Well, since more people voted to have this topic, I decided to start one. So yeah, here's the topic. Everyone can contribute. I'll start with mine. I would assume a basic knowledge on music theory, so if you are unclear, please ask..


Cadences
I really don't want to say this as an insult, but I have noticed that in some compositions posted in this forum, cadences were hardly used, and if they were, at the incorrect places. Hence, my first tutorial on cadences. (I would assume that you already know how to identify chords from Roman Numerals, since in most of the compositions, you guys seem to understand chords)

Very much like speech and conversations, there are punctuation marks in music. These punctuations are called cadences and they are used at the end of each phrase, which analogically speaking is much like a sentence. There are generally four types of cadences, Perfect, Plagal, Half(also known as Imperfect) and Deceptive(also known as Interrupted).

Perfect Cadence (V - I)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v131/betahebat/perfect.gif

A perfect cadence is a V - I progression. It is known as an "Authentic Cadence" to Americans, and there are two types - the Perfect Authentic Cadence (PAC) and the Imperfect Authentic Cadence, IAC (IAC).

For a PAC, both of these chords must be in root position, and the melody must end in the tonic pitch (in this case it is C). An IAC is any other V - I progression. Generally speaking, a PAC is used to end the piece, while an IAC is for smaller phrases/melodies. This cadence will leave a "complete" feeling to the listener, hence a "perfect" cadence. It can be compared to a full-stop (.).

Half Cadence (I-V, ii-V, IV-V, vi-V)

A half cadence is any cadence that ends with a V chord. It can be preceded by I, IV, ii, or vi. It leaves an "incomplete" feeling to the listener, hence a "half" cadence. It can be compared to a comma (,). It cannot be used to end a melody, therefore there must be another phrase after the half cadence. In other words, music must go on after this cadence.

Plagal Cadence (IV - I)
A IV-I progression, also a "full-stop" cadence. It can be heard at the end of church hymns and final movements of full-scale works.

Deceptive Cadence (V-vi)
A deceptive cadence tricks the listener into thinking that a perfect cadence is about to happen, but instead a vi chord is played. It is not a conclusive cadence, and is often used to extend the length of a phrase.


So that concludes the first tutorial on what cadences are. I'm sorry if it was a bit confusing and badly-written(it's 1am as I write this). If there is anything to add or correct, please do so.

The use of cadences in practice will be covered in my next tutorial about phrasing. Until then, it helps to analyse pieces to identify cadences. It is also essential that you play them on the piano or any other instrument so you will know how they sound like (especially what I mean about a "complete" and "incomplete" cadence).

Keep 'em coming. ;)

Well, this tutorial's not written by me, but I found it at an RPG development site. It was supposed to help people compose music for their RPG's. Some people here might find it useful. It goes from basic scales and chords, to intermediate stuff like gypsy scales, blues scales, sus2 and sus4 chords, etc etc.

I've attached the file to this post because the site with the tutorial isn't working for me. I hope you can open *.doc files.

OK, people. If your computer says that the tutorial I posted has a virus or something, I don't know what is wrong with your computer. It is only a MS Wordpad file. Sorry to all the Mac and *nix users.

Cadences Part II and phrasing

Not much this time around, just giving an example of the use of cadences in musical context.

Now, the image is big, so please click here:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v131/betahebat/mozart.gif

This is the opening 8 bars of Mozart's Sonata in A major K.331. You will notice the Roman Numerals that I have inserted in the picture. In bar 4 you will see a half cadence, a ii-(Ic)-V progression. If you listen to this piece (midi file included), you will notice that this cadence will leave an "incomplete" feeling to the listener.. In bar 8, the melody is ended satisfactorily with a perfect cadence (Ib - V7 - I).

You will also notice that the phrases are 4 bars each. This will make the melody more balanced and well-structured. 4-bar phrasing is called "regular phrasing" and you should employ regular phrasing if you are a beginner. When composing, you should start planning your piece by determining where your cadences will go, and it is important that you take into consideration the length of your phrases.

Of course there are "irregular phrases" which can be used, but for now just stick to regular phrasing and you won't go wrong.

Now, as an exercise, go to Sheet Music Archive (http://www.sheetmusicarchive.net) and try to analyze cadences in as many Mozart or Haydn pieces as you are able to. Also notice the length of the phrases.

The next tutorial will be on 8-bar melody writing.

Feedback would be nice too; I want to know if this is useful to anybody. :S

Well, I've been busy lately, so I'll post a new tutorial next week. Until then, others can also contribute...

Good work Moebius! ^_^

Hmm, maybe this topic can be pinned?

~~

Anyways, I've realized that there aren't many tutorials on "actual composing". What I mean is that sure, there's theory, which is important. But to make the theory work into a song is a different story (damn, so hard to explain what I mean, haha). Moebius started off the first step with the phrasing, so thanks to him for that.

Some of you have heard me talk about music being like a story. You have the intro to set up the mood. Then you build up the characters and the situation. Eventually you get to the climax. Then you finish it off. The problem with some songs is that people forget to take their time to tell the story. They try to rush all their ideas in at once. But the audience needs time to digest the material. As to the actual practice of basing music on a story, that's even harder for me or anyone else here to teach.

Another problem I've found in songs is that the material is so random. There should be form, some sort of direction. There has to be a purpose to what you're writing. Don't be, "hmm, this sounds good, and this sounds good, so they should be placed side by side". No, instead, the two have to connect and flow. One way to do this is with motives. Look up Beethoven's 5th symphony (1st movement), Tifa's Theme (FFVII), or even my nonameyet piece. The motives help tie everything together so nothing sounds out of place.

The best songs are emotional. Feel them through the music, and they will guide you as to how the music should go. A pause here, a ritardando here, but no, let's crescendo and make it exciting! I don't know, something like that.

That's all I can think of at the moment. I might write some more later.

Good points, Alphonse. :D

I agree with everything, especially the part about motives... which happens to be exactly what I'm about to introduce in 8-bar melody writing.. Okay here goes:

8-bar melody writing

There is, of course, more than one way to write a melody, and this is merely an example, but it is important that you get the concept right. Writing an 8-bar melody is very simple and can be achieved in only a couple of steps.

First of all you should have to plan your composition. By now you should have an idea about the general mood of your piece. You would of course need to decide on a key. We will take G major. Since there are 8 bars in the melody, you would want to use regular phrasing, as I had discussed in my previous 'tutorial'. That means there will be two phrases which are 4 bars in length each. The first one should end with a half cadence. Actually it can end with any cadence, but for the current purposes we will use the half cadence to end the first phrase. The second phrase (the 'answering phrase') should end in a perfect cadence.



|* I* * * * * * ** |* * * * * * * * ** |* * * * * * * ** |V (half cadence)** |
|* * * * * * * * * |* * * * * * * * ** |* * * * * * * |V - I (perfect cadence)|

There. Not too hard, right? Now you shall have to decide on a time signature and write a motive. Here's an example:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v131/betahebat/motive.gif

Well, it's a crappy example (and sorry for the cut off lines too). But good enough. Your motive should be:
1) short and sweet
2) easy to remember
3) suits the mood (your time signature should fit this criterion as well)
4) simple

It does NOT need to be complex. For example, in Beethoven's 5th Symphony Mov.1, a very simple motive with two notes (the first note being played three times, that is) was used. It's strong, easy to remember, and suits the mood. It's that easy. Use common sense to guide you. If you're planning on a slow, melancholic piece, common sense tells you to use longer note-values (although that is not always the case). If it's a joyful piece, perhaps a more lively motive would be good. These are of course only examples, and I trust that you have enough intelligence to write a motive. There can be more than one motives in one phrase or melody, but for now we would use only one.

Next, we shall ignore the notes temporarily, and focus only on the rhythmic part of the motive. The motive I had written consists of one dotted crochet, followed by a quaver and then a minim. Using this information, the rhythm of the first phrase can be written. The picture for my example is big, so please click on the link:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v131/bet...hraserhythm.gif (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v131/betahebat/phraserhythm.gif)

Please excuse me as I forgot to insert the key signature. It is actually in G major. Anyway, you will see that there is a slight variation on the third bar. Since the 'motion' in the motive stops at the first and second bars, I made the rhythm more flowing in the third bar for more variety. It is to make the melody more interesting.

Now, with the same concepts, you can either come up with a loosely related (or totally unrelated) answering phrase by writing another motive, OR you can follow the exact rhythm. Or you can do a bit of both. It's up to you. Since I'm too lazy right now, I'll just copy the rhythm of the first phrase exactly. So there -- you have the rhythm of the two phrases planned out.

