similar threads).

I can't help but feel you are being faeceacious... It was only a suggestion. Why do I get criticised all the time?

Well, I think that it being open is a good thing... an opportunity to practice religion. Perhaps if it was monitered a little more closely this time, infractions could go to those who offend by overstepping the criticism mark...

I can't help but feel you are being faeceacious... It was only a suggestion. Why do I get criticised all the time?


Its probably because you don't view the previous posts to this thread. Your idea was mentioned numerous times before, and again I reply with this quote.


Not going to happen. Why seperate Christianity from other religions? If people want to talk about other religions, then they are welcome to do so here - and if no one replies, then there is no interest in it. Simple as that.

While I agree with Noir7 completely in the logic, I have to disagree with the reality of the situation. It's not as simple as that. I've seen innummerable complaints in this forum about people not being able to have any discussion on religion because of Christianity debates dominating the thread. While I think this is complete bullshit and that noone is responding because there is no interest, knowledge, or contributive material to reply with, the fact still stands that there are people using this as or in part for the reason they chose no.

So then, this idea would eliminate that *problem* people have, give people a choice to enter it knowing what to expect (as in, a debate or discussion), and all the while prove that there really isn't much interest in other religion and that it was just a waste of time to even seperate the threads. This will soon become even more apparent as the religion thread dissappears in the forum and the Christianity thread remains.

Besides. It's not like a moderator can't merge the two when people finally realize this.

M, I understand about filtering in and out, and keeping the forum clean. But there is a difference, a very fine difference, to what is spam, flaming, or being a nusiance and what constitutes a productive thread. For example, if I were to dislike Love Hina and think that the discussion on it was pointless and a waste, by your logic it would be perfectly fine for me to close it.

I feel the religion thread is just like that. Even though Angelic and the moderator think it is pointless and such, there is still a significant number of people who don't, and were enjoying the thread. Closing it with a reason that it focussed too much on Christianity (which was the main reason, though in second came flaming) is like me closing the Love Hina thread because people are talking too much about Keitaro. Really. Who cares? It's not hurting anyone, and people don't have to read it. If there are people to enjoy it, let it be.

First of all, look at the title of the thread. Its a religion thread. Yes you can express your opinions on christianity however you want, but if it goes to the point where every little thing is christianity, then the relation to the thread is irrelevant.

I dont mind people debating endlessly about it, just include more religion discussion in it for apple's sake. It IS a religion thread after all.
Back to what I said, Christianity = biggest religion in the world.
Christianity is a religion.
It's a religion thread, for discussing religion.

Fair enough?

No. The thread's purpose was to discuss Religions. Not christianity. If no one cared to post debates on another religion, the thread is automatically changed to christianity, and thats not what the thread is for.

I'm new here and came across this thread by accident. But to say the least i think that a thread on religions would imply a place for discussion on any religion. thus if the main amount of disscussion came from the religion, Christianity i do not see why it would be considered a thread on Christianity and not religion. Because as pointed out Chirstianity is a religion.


furturmore while i am not taking sides on whether to have such a thread since i have only just joined and thus have not seen the effect of the closed thread. i would say it is a sensitive topic, as religion is to certain people a very personal issue thus remarks made could rub people the wrong way. and as some have pointed out in the course of this disscussion the forum on if i may say naiively that it was on music. ichigos.com always represented a place about music to me, thus a religion thread can come as quite a far-fetched topic since, in general, not only is it extrememly sensitive as it leads some people's way of living and not just say interest or hobby (like gaming and music) and the fact that it is very serious topic that not all can agree to. which i suppose is a good reason to discontinue the thread since thing smay get out of hand or make people unhappy even to those who were aware of what thread they are contributing to.

however on the other hand, as some have argued, a thread is for disscussion and while you can ask all the religious questions to your respective religious teachers i have personally found it quite usesful to interact with those who i guess you could say, not so well informed on religion or have studied it in full detail - you do get quite useful insights that i stress is up to the person to intepret as he/she likes

Not to mention flaming occurs all the time and well, isnt that more a reason, to then explain or debate your point? afterall look at what is going on outisde the net - unrest due to certain cacritures of a religion being published. i think atleast here on the net we can discuss and learn from one another with the probabilty of resolving any problems that arise less physically? but through a mediated disccussion?

so if a religion thread was to be once again be put up, i suppose to prevent problematic occurences why not have a disclaimer saying those who enter the named thread bear in mind that certain things may not sit well with the reader, along those lines? and to allow discussions to flow more than one direction, why not promtoe various religious thoughts to be placed in the same discussion where all religions can be discussed, say how they are similiar in teaching?