The next step is to decide on the chord progression. I would assume that you know about the functions of chords -- as in, which chords are more suitable to go after which chords, etc.. It is important that you think of the cadence as the "aim" or "target" of each phrase. The chord progression will ultimately build up to the cadence. Here's a planned out chord progression I have:


Phrase 1
|G major: I* * * ** | V7b* * * ** | vi* * * ** | V (half cadence)* * * |

Phrase 2
|I* * * * * ** | V7b* * * * * * | vi* * * IV* | V - I (perfect cadence) |

There. It isn't too complex. V7b refers to the dominant seventh in first inversion. Chord changes fall on the strong beats (although my little "diagram" isn't clear). For a 4/4 rhythm, the strong beats are on the first and third beats. So if you are writing in 4/4, keep that in mind.

Now that you have your rhythmic material and your chord progression planned out, it's time to put the notes in accordingly. These are phrases 1 and 2 respectively:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v131/betahebat/phrase1.gif
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v131/betahebat/phrase2.gif

Combined, they make a 8-bar melody. A midi file is attached with this post. It isn't a good melody written by a genius, I admit, and it's even a little embarrassing for me. But at least you get a general idea of melody writing. I composed that in less than 5 minutes. Once you know the steps, you can also do it.

While you guys concentrate on theory, I'll take my time and write a little something about composing.

This may be a little off topic but I feel like sharing. I once attended a composition clinic hosted by the guy who does the Megaman Cartoon music and a whole slew of things in Europe. He actually did a live composition of a song right there.

He decided to do a Jazz piece since he had his trio there and the whole thing was being hosted by a local Jazz club. So he started out by choosing the style and chord structure. He decided on a ballad and a modal chord structure so he basically just chose three chords and gave them each eight bars. He wanted an empty sad feel to it so he chose, I don't remember the exact chords, a couple of minor nines and dorian chords. Then he just got the bass player and piano player to go with it for a chorus and he came in on the second chorus playing flute so he could write the music without transposing. Basically they just ran through it a few times, tweaking it here and there and then examined it. They felt it was too normal so they added a bar of 9/8 and tried it again. After ten more minutes of reworking, they had a complete piece and it sounded really good.

It just seemed this was a novel way of doing compositions and would work to get the core idea for just about any style. I've tried doing this a couple of times and once I get back to my normal computer I can post it. I hope that has given a couple o people ideas on how to do their next song.

Hey, that's pretty interesting, and that gives me an idea. How about the next time we compose a piece, we actually write down our thoughts about what went into that piece? When I wrote my sonata, I had a sort of diary, but it was more of a progress report than a tutorial. So what do you say guys? Next time you compose, provide the score with your notes (er, pun not intended). That way we get to look into the mind of a composer and see why you did what you did.

Hmm... sounds good, that's a great idea.

Well, this site might be useful for analysis of Bach fugues:

http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/~tas3/wtc.html

Not my fault if you get a headache, though. Because it sure gave me one.

Well...first post! :lol: I'm just posting to say thank you to all the people putting tutorials and things into this thread...I'm starting my first music theory class this year, and the tutorials here are very helpful...so thanks alot! ^_^

And I for one, think this should be stickied :sweatdrop:

EDIT:FLCL is the best show ever btw :lol: :lol: :lol:

Glad to hear you found them useful :D

mmhm, i like the "stupidtutorialmelody" too btw :lol: :lol: :lol:

I left my music notes at my other place, so I can't write about them until I go back in September. But how about you guys make a list of topics or something? Then whoever wants can write about the stuff they're most familiar with.

Oi...I just tried composing a fewsongs, and they all came out miserably (they sounded good in my head :heh: ) > .< oh well, keep trying I guess neh? Could somebody please tell me, how helpful is your first year of music theory? ^.^

Very helpful, but spend more than a year for best results *nods*

Oh, of course&#33; ^_^ I plan on going to college and everything for music theory...I just know *noting* right now, and was wondering how helpful what I&#39;m gonna learn in my first year will be :lol:

wow you guys are going into MUSIC as a major?
that&#39;s pretty nice, WISH YOU GUYS LUCK

i learn rudiment, and harmony by myself, and it seem very useful, when it comes to composing that is. First song i composed...was so sucky, i&#39;m just picking out melodies and harmonize bass from the air, it sounded OKAY, but so hard to develope later on...ARGG

Tips on composing eh?

1: Think of a melody, the most important, keep your melody around 8-16 bars, DO NOT HAVE A MELODY THAT&#39;S MORE THAN 16 BARS&#33; SIMPLICITY IS VERY IMPORTANT&#33;

2: If you want to use chords, don&#39;t use 4 notes chords, use 3 notes chords and keep it simple (If it&#39;s your first composition)

3: Once you composed your melody, you add second voice, or third voice. But HARMONY HAS TO BE STRICT&#33; Chord progressions has to follow the rules. Because if you mess up with chords, you&#39;ll piece will end up messy, and really hard to develope later on.

4: Once your main melody is finished. Which hopefully around 16 bars. Now you can develope your main melody. Many ways to develope it. 1: Change keys, but try not to change to weird keys. If your piece is C major, then make your melody to relative minor, or G major or F major. Great key to change to is five notes above your main melody key. (If your harmony teacher teach you, it&#39;s called "CIRCLE OF FIVE" ) 2: Change rhythems but usually it&#39;s not recommended, but base your rhythems to the main melody, and hopefully we (listeners) will find some evidence that the developed rhythems has some similarity to the main melody rhythems. 3: If your really good, change your melody to a totally different mood, rhythems and keys. But if you choose that, you need to becareful about the fluency of the piece. (highly NOT recommended)

5: First composition, keep it short, dont&#39; make too long and don&#39;t add too many parts to your piece. Once you completed a short, simple piano piece, then you can add violin, cello and maybe harp to give more color and richness to your piece, but before that you have to achieve the above requirements (AND MAYBE MORE)

EDIT: I just copy and paste this post i wrote in this other thread

wow, thanks everyone.
that really reminds me of the theory class I took last year.
regarding to Neerolyte&#39;s "1: Think of a melody,"

there&#39;s another method of composing (my theory teacher taught me, and I have been using it): instead of thinking of melodies and voices, we can first think of an "idea" of the music, just like what Alphonse said, and what instruments can best express that "idea". Then decide which Keys suit the instruments and in what speed/loudness/time signiture will suit both the "idea" and the capability of the instruments.

after that, we can go into the actual composing,
two methods:
1. compose a melody for motif.... then just follow what Neerolyte said.
2. compose chords, use cadences like Moebius described, to shape the structure and direction of the piece. then compose melody/themes upon the chords, so that the melody will be more consistent with the chords and easier to compose.

I did try both of these, and I found that it&#39;s actually best to combine them in the composing process.

eh, this is gonna sound so stupid...but what exactly is harmony? And how would you go about achecving it? Any general tips? :heh:

Yeah, I like Darren&#39;s idea, I also sort of use a mixture of both points together . . . but since I&#39;m in the middle of composing right now, I find it hard to follow all these advices >< hehe, the irony . . .

HopelessComposer: The simpliest way for me to define harmony is that it is the chords you play. Example, the C major triad consists of 3 notes, C, E, and G. Harmony involves moving from chord to chord. So once you understand the relationship between the chords and the key you&#39;re in, you can achieve a chord progression.

Heya - if anyone is interested in composing a serialism or ground bass piece I can post up tutorials. I know not everyone is a big fan of serialism but if anyone would like a tute on it please reply to this post or PM me :)

Interesting. However, I am not quite familiar with Serialism. (I am still a beginner, only 1yr of music theory)
I&#39;ve checked out this link:
http://www.duckmusic.free-online.co.uk/hat...ial/partone.htm (http://www.duckmusic.free-online.co.uk/hatton/serial/partone.htm)
and I got a basic idea of it, but still I haven&#39;t got a clear sense in its difference from other music in terms of style.
can you give us some classic examples (names of songs) of Serialism?

Serialism isn&#39;t to everyone&#39;s taste - it&#39;s one of the most rigid forms of composition as it uses the same 12 notes with variations such as inversions, retrograde and verticalisation. Examples of it were mostly by composers such as Stravinsky, Berg, Webern and Schoenberg but there&#39;s others around too.

Here&#39;s some examples:

Schoenberg: Mässige (MIDI below)

Webern: 3 songs (1925)

Stravinsky: Thredi (1958)

It&#39;ll only let me attach one MIDI and I&#39;m a bit iffy about direct-linking in case I get into trouble - hope it helps&#33;

mmn... it sounds odd, but there&#39;re many interesting moments in the piece and it&#39;s quite mysterious.
Have you actually compose any piece yourself using Serialism?

Madmazda, I&#39;d love if you&#39;d post information on a ground bass tutorial or walkthrough. :) Also, would you please explain what a ground bass is?

Originally posted by Darren@Aug 26 2004, 08:53 AM
mmn... it sounds odd, but there&#39;re many interesting moments in the piece and it&#39;s quite mysterious.
Have you actually compose any piece yourself using Serialism?
Cool innit? ;) I love Serialism (and clashy chords in general - the coolest chord is F#-G-A# one octave above middle C, it seriously does things to your head&#33;) but alas I&#39;m majorly bad at composing it - I&#39;m fine with retrogrades but my inversions suck :( I had to do a composition assignment for it but I just didn&#39;t have the patience once I&#39;d mucked up my inversions three times - inversions are tricky because you have to count the number of semitones between two notes... it&#39;s difficult to explain without diagrams so I think I will do a tutorial for it :) I&#39;ll have to spend a bit of time doing screencaps and stuff so it may take a week or two.

Gnomish - sure I can do a ground bass tutorial :) Again I&#39;ll be hunting for examples and doing screencaps of sample scores so it may take a little while - I promise it&#39;ll be worth the wait&#33;

Could anyone make a tutorial about jazz chord progressions? :huh:
I would like to learn more about jazz chords :lol:

Sure, what would you like to know about? Blues, Rythm Changes... etc.. I&#39;ve done a lot of work with all of them and would be happy to share. I could also help with improvisation if you would like.

Well, here&#39;s the Blues Scale that many musicians use to improvise over a twelve measure progression. C Eb F F# G Bb C I&#39;ve attached a MIDI with the scale at the bottom.

I think ground bass is a bass chord progression(perhaps around 8 bars) that&#39;s continued throughout the piece with different melodies on top.

Here&#39;s the blues tutorial, it&#39;s fairly basic but I can try to go more in-depth if anyone wants.

The most basic and most used progression in Jazz is the blues progression. The standard blues is twelve bars long and made up of completely dominant chords. The most basic version is as follows:

I7 I7 I7 I7 IV7 IV7 I7 I7 V7 IV7 I7 I7

This is very rarely used however as it really sounds more like a 50’s rock tune than jazz. This is the more common version of the progression.

I7 IV7 I7 I7 IV7 IV7 I7 I7 ii7 IV7 (iii7 vi7) (ii7 V7)

The brackets each indicate a full bar so each of the ending four chords would take up a half note. Basically what the roman numerals mean is that the I7 chord is the dominant tonic in the case of the key of C it would be a C7 (C, E, G, Bb). Therefore the chord progression for a basic C blues is:

C7 C7 C7 C7 F7 F7 C7 C7 G7 F7 C7 C7

Although there are many altered blues forms it is usually possible to play either the basic or the common progression in a solo section and have it sound fine. In order to solo on a blues many teachers use the blues scale that Haku mentions above but I’ve always found that it’s very restrictive and should only be used for a beginner. A better way to begin soloing is to try using three basic scales. Start by mastering the blues scale and try playing solos using only those notes (in order to get the background chords on CD I’d suggest buying a Jamie Aebersold book). After practicing that try doing the same thing using only the outline of the chord (C, E, G, Bb in the case of C7). Finally try playing solos using only the actual chord’s scale (C, D, E, F, G, A, Bb in the case of C7). After you are able to do that you have a far broader range of notes that you are able to use in a solo than just the blues scale.

I’m not sure what else to include here but if you have any questions feel free to post them or PM me. I have several years experience working with just jazz and should be able to answer most questions.

thanks for your replies people :)

I could also help with improvisation if you would like.
Yay&#33; :lol: Could you give me some hints, chord progressions etc.?

*bump* :P This REALLY should be stickied, in my opinion... I&#39;m sure you all agree? :lol: Anyway, would someone please post a tutorial on how percussion parts are supposed to be notated? I rarely use percussion, but when I do, it&#39;d be nice to have a clue as to how it&#39;s supposed to be notated... :)

Agreed :P It should be sticked ^^

@Gnomish: Percussion parts, well if you&#39;re playing playing only one drum, then the staff has only one line. Mallet instruments have the regular notation we all know and love. I&#39;ve seen the noteheads replaced by a little x on a drumset piece. :think: If you&#39;re thinking of entering this in Finale, then I must tell you a few things. Snare and the bass drum as well as a few other parts are way down below possible notation, so you&#39;ll have to click and hold in the staff, then drag down. What I recommend is downloading Anvil Studio, and set the instrument channel to 10. Then fiddle around and see which notated pitches turn out to be the instruments you need. Your other option that I know of is to save your Finale pieces as MIDIs and add a rhythm track to them in Anvil.

I&#39;ve pmed michael asking if he can sticky this :) I&#39;m still working on the Ground Bass tutorial as I&#39;m actually talking through a step-by-step composition of a piece (and I&#39;ve had an evil week working in my new job, which is tiring me out to the point that I&#39;m planning to chuck it in :() - it will be up soon&#33;&#33;

*pins*

Thanks&#33; :D

:lol: I couldn&#39;t find this thread for a while because it was all the way at the top. Anyways, I found this great site that lists a bunch of chords and scales in every key. The list is too long to mention here, so just check it out.
http://www.looknohands.com/chordhouse/piano/

I&#39;ve an idea - I can see this thread getting very long, so perhaps it would be a good idea to make a contents list and link to the posts at the start of the thread to save people trawling through page after page? :)

http://forums.ichigos.com/index.php?showto...t=0&#entry15416 (http://forums.ichigos.com/index.php?showtopic=634&st=0&#entry15416)

I thought I&#39;d add Gnomish&#39;s counterpoint lesson in here. Btw, did anybody ever use that giant tutorial I showed way back in the beginning?

I had a look at it but it seemed a bit basic for me - not much in there that I hadn&#39;t learnt already. I don&#39;t tend to pay much attention to scales and proper chord titles etc when composing - I just let the notes flow, I guess. I should kinda learn all the I II III chords etc at some point but for the moment I&#39;m just happy tinkering around ;)

I&#39;ve finished my Ground Bass Tutorial but it&#39;s like 10 pages so what I&#39;m gonna do is upload it to a seperate web-page and post the link here so as not to crash the thread with the size of it&#33; :)

My random tutorial. The midi is for the second page.

http://members.rogers.com/alphonsenguyen/tutorial1.gif
http://members.rogers.com/alphonsenguyen/tutorial2.gif

Originally posted by Haku@Sep 7 2004, 06:10 PM
http://forums.ichigos.com/index.php?showto...t=0&#entry15416 (http://forums.ichigos.com/index.php?showtopic=634&st=0&#entry15416)

I thought I&#39;d add Gnomish&#39;s counterpoint lesson in here.
Thanks, amigo&#33; :)

It&#39;s here&#33;

http://www.geocities.com/madmazda86/GBTute.html

;)

P.S. Great tute, Alphonse - interesting reading&#33;

Woot&#33; Thanks, Madmazda&#33; :D

madmazda86, your tutorial is excellent&#33; This was what I was talking about, a clear walkthrough for composing, even though it was just for ground bass, still&#33; ^^

Heehee, thanks - serialism is next&#33;

Does anybody want me to make a tutorial on chords? I just don&#39;t want beginners to suffer the terminology I did.

ya i think you should.
Espeically composing, chords represent voices, and if screw up on chords...all the voices get mess up. It&#39;s good to clear it up for beginners

What exactly does everyone want to know about chords? Progressions or just the different types and how to write them.

You&#39;re more knowledgable in this area. It&#39;d be better for everybody if you could do it.

Originally posted by Elite666@Sep 11 2004, 02:15 PM
What exactly does everyone want to know about chords? Progressions or just the different types and how to write them.
I think doing both would be best. I feel that most people neglect teaching the actual progression because it&#39;s trickier.

There&#39;s a few people here that know far more about the classical chord progressions then me so for now I&#39;ll hope they will make the tutorial on that (If not I&#39;l do it but there&#39;s already one on cadences and that&#39;s one of the most important concepts for now). However, I think I can do the chords easily enough so here it is:

In order to understand chords it&#39;s very important to understand chord language. It&#39;s basically just referring to notes in terms of their interval (or more correctly their place in the scale). So the notes will be referred to as root, third, fifth, seventh, ninth... etc.