No. The thread's purpose was to discuss Religions. Not christianity. If no one cared to post debates on another religion, the thread is automatically changed to christianity, and thats not what the thread is for.
So you think people should be forced to talk about other religions?


Closing it with a reason that it focussed too much on Christianity is like me closing the Love Hina thread because people are talking too much about Keitaro

I completely agree. Good analogy.

No. The thread's purpose was to discuss Religions. Not christianity. If no one cared to post debates on another religion, the thread is automatically changed to christianity, and thats not what the thread is for.

Where, Hiei, did it say that you may only talk about one religion for a certain period of time? Christianity is a religion. The thread is meant to talk about religion. Just because you don't like the fact that it talks mosty about Christianity does not mean that the purpose of the thread is being defeated. If no one cares to talk about other religions, then it means that noone has an interest in other religions.

The way you say it, the thread should talk about each and every religion equally. I think this view is incorrect. For one, Christianity is a dominate religion among most forum members, in terms of belief and knowledge. It only makes sense that Christianity is talked about the most. If you want to talk about another religion, you're free to do so. But if you get no replies, people probaly just don't care.

The thread is for religion. Christianity is a religion. Whether we talk only about Christianity, or we talk about a variety of religions like Buddhism, Shintoism, Wiccan, and so forth, it's still religion. That's it. Simple as that. You even quoted Noir7 on it...are you changing your mind?

Where, Hiei, did it say that you may only talk about one religion for a certain period of time? Christianity is a religion. The thread is meant to talk about religion. Just because you don't like the fact that it talks mosty about Christianity does not mean that the purpose of the thread is being defeated. If no one cares to talk about other religions, then it means that noone has an interest in other religions.

The way you say it, the thread should talk about each and every religion equally. I think this view is incorrect. For one, Christianity is a dominate religion among most forum members, in terms of belief and knowledge. It only makes sense that Christianity is talked about the most. If you want to talk about another religion, you're free to do so. But if you get no replies, people probaly just don't care.

The thread is for religion. Christianity is a religion. Whether we talk only about Christianity, or we talk about a variety of religions like Buddhism, Shintoism, Wiccan, and so forth, it's still religion. That's it. Simple as that. You even quoted Noir7 on it...are you changing your mind?


No, I still stand by my own ideals on how the religion thread should be. Though discussing every religion equally is quite impossible, atleast discuss about some other religion other than christianity.

And the reason they don't make reference to other religions is because they are either completely ignorant to it (like Mohism), choose not to learn it, or their own religion tells them not to learn of it.

Thus we are posed with our first problem. People are willing to learn about their own religion, but not other religions.

To do a quick organization of recent debate points (leaving out the problem of flaming), I'll list out a tree, starting with the main argument (and a little paraphrased to make it easier to read).

Religion thread is too christian related.
Christianaty is a legal religion
But it should not overpopulate the "Religion" thread. Chrisitanity isn't the only religion
We understand. So let's create a Christian thread.
That's excessive and un nessesary, because that's saying chrisitianity is superior to other religions.

Every point listed above is very correct, and obviously shows us just why the poll is a close tie.

No, I still stand by my own ideals on how the religion thread should be. Though discussing every religion equally is quite impossible, atleast discuss about some other religion other than christianity.

Why should we, if no one is interested? Even though you may want to, why should everyone else be held to your ideals, simply because YOU feel it is right? If people don't want to discuss it, or have no interest in it, wouldn't that make the posts quite bland and promote spam?


To do a quick organization of recent debate points (leaving out the problem of flaming), I'll list out a tree, starting with the main argument (and a little paraphrased to make it easier to read).

Religion thread is too christian related.
Christianaty is a legal religion
But it should not overpopulate the "Religion" thread. Chrisitanity isn't the only religion
We understand. So let's create a Christian thread.
That's excessive and un nessesary, because that's saying chrisitianity is superior to other religions.

I believe if people are going to complain about Christianity dominating the thread, they shouldn't complain about making a new thread for Christianity. The logic for this is absolutely absurd. A solution that can make everyone happy is offered, and yet the same people who don't want Christianity dominating the thread are now complaining about having a thread for Christianity outside the thread. This makes no sense at all! Pick one or the other, people!!!

Christianity is not superior to other religions, it only dominates the other religions in terms of conversation because it is the most widely known religion among the people of this forum. If people can't realize this and are going to proclaim that it's making Christianity appear as a superior religion, than perhaps they should not be participating in the thread(s) in the first place.


Every point listed above is very correct, and obviously shows us just why the poll is a close tie.

Indeed, which gives all the more reason to carry out with the compromise. For over 40 votes, that's a lot of people in disagreement. Surely, M, you can agree with me that providing another thread specifically for Christianity can make both sides happy, disregarding the irrational claims I have just discussed.