The easiest chord (and most common in most music) is the major chord. It&#39;s very simple: It&#39;s jsut the root, third and fifth and it follows the key signature.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v338/Contrabassclarinet86/major.jpg

The major chord does have a shortened notation but I&#39;ll hande all of those at the end of the tutorial.

The next most common chord is the minor chord. Again it&#39;s very simple, it just follows the minor key signature which means that the third is lowered a semi-tone from the major chord.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v338/Contrabassclarinet86/minorcopy.jpg

Another way at looking at chords is to think of it in terms of building thirds. A major chord is just a major third (C to E in the case of C maj) and then a minor third (E to G in the case of C maj). Sometimes it&#39;s easier to build chords quickly through different keys if you think of it this way. A minor chord would just be a minor third and then a major third on top.

While that doesn&#39;t make major and minor any easier to understand it does help with the next two chords: Diminished and Augmented. An augmented chord is merely two intervals of a major third piled on top of each other. A diminished chord is just two intervals of a minor third piled on top of each other. Thinking of it this way is far quicker than thinking that you should raise the fifth or lower the third and fifth.

Here are the diminished and augmented chords.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v338/Contrabassclarinet86/diminaug.jpg

There is one more type of chord that uses only three notes, the suspended chord. Really there is only one type of suspended chord but since it sounds significantly different depending on its voicing then it&#39;s usually seen as two seperate chords. The suspended chords just substitiute the third for the note of their choosing, either the fourth or the second. The fourth is far more commonly used but it seems in anime music especially there is a fair amount of the suspended second used.

These are the two suspended chords. In the next part of this tutorial I&#39;ll go more in-depth about what makes them the same.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v338/Contrabassclarinet86/Untitled-1copy.jpg

Lastly, I&#39;ll quickly cover the three main types of seven chord (I&#39;ll do more in the second part of the tutorial). The seven chords just add one more interval of a third on to the top of one of the existing chords. The major seven follows the key signature of the root (adds a major third to the major chord), the minor seven follows the minor key of the root (adds a minor third to the minor chord) and the dominant seven just lowers the seventh note by a semi-tone (adds a minor third to the major chord). These are the main types of chords that you&#39;ll cover in most music. Most of the rest of the chords (and even the dominant seven) are mainly jazz chords. These are the three seven chords I&#39;ve covered.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v338/Contrabassclarinet86/sevens.jpg

So those are the most common chords and I&#39;ll be covering far more things in part 2 but for now I&#39;ll just finish off with the different notations.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v338/Contrabassclarinet86/notation.jpg

As usual, if you have any questions or if you have anything to add then please post.

What about this, I think it got forgotten. :mellow:


Originally posted by Alphonse
How about the next time we compose a piece, we actually write down our thoughts about what went into that piece? When I wrote my sonata, I had a sort of diary, but it was more of a progress report than a tutorial. So what do you say guys? Next time you compose, provide the score with your notes (er, pun not intended). That way we get to look into the mind of a composer and see why you did what you did.

That&#39;s what I did for my ground bass tutorial :) Link is in one of my posts above.

Now that I think about it, it&#39;s too hard. :-&#092; Somehow madmazda did it for the ground bass, but I don&#39;t see how it can be done with other songs.

I managed it because I actually thought about what I was doing rather than just letting it all go "lalala, ooo, it&#39;s all done" - normally I end up with a piece that I&#39;ve no idea why or how I composed ;) It&#39;d be much more difficult with a larger piece as you&#39;d be making a lot more changes and tweaks which you&#39;d have to justify to the reader. I have to admit I did change some of the notes in the lines of my tutorial score here and there without putting it in the composition notes, mainly because it was only relevant to the piece as I heard it and I didn&#39;t want to make the tutorial needlessly complicated - it is a tutorial after all rather than a detailed justification of my composition technique ;) The example is there to serve merely as a guide on how to structure a ground bass piece, rather than as a composition walkthrough :)

Edit: Not to mention the fact that you have to stop every few minutes to write about what you&#39;re doing - pain in the bum and seriously disrupts the flow&#33; Oh, and it took me about five days to finish ;)

Originally posted by Alphonse@Sep 14 2004, 07:52 PM
Now that I think about it, it&#39;s too hard. :-&#092; Somehow madmazda did it for the ground bass, but I don&#39;t see how it can be done with other songs.
I&#39;m doing something like that for my current song, but it is EXTREMELY general. It&#39;s a song about school XD

A short "tutorial" on the importance of key signature selection, taken directly from here (http://www.library.yale.edu/~mkoth/keychar.htm):

C major: gay and warlike
C minor: obscure and sad
D major: joyous and very warlike
D minor: serious and pious
Eb major: cruel and hard
E major: quarrelsome and boisterous
E minor: effeminate, amorous, plaintive
F major: furious and quick-tempered subjects
F minor: obscure and plaintive
G major: serious and magnificent
G minor: serious and magnificent
A major: joyful and pastoral
A minor: tender and plaintive
B major: harsh and plaintive
B minor: solitary and melancholic
Bb major: magnificent and joyful
Bb minor: obscure and terrible

Scriabin&#39;s system of colored musical keys:
C# -- Purple
F# -- Bright Blue/Violet
B -- Blue
E -- Sky Blue
A -- Green
D -- Yellow
G -- Orange
C -- Red
F -- Deep Red
Bb -- Rose/Steel
Eb -- Flesh
Ab -- Violet
Db -- Purple (same as C#)
Gb -- Bright Blue/Violet (same as F#)

~~

Anyways, it&#39;s all left to interpretation, so check out the site for more details.

Oh and for anone working on Grade 6 theory, here are a set of cord progressions that work for Q1 Harmonization of a bar 8 melody:

Major to dominant
I, I, ii, V, VI, I, IV, I, V
Major to Sub dominant
I, I, iii, V, I, iii, ii, IV
Major to relative minor
I, I, ii, V, IV, VI, iii, VI
Minor to dominant
I, I, ii, V, iii, I, IV, V
Minor to Sub dominant
I, I, iii, V I, iii, ii, IV
Minor to major
I, I, ii, V, VI, III, VII, III

took along time to work out and have yet to fail me
hope someone find this usefull

Hey, I&#39;m relatively new to music. I know the most basic of music theory, and I study the piano. I&#39;ve been playing for about 6 months.

Does anyone know a good site where I can pick up the basics, or recommend a top notch book to read on composing?

Gnoooooomish?? (He&#39;s the counterpoint etc guru around here ;)) Check out some of the tutorials here too to get started :)

i recomend the &#39;theory is fun&#39; series for begginers, makes it easier to remember dont know about any realy good books

Here’s my latest tutorial on how to compose:

You’ll want to practice a lot of improvisation. It doesn’t matter if you’re good or bad, but you just need to get your mind used to the creation process. I sometimes view composing as a small-scale improvisation that is done in bits and pieces. And take your time when improvising, because there’s no need to rush, right? Also, there’s one quote I know that suggests you should sing as if nobody’s listening. Let’s just say that my housemates wish I didn’t believe in that&#33; Anyhow, some of the best songs are easy to sing to. So once you get yourself into the habit of singing, you’re well on your way.

Now with those general ideas in mind, I will describe some tips I’ve just realized that should help you get the “feel” for composing. Note that I won’t actually describe how to compose. All I’m teaching you is how to get used to the idea of doing so. I mean, it’s one thing to teach phrasing and harmony, but it’s another thing to teach people how to make it sound good&#33; So here’s my attempt . . .

1) Find some songs you like listening to, because I want you to listen to them over and over again *has developed an obsession for a number of pieces in this manner* because I believe that studying other songs is a great way to write your own songs, and by listening to them repeatedly, you start to get the feel for it . .
2) So get into those songs, and I mean really get into the songs . . sing them, play them, get passionate, etc. until you know it by heart just as well as the composer (you get the idea)
3) Now pretend that you’re helping the composer arrange the song, and that you have input on what you’re allowed to add and remove. So while you’re listening to the song, there are a number of fun exercises you can do . .
4) For instance, as you sing along (I stress the singing out-loud), you can: I) harmonize the melody, II) create an independent melody to the main one, like, you can think of it as background violin accompaniment or whatever (essentially, you’ll be creating counterpoint without realizing it), III) use canon style, eg. Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream (Row, row, row your boat); this one’s a bit trickier, so you’ll need a good memory to prevent yourself from getting the melodies mixed, but you may be surprised at the results in the end, IV) sing the main melody at places where you wouldn’t normally hear it (this gets you used to hearing the same melody with new chords)
5) When you play the song on an instrument, try switching the keys from major to minor (and vice versa). And when you play it from memory, you’re bound to forget some things, so take the opportunity to make up new stuff as you go along. It’s like a structured improvisation, since you’ll still have an idea of how it generally sounds. Finally, try improvising on one of the song’s motifs. Would it make a good accompaniment?
6) All of this is designed to get you the feel for those songs. And now you can apply what you’ve learned to your own songs. You’ll find that it’ll come out more naturally. So, good luck&#33;

Hiya... I&#39;m not sure how to change the title of my topic that holds all of my compositions. Unfortunately, this means no one looks at it :cry: :crybaby: . Much appreciated if someone could give me a hint on how to do this (just pm me, plz). Is this the right topic to be posting this? :doh:

Afraid not, TrumpetPlaya42. You&#39;ll need to PM one of the moderators/admins to get it changed. :) This thread is only for teaching theory and the art of composition.

Can&#39;t you edit the title by editing the very first post of the thread you created? Not sure, but I think non-moderative users can do that.

PM me or michael if it won&#39;t work, and you want to rename it.

check this out: http://www.classicalarchives.com/learning/ (oh i havent read the rules, sorry&#33; but i hope i didn&#39;t violate any)

much about how to preform a piece, techniques and stuff, rather than music theory such as harmony, counterpoint etc.

however this is at least just as important. of course this depend if you mainly either compose or preform music. i think most of us do a bit of both.

How do you guys feel about parallel fifths in music? (And parallel fourths?)

I think that the rule should be allowed to be broken whenever you please, as long as it isn&#39;t in the melody line. I think that for harmonic purposes, progressions of parallel fifths should be allowed at the will of the composer. I use parallel fifths very often, but only in my harmonic parts in the background, ie synthesizer pad sfx, choir oohs, etc. I think we should try to overlook this rule whenever we wish&#33; :)

To be a composer means you should be able to make your own rules ^.~ As for me, I am bound by how my ear interprets the sounds, and it hates parallel fifths/fourths. It needs the full harmonies to be happy . . by the way, look up Debussy&#39;s works for the realization of parallelism&#39;s potential =)

I wonder if I&#39;d be able to write a tutorial on melody writing :think: *plans on doing research*

Even though you guys make good points, I *still* believe you think too much. Don&#39;t try so hard.

Bah&#33; *pulls out a taser and chases after Noir7 viciously.* :P We can&#39;t all compose so wonderfully as yourself without brushing up our knowledge of theory, so count yourself lucky to be able to. :heh:

What do you guys think of an illusionary chord resolution in the end of songs? I think it sounds great if used properly, and it provides just the right sense of suspension mixed with resolution with a bit of, "Huh?" at the end of a song. If you don&#39;t have any ideas what I mean, here is an example:

~The song is in a minor.
~When coming to a close on the song, instead of a full chord, try leaving it as a suspended 2nd chord. (a, b, e.)
~It is most useful in this chord with the LH ends on the fifth of the chord (e) instead of the tonic once again (a), because otherwise you would have to resolve in the LH as well, thus weakening the mystery of the ending.
~Here is what the notes would be (if it were on a piano): LH e (octaves if you want), RH e a b e (in that order).
~Next, in the RH, you softly lower the a to g#, thus ending the piece on an E Major chord while the whole piece was in a minor.

I know this is a unique and somewhat confusing way to end a song, but try it out and let me know your opinions&#33; :)

This chord sounds great in those spy movies =)

Woot&#33; Go illusionary chord resolutions&#33; :D

That&#39;s all ya had to say, Al? :heh:

This thread needs life breathed into it. :P

EDIT:

Is it just me, or does anyone else have a personal disliking toward piano LH Block Chords? :P If you can&#39;t break up a chord, don&#39;t use the chord, I say&#33; :) I only use block chords ONCE IN A WHILE near the end of a song for piano. Otherwise, I assign block chords to backup chorded instruments (orchestra, synth SFX, etc.) and let the LH of the piano do completely broken chords. Makes a song much more emotional and interesting, in my opinion. ^.^

Hehe, yeah, once in a while, block chords are okay. But if you can find ways to avoid it, then it&#39;s an index of your creativity. I mean, if you continually push yourself to make your music different and unpredictable (e.g. no repetitive block chords), then you can only improve.

I agree, there needs to be more life breathed into this thread&#33; On that note, I made another tutorial on composing. It kinda sucks, but meh:

http://members.rogers.com/alphonsenguyen/lesson1.gif
http://members.rogers.com/alphonsenguyen/lesson2.gif

Edit: What, the links are dead? Then just PM me with your e-mail if you really want it ._.

Edit: New links, whee&#33;

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y65/Alpho...126/lesson1.gif (http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y65/Alphonse1126/lesson1.gif)
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y65/Alpho...126/lesson2.gif (http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y65/Alphonse1126/lesson2.gif)

Hmm, those links don&#39;t seem to work...

Here&#39;s (http://www.musique.umontreal.ca:16080/personnel/Belkin/bk/) a pretty neat one I&#39;ve found.

These are four "books" which "discuss fundamental principles of musical composition, [counterpoint, orchestration, and harmony] in concise, practical terms, and to provide guidance for student composers" , claiming to be "a guide to some of the basic tools of the trade". I&#39;ve only glanced at the composition one, but from what I&#39;ve seen, it&#39;s pretty solid. Check it out. (Btw, I notice the text appears to refer a lot of pieces in the classical repetoire to illustrate examples; sites like The Classical Archives (http://www.classicalarchives.com) would definitely help you to follow along).

As for block chords, they can sound pretty damn cool if you use them appropriately (see attached); same for parallelism (many if not most of my compositions rely on whole/half tone progressions, and I just love parallel fifths chords).

Originally posted by Plod@Aug 26 2004, 09:02 PM
Well, here&#39;s the Blues Scale that many musicians use to improvise over a twelve measure progression. C Eb F F# G Bb C I&#39;ve attached a MIDI with the scale at the bottom.

I think ground bass is a bass chord progression(perhaps around 8 bars) that&#39;s continued throughout the piece with different melodies on top.
Sometimes using an unconventional scale can have good results. I messed around at my keyboard using the blues scale and came up with this cool...erm thing. It&#39;s not anything complete but it can give you ideas on the usefulness of using a non-standard scale.

Have fun and don&#39;t turn your speakers up too loud.

*rubs his forehead* :yawn: My head hurts from trying to figure out musical sequencing for so long&#33; I&#39;ve looked for music theory sites to help, but every time I search for musical sequencing, it brings up sites about MIDI and synthesizers. :rolleyes:

Anyone able to clearly and easily explain the enigma of harmonic sequencing to me?

Here is a quote taken from this article about Baroque classification (http://www.soweirdproductions.com/?page_id=112):


Corelli’s style – general points

Walking bass
The kind of bass line used in the Preludio is called a walking bass. Logically enough, a bass of this kind in a fast movement is known as a running bass

Echo effects

Harmonic sequence
Corelli makes use of harmonic sequence in bars 10 and 11. Here the sequence ascends, producing a series of rapid modulations from A major to B major and C# minor. These kind of modulations are called passing or transitory modulations (unit 13 and 18)

Here is the image that goes with the text:
Corelli - Op.5 No.11 - "Preludio"
http://www.soweirdproductions.com/wp-images/a214/p3_23_Corelli_Preludio.gif


So anyway, would someone please tell me how one is to properly implement and utilize musical [harmonic] sequencing?&#33; It looks so simple, but I can&#39;t put my finger on it at all&#33; After analyzing Bach&#39;s Brandenburg Concerto No. 3 (2nd mvt.), I still cannot figure out at all how he managed to modulate so quickly and easily for the next fugal entry to come in at the dominant. Ugh&#33; X_X

Well, I&#39;m not sure I understand what you&#39;re asking, but I&#39;ll try to explain how I read Corelli&#39;s piece (the relevant bars, 10 & 11):

(Bar 10:) A - f#/A (Bar 11:) B# - a#/H - c# - A/C#

Edit: Sorry, German intrusion... B# should be B, and a#/H should be a#/B... in Germany the Bb note is called B and the B note is called H; hence the confusion. I&#39;ve corrected this in the text below. Sorry...