Surely, M, you can agree with me that providing another thread specifically for Christianity can make both sides happy, disregarding the irrational claims I have just discussed.

Havingg another thread for christianity when there is already a religion thread would really say a lot about the forum, or at least imply that its christian dominated. What about Islam, or Buddism threads, or would those become locked?


Oh well, i'm for it being openned up again, but because I never really participated, I'm not going to vote.

There were definately not 49 members who participated in the thread, and even more so less who were active, so please do not feel as though you do not have a say. If you believe it should be opened, than vote for it. This poll is to get an opinion of the community, which you are a part of (go you!)

Though I'll agree that having another thread may imply this forum is Christian dominated, it does not imply superiority to the Christian religion. And by Christian dominated, I don't mean that most members are Christians so much as that most members are knowledgable in the religion Christianity.

The reason for having the Christian thread would not be so much to show that it dominates the forum as much as it is to allow discussion for other religions like the ones you mentioned. If Buddhism or Islam were to be debated with as great a frequency as Christianity was in the place of Christianity, I'm sure there would be a thread for that instead. We don't need a thread for Buddhism or Islam, because these religions are not discussed even close to the amount that Christianity is discussed, and so they can be openly discussed in the religion thread.

We don't need a thread for Buddhism or Islam, because these religions are not discussed even close to the amount that Christianity is discussed, and so they can be openly discussed in the religion thread.

So you demote other religions because they were not discussed enough, and instead propose a topic about Christianity separate from the Religion thread?

Yeah I agree with Hiei tts really unfair on other religions. Everything should be equal, especially on a delecate supject such as religion...

So you demote other religions because they were not discussed enough, and instead propose a topic about Christianity separate from the Religion thread?

Demote? Hardly! I believe you are viewing this a little bit differently than I. I view it useful to have a Christian thread so that more room to discuss other religion may be more likely (hence promoting discussion of other religion.) Furthermore, your complaints about each religion not being discussed a bit more equally could be resolved.

If there is a high volume of discussion geared towards Christianity, that surely is an indicator that people want to discuss Christianity. If there is a low volume of discussion for Buhdissm, than people probaly aren't very interested in it. Your problem lies within the fact that a high volume of discussion is involved in Christianity. So why not just make a topic regarding the religion in which many people wish to discuss it, to allow the ease of discussion for other religions? This is demoting anything.

What does it matter to you if there is another topic specifically for Christianity? If anything, you should see this as a good thing! Then, you'd be able to discuss the other religions "equally" as you wanted, and everyone can be happy. The people who love to talk over and over about Christianity can without interferring with your "equal" discussion of religion.

I apologize, Hiei, but I just can't understand your logic. Really, I'm trying, but it doesn't make any sense to me to complain about talking about Christianity too much amongst other religions but then complain if it's discussed outside other religions. Would you please help me to understand you a bit better? I don't see how this possible solution could bother you.

I agree with Nightmare. Yes, Christianity is more popular. So what? Why should that bother you?

If it is seperated then people wont be timid about trying to discuss other religions because they don't want to interfere with the ongoing Christian discussion.

Why would that mean that Christianity is any better? It's just the most talked about. Even if you don't allow others to talk that much about Christianity then they still wont talk about other religions because they a) don't care or b) are too ignorant to take part.

I fail to see why having a sperate thread is a bad thing. Even if it does imply that Christianity is more important than the other religions or whatever. So what? Then it is. Maybe it isn't. Interpret it whatever way you like. Let people talk about it if they want. Why does this bother you? If it seperate threads then you can talk about other religions without being drown or having to sift through the Christian discussion. Not everything is equal. You have to learn to except that too. Doesn't mean you have to treat it like dirt either.

I'm with Nightmare as well. Having a sperate thread does not nesseserily equate superiority, though it might seem like it. Also, domination does not equal superiority. It's a given that most Western Civilisations are mostly Christian; what's wrong with that? There are more people here who wish to talk about Chrsitianity, and having a seperate Christianity thread leaves more space to discuss other religeons.

but it is unfair to make a christian thread without also making a Hinduism, Islam etc.

Why don't we make a religion forum (section) under General Discussion? That way we could meake Catholic threads and Evangelic threadds and Hindu threads etc.

Hmm...actually, that's a good idea. Why don't we make a religion subforum/section?

Because there's no need for it. There isn't enough interest in religion to make a new forum for it. A single thread about Religion did serve its purpose before, why make a whole forum for something that could be discussed in a single thread?

You know what? I'm going to take a chance here. I'm going to put the Religion thread back on, and see how it goes. If it's going well -- then no harm has been done, if not... we'll never have a discussion about religion again on this forum.