What&#39;s happening here, is this:

Bar 10 is based on a major chord A. The second variation can be interpreted in two ways; as a major chord with an added 6th (A6), or as an inverted minor chord (f# with A in bass).

For the transition to the next chord, Corelli interprets it as the f#/A chord, and resolves it into B (as if f# had been a minor variation of the dominant of the B scale: F#). He then uses the same trick again for B (modulating via a#/B into c#), and for c#, ending back in A, where he started from. (I can&#39;t read the squiggle after the "6" at the end of Bar 11; if it&#39;s a "#", he&#39;ll probably want the bass movement [c#-d#|e] accentuated with a diminished chord or something. This would make sense, as the step&#39;s a whole note instead of a half one this time round [c# - d#]).

So, basically, what you&#39;re doing is, you&#39;re looking for "ambiguous chords" (those that could be one or the other) and use them in both their functions. So the f#/A chord read forwards is an ornament for A, and read backwards it&#39;s a dominant for B.

Basically, you need to look at the melody and see which intervals in your chords are needed for the porgressions/tension-resolutions, and which can be substituted for effect. So depending on the melody a C7 can be replaced by an a7, A7, g, c7, Eb, edim... And then you pretend you&#39;re in a different scale. (That&#39;s a rule-of-thumb, though. The theory is a lot more complicated, and while it&#39;s quite understandable in theory, recognising it in practise is hard.)

Perhaps this (http://www.tonalityguide.com/thprogressions.php) is a useful link?

Here Gnomish, I worked out the chord progression =P

*click* (http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y65/Alphonse1126/prelude.jpg)

Edit: Dawnstorm had the right idea though, haha, all I did was demonstrate that one chord can belong to more than one key . . this allows for &#39;pivoting&#39;, so that you can modulate.

I have no personal notes to add yet, but I&#39;d like to post a quote from the excellent composer John Williams who composed music to StarWars, Schindler&#39;s List, Jurassic Park, Jaws and other epic films.


"It&#39;s not possible for a composer to answer the question: how do I create a melody? The little things that may seem so simple, maybe even obvious, are sometimes the hardest thing to do. When you get something that&#39;s so right, you think, "Ah&#33; It has always been there, it&#39;s just that now it&#39;s right." But if you go back to three drafts before that, before you changed the B-flat to a B-natural, you realize how off it was and how you were still searching for something."

"Writing a tune is like sculpting. You get four or five notes, you take one out and move one around, and you do a bit more and eventually, as the sculptor says, "In that rock there is a statue, we have to go find it". There&#39;s a story that says it all. Paul Hindemith, the brilliant German composer, was offered the chair at Yale University as the Professor of Composition. He turned it down. Then they offered him the chair of Professor of Music Theory, which he took. So they asked him why, and he said, "I can teach music theory. But only God teaches composition."

Would someone be so kind as to refer a good book or website (preferably book) to learn the absolute basics of composing? I have only a basic understanding of theory, can someone also reccomend a book/website to help me with that too?

For basic theory, maybe you should try here:

Music Theory (http://www.musictheory.net/)

wow, thanks everyone.
that really reminds me of the theory class I took last year.
regarding to Neerolyte's "1: Think of a melody,"

there's another method of composing (my theory teacher taught me, and I have been using it): instead of thinking of melodies and voices, we can first think of an "idea" of the music, just like what Alphonse said, and what instruments can best express that "idea". Then decide which Keys suit the instruments and in what speed/loudness/time signiture will suit both the "idea" and the capability of the instruments.

That is SO what I do when I compose!!!

also, heres basically what i "know" about theory (this is all from trial and error, and i have no clue as to the roman numeral chord listy thing...)

1. Harmonic= Most fourths, some fifths, most thirds, all octaves, some sixths.
2. Tempo: 100= slow waltz/dirge 120= pretty much whatever 160= polka/rock/peppy stuff 180= difficult music 240= mostly crap
3. Syncopation= good most of the time
4. Heavy Syncopation= bad most of the time
5. Drums and piano are mostly crap together...
6. Electric guitar sounds like crap with anything but either a rock band or a full orchestra.
7. Brass is mostly crap in slow music with the exclusion of the french horn.
8. NEVER use an accordion unless your song has something to do with pirates or germans.

That's all. I hope that helps someone and doesn't piss anyone off...

Well, what I do is pretty simple, since I don't know too much theory.

I just start playing around with random chords. I usually start to break them, until I get something that sounds catchy, then I work off it!

I've got a question concerning a specific style. My favorite style of music is without a doubt the Spanish guitar style. I don't really know why I like it, but there is definitely something. Recently, I heard a song in which a Spanish guitar riff was used, which renewed my interest in the subject. Now, I would like to compose a song in that style, but I have no idea what I need to do. I don't know what key, what chord progression, what scale, what time, etc. I don't even know what the "standard" Spanish guitar riff sounds like. However, even without any of the above listed knowledge, I would really love to compose a piece in that style. So, my request is this: What exactly makes up the Spanish guitar style?

Any help in this matter would be greatly apprecciated.

Thanks,
AoiRyuuKishi13

I like spanish guitar music too, but I don't have any real suggestions for you. Although here are some minor steps I like to use:

-play it in 2/2
-use a minor key

A good riff is: [fast tempo introduction] G F E [hold] then start the song in A-minor. It's the one used in Vamo Alla' Flamenco from FF9.

^ I was thinking of the same piece as you, and was about to suggest it as well until I read the rest of your post =P

http://www.christianguitar.org/lesson/22 <-- is this what you're looking for? I'm not too familiar with this area . .

That helps a lot. However, I still have a lot to find out before I can compose a piece in this style, like common intervals and other things. I'm still doing lots of research into the subject, but so far I haven't turned up much. If you find anything else, let me know. I really appreciate all the help in this quest for musical knowledge. If I find anything, I'll post it, too. Thanks.

Also, if you know of any songs which are in this style, please let me know what they are so I can examine them.

wow iono wth u guys are talking about... but it sounds pretty smart :D

I don't have much experience in composing, but I do have some stuff to offer. The harmonic minor scale (minor scale with a raised final note) has a very characteristic sound that I find to be very useful for conveying both a sad and mysterious mood due to the gap between the 6th and 7th notes on the scale and the way the 7th leads into the tonic note.

For example, the A harmonic minor scale consists of A B C D E F G#. The gap between F and G# has struck many composers as awkward (resulting in the melodic minor scale with a raised 6th as well), but it can sound very interesting.

I don't recall any explanation of modes, so I'll provide a basic one based on my knowledge so far. Modes are much like scales, though Western classical music doesn't really do much with them the way it does with scales. The 7 modes are actually all variations of the same basic scale, only starting from different points.

Modes are useful because they can give a piece a certain mood. I am told that modal music tends to use the tonic chord heavily and deëmphasize chord progressions. The major and minor scales are actually two of the seven modes. Here are the modes, along with a bit of explanation on them:

Lydian — Considered to have a giddy or dreamy sound. The Simpsons theme song uses a variant of the Lydian mode.
Examples: C lydian - C D E F# G A B C, F lydian - F G A B C D E F

Ionian — The modern major scale, considered to be happy in sound. Examples include the C major scale C D E F G A B C

Mixolydian — Similar to the Ionian scale. It sounds a bit more passionate or bluesy to me.
Examples: C mixolydian - C D E F G A Bb C, G Mixolydian - G A B C D E F G

Dorian — Similar to the minor scale, having a rather melancholy mood.
Examples: C dorian - C D Eb F G A Bb, D dorian - D E F G A B C D

Æolian — The modern major scale. Considered to have a sad, melancholy sound, the sad counterpart to the more upbeat Ionian.
Examples: C æolian - C D Eb F G Ab Bb C, A æolian - A B C D E F G A

Phrygian — Also has a very melancholy mood, probably more so than æolian. Associated with some Spanish and Jewish music.
Examples: C phrygian - C Db Eb F G Ab Bb C, E phrygian - E F G A B C D E

Locrian — Extremely dark and dissonant. This mode is rarely, if ever, used in it's pure form, though I am told it turns up often in heavy metal and that there is a Japanese scale, the Iwato scale, that is similar to it.
Examples: C locrian - C Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C, B locrian - B C D E F G A B

Note that as you go down the list, the modes get progressively darker from the airy Lydian to the nihilistic Locrian, which may put you on anti-depressants if you're not careful^_^ and also lose sharps and gain flats.

There is an easy way to figure out the notes for the mode you want to use. Just add and remove sharps and flats starting at these notes:

Add sharps for: F C G D A E B (Father Charles Goes Down And Ends Battle)
Add flats for: B E A D G C F (Battle Ends And Down Goes Charles's Father)

In other words, if you have three flats, you add them at B, E, and A, while if you have two sharps, you would add them at F and C. If there is an accidental on the scale already, the added sharp or flat cancels it out. Note that the sharp/flat adding thing also works with the circle of fifths.

Another good nmemonic for memorizing and translating any key into the Greek modes that I found on a website is this phrase:

I (Ionian)
Don't (Dorian)
Play (Phrygian)
Loud (Lydian)
Music (Mixolydian)
After (Aeonian)
Lectures (Locrian)

Seven words for the seven modes. If you take any key and simply start the key off on a particular scale degree, while keeping the key signature, then you'll have that mode.

For example, the easiest mode to identify is D Dorian (D Minor scale with no Bb). But, if you have the key signature of C Major (no flats or sharps), if you want to go to Dorian, count the phrase on your fingers: "I Don't". One, two. That means you start on the second scale degree of C Major (D), playing the same key signature, and, now you're in D Dorian. ^_^ Want E Phrygian? Start on C Major again, and say "I Don't Play". That's three. So, you now start on the third scale degree of C Major (E) while playing the same key signature. And, so on.

This is helpful for modes that are hard to remember, which need you to sharp or flat like four notes or whatever. Want E Dorian? Simply play the D Minor scale starting and ending on E (second scale degree). Want A Lydian? Simply play the E Minor scale starting on A (fourth scale degree). And so on. It's somewhat indirect but fail-safe. ^_^

Make sure you always start with a Major key, too. The major key is Ionian, so you gotta start counting from that.

Anyone have any good suggestions or tutorials on melodic development? Like what are some common and not so common ways to develop melodies and themes? It certainly would be helpful.

Can anyone tell me the basic chords and their structures, or direct me to a site that does so? EG. major chords and seventh chords whatever.

Gnomish posted a pretty good site for beginning theory a while ago: http://www.musictheory.net

Recently, I had my choir teacher listen to my newest composition, and she said something about making sure the measures had proper symmetry where the piece needed it. I don't really know anything about musical symmetry, so can someone assist?

its a way to make a song sound less random.

if you have four bars and then a repeat then over to refrain four bars, thats more symmetric than having four bars then repeat then over to THREE bars refrain....

another way of putting it is that you should stick with the same measures throughout the song to make it symmetric, its all maths. if have an even number of bars like the popular 4 bar strukture then if you insert an uneven set of bars in the song it looses its symmetry, unless you make up for it somewhere else in the song...

if you make a piece symmetric it sounds less random...
I hope that was what your teacher was talking about

its hard to explain with words but I hope you get the gist of it.:P

Okay, but is it necessarily bad to have it be asymmetrical?

Gnomish posted a pretty good site for beginning theory a while ago: http://www.musictheory.net
THanks!

Okay, but is it necessarily bad to have it be asymmetrical?

NO!!! It all boils down to what you want to say with the song...
if you want the song to have a dissorganised or psychotic feel for exmple, it fits perfectly. perhaps you want it to sound "wrong".
I have to add that there are other ways to achieve this, the use of odd timesignatures such as 5/4 is one.


symmetry often sounds "better"

Hmmm...well I did use a couple measures with 5/4, but I'm not sure if that's what she was talking about. Would you mind looking at the song and helping me?

woops didnt notice that you posted this message until now... if you are still having problems post an updated midi and I could have a look at it.

Okay, I have a question about elegies and requiems. Is there a particular stye for each of these two different things? I've really become quite interested in elegies and requiems. I'm thinking about composing one, but I want to know if there are specific patterns and stuff for them. From what I know right now, both elegies and requiems are songs which honor the dead. I think that requiems are longer (not sure, just a guess...). Any information on styles, rythms, chords, time sigs, differences between the two, etc. would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
AoiRyuuKishi13

Yes, both honour the dead, but the requiem is a mass for the dead. Meaning, it is a collection of songs that you would sing during a mass, such as the intro, kyrie eleison (Lord have mercy), etc. So essentially, a requiem has movements, and it is usually meant for an orchestra.

~~

Now for a quick tutorial: Pick any random note and practice coming up with chords for it. It'll help you with chord progression.

If I pick F, I can say . .
1) FAC (F major chord) . . the F major chord can either be the tonic (I), the subdominant (IV) for the C major scale, or the dominant (V) for the Bb major scale, etc.
2) FAbC (F minor chord)
3) FGBC (G dominant 7 chord in 3rd position)
4) FAbCbEbb (F diminished 7)
5) FAbCbEb (F half-diminished 7)
6) etc.

So practice doing that. It'll help for when you write a song, and you have this bassline but you don't want to repeat a chord that you've previously used.

Edit: I forgot to add another point! First, write out a melody and come up with some chords. Next, keep the same melody but practice coming up with different chords.

It'd be nice if people post their examples - I think I'll try doing some just for the heck of it ;).

So al for requiems, the movement is the change chords, and there should be a dominant that stays the same. Your example was F so I'm I right?

Eh? No, I'm talking about two completely different things.

Here's an example of requiem movements: introit, kyrie eleison, dies irae, tuba mirum, rex tremendae, etc. (from Mozart)

That 'F' example is unrelated, and it was meant to help learn about chord changes. Just see how many chords you can come up with that have F as its bass. I don't know what you mean by a dominant that stays the same.

You forgot my FAVORITE movement: PIE JESU. :drool:

I need to learn my scales.I just call them things like sad one with 5b notes. So can anyone explain them..?

Oh na ddoes anyone know how to compose a rock song, sort of like Linkin Park?:heh:

Oh na ddoes anyone know how to compose a rock song, sort of like Linkin Park?

Easy. Take three chords and repeat them endlessly, add some deep or rebellious sounding lyrics and a drum machine rhythm and you're done. Actually, I'm joking, but if you ask me, rock, at least modern rock, is highly overrated.

@yousee : Don't even ask about what scales exactly are. Trust me.

EDIT : Coming up for lyrics on a 'modern' piano + vocal piece of mine. Do you just write lyrics on what it tells you, like I know some words to use and not to use at the end of "phrases" of the song-just wondering if there is any code. Doubt there is though.

I've studied some singing/lyric theory. It's very simple, you just make up some text, if you have like 4 sentences, the 2nd and the 4th should rhyme, or the 1st and 3rd + the 2nd and 4th.
Also you could make like sentence one: Melody A, Sentence two: Melody B
Sentence 3: Melody C, Sentence 4: Melody B' (should rhyme on Sentence two), easy as that.

Ok, I see what you mean.

Mainly it's a little rondo but the end is different.

A - B - A - C - A - B - C - A (Or chort ending with varied A)

So Mainly I'd have "13 Lines of Phrases"

And lasts about 5 mins. long

But Every "A" ('cept the last) repeats, so I am going to have different lyrics for that time everytime it repeats.

I also have the part where the main title is said ("Why Can't You") at the end of C, instead of the main theme of B. Not like it matters though.

Thanks PFK, simple answer I'd never find out hehe.

No problem :D
by the way, the A parts don't have to be have the same lyrics to make it a good song. You could use like the A part as just, well... uhm... something. The B part the pre-chorus, the C parts the Chorus, if you do it like that, I'd recommend using different lyrics for every A part, using Slightly different lyrics for the B parts, and the same thing for every C part.
Post it when you're done :D
PS if I use those letters you have (A B A C A B C A)as chords, but the B as Bb, then I get some nice chords for some kind of a 'Battle Theme' for like a video game, guess I'm going to try it :D

*bump*

Uh, this thread is stickied. You don't need to bump it.

So, does anyone know any good resources on orchestration, like for symphony orchestras?

http://www.musique.umontreal.ca:16080/personnel/Belkin/bk.o/index.html

Easy. Take three chords and repeat them endlessly, add some deep or rebellious sounding lyrics and a drum machine rhythm and you're done. Actually, I'm joking, but if you ask me, rock, at least modern rock, is highly overrated.

@yousee - he's right really. Status quo used only three chords in all their music which pissed off a lot of people.

Easy. Take three chords and repeat them endlessly, add some deep or rebellious sounding lyrics and a drum machine rhythm and you're done. Actually, I'm joking, but if you ask me, rock, at least modern rock, is highly overrated.

No... That's called Green Day... x_x Listen to stuff like Metallica and it's a completely different. Then again, "...modern rock, is highly overrated..." pretty much covers that, eh? :heh:

@yousee: For rock songs, though, I'd suggest to always have at least two guitars, at least one drum set (unless if it's an acoustic song; you might not want drums with some of those), and at least try to put in a bass. You can ocassionally add maybe keyboards or strings or something. *shrug* The actual song... well, just put the tune in your head into notes. And remember to never settle for anything less than what you invisioned for a rock song. ;)

@yousee - he's right really. Status quo used only three chords in all their music which pissed off a lot of people.

Well, as you can guess from my signature, I really don't care for popular music. I'll save the rant for another day, though (but it's coming soon...)


http://www.musique.umontreal.ca:1608...k.o/index.html

Thanks, Dawnstorm.

Popular music often does suck. But that doesn't stop it from appealing to some people because of the simplicity of it. Sometimes, you just don't really want to have to think about the music.

I dont really like modern music. I just like linkin park because of the lyrics. But thanks for the advice.

*first post*
Heh. I just found this forum today. There are a few good posts. I always love music theory. So I thought I'd drop a few things here and there.

So far, there have been lots of classical based music theories presented. Things I liked seeing was theories on candence, reading of the figured bass notations, melody writings, types of chords, etc...

This one comes from more of modern music style, more notably from Jazz stuff, although the underlying theory from the classical style is very useful. And this probably makes the most sense if you can experiment with this on a piano or something.

Let me start with a sample of some chords. On the top, play a F major chord. On the bottom, play a G. How would you notate such chord? F over G (F/G)? Yeah, that's not bad.

Assume this piece appeared in a piece that's in C major. Follow this chord with the regular V-I cadence. Now we have F/G-G-C progression, right?

I find that a bit to plain. I don't look at that F chord as F chord. You can see that as G sus 9. C is working for the classic 4-3 suspension. F is the 7th of G, and A is 9th. Sure, we're missing the 5th of the chord, D. But who cares? It sounds pretty open, and it still sounds nice. And it's a heck of an easy way to play an extended chord - in this case, it's even suspended.



While we're on the subject of stacked chord, let me show you another neat one. In the last example of Vsus9-V-I, can we do something about that plain I? Sure. One way is to use G/C. After reading that previous post, I'm sure many of you can figure out this trick easily - yes, this is Cmaj9. Such chord may not work well in the classical style composition. But in Jazz/pop style, such chord works really nicely, even as the last chord of a piece.

So, a quick review -
subdominant chord over dominant bass = Dominant 9th chord with suspended 4th,
dominant chord over tonic bass = tonic major 9th chord.

Welcome to the easy introduction to the extended chords =)

I changed the name of the title to "Composing General Chat! (yes, with an exclamation point). So now it serves as a chatbox for composing in all its aspects.

Ah! I thought there was a whole thread I had missed for 9 pages! That was a shock.

Whatever happened to that chain composition Dawnstorm started? That was fun. Did people lose interest? How about starting it again?

Finally, a composing general chat! been long enough!
ok, for all new composers who wonder why we say the harmony sounds off, read this: http://cnx.org/content/m11953/latest/
its a summary of consonance and dissonance..its helps with making better harmonies. basic music theory! you got to love it :P !

I have a question. I want to know if I actually fooled anyone (since I wouldn't necessarily consider myself a newb), or if my compositions sound like I don't know half of the stuff in this thread.

I don't know. Your stuff sounds like you know what you're doing.

I don't know (and really don't care) what the topic of the page/s is,

but does anyone know the band 'Iron Maiden' is composed with classical form?

Cool hey? (Going to do some transcriptions of their songs for piano. Same with Pearl Jam. LOOK OUT SOON ^_^ )

Hey people,

I have a little orchestration/counterpoint type of question. :\ I have been listening to some 'atmospheric' (more post-romantic/impressionistic kind of style) music and I am very interested with using ornamental triplet runs (or something like that...) under a melody/motif, but every time I try to do it, it seem to 'clash' into one thing or another, I understand that I need to use a 'hollow'/'emptier' sounding instrument, but it still clashes with the bass line or melody line... Any ideas?:\ Thanks.

An ornamental triplet run? So you basically want to arpeggiate a harmony? I'd say... just used notes that apply to the scale you're using. I don't really know if I understand your question correctly. Can you give us a sample?

Well, from what I hear it doesn't necessarily have to be the arppegiated chord... Well an example would be Ayakashi no Izanai from the xxxHOLiC soundtrack, where the clarinet does this triplet thing in between the melody and bass line... If you need an MP3 or something, PM or ask me somehow... :/

I don't know (and really don't care) what the topic of the page/s is,

but does anyone know the band 'Iron Maiden' is composed with classical form?

Cool hey? (Going to do some transcriptions of their songs for piano. Same with Pearl Jam. LOOK OUT SOON ^_^ )

Yes! They're absolutely kick-ass! Usually, you'd call their style power metal. ;) I love "Fear of the Dark," especially. They mix classical with punk and metal elements in that song, and it blends in nicely together. ^.^

Eddy, I compose all of my pieces bit by bit, and I seem to do fine. :X

Eddy, I compose all of my pieces bit by bit, and I seem to do fine. :X

I think Schoenberg was refering to professional composers like Beethoven or Bach. Still, there are many musical forms that don't really lend themselves to spontaneous vision, like rhapsodies and fantasias, which don't really have set forms. Conspicuously, Schoenberg seems to have forgotten to cover these pieces in his book on composition....

Schoenberg's ideas on that are kind of crazy. I like Copland's approach where he gives (I think) three different common ways a composer composes. I think he says that they either imagine the accompaniment, the melody, or it all comes at once.

I would agree with Copland

I'm not sure I want to agree with Copland. I mean, none of his pieces that I've listened to have I liked very much. If that's his philosophy, and those are the results, then...

..then maybe you don't like that style. American Purity.

How about we just keep to our own style and approach? =)

Hah. Yea that works for me-and us probably. :heh:

Hey, I found a really good site on orchestration. It's an adaptation of Rimsky-Korsakov's book on orchestration. It's not entirely complete, but it's got a lot of good stuff already.

http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=77

Hey, I found a really good site on orchestration. It's an adaptation of Rimsky-Korsakov's book on orchestration. It's not entirely complete, but it's got a lot of good stuff already.

http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=77


Ah yes... The GPO forums' free tutorial... But I find the book's information a little too old, partially because this book was written almost a hundred years ago... Now that instruments have evolved into a much more developed state, with many new functions, extensions and etc... I think if you're serious about orchestration, get orchestration books like Orchestration by Piston, or The Study of Orchestration by Adler (really really good reference ;) ) or Forsyth's Orchestration (I forgot what the title was... but I think I got the author's name right:think: ). Also, if you're interested in late-romantic/early-impressionistic orchestration, looking at Rimsky-Korsakov would definately be a wonderful choice, but don't forget that in modern days, our instruments can do slightly more that now! :P

@_@ I'm currently working on 4 completely different compositions simultaneously. Haha, it's fun yet so friggin time consuming.

ACK! I know how you feel. I'm working on the orchestrated on that I have posted on my thread as well as the elemental suite I'm doing with Maestrosetti as well as editing and re-editing Autumn (hopefully I'm about done with that, though).

XD Try doing a concerto, so much to think about... It's basically like a bunch of songs and you'll need to think about motives, repeating movements, orchestration, counterpoint, and most of all, THE MELODY *stuck on that* what to do and not do and what not... @_@ So confusing...

Yeah, I think I will stay away from concertos until I actually have some musical training. I'm not very good at form, or really most theory.

XD Form isn't the huge huge deal, it's just the solo instrument, style, counterpoint and all that... But yeah... *Goes back to study concerti (concertos)*

Well, whatever it is, I probably suck at it. DX. Oh well, I'll have to figure that stuff out someday. I really want to figure out a way to do movie music for a living when I get older. Truthfully I don't really want to bother with VG music.

Well Death, the golden age of VG music is now. In 10 years or so it will be synonymous to film music I think. Sony keeps releasing stupid 'music' software which generates 80% finished music, which is making its way into movies. A director's dream, to get rid of the composer. I, too, however wish to continue on a similiar path as you mentioned.

Hmmm...I haven't heard of that. Doesn't that really take all the heart out of the music, though? I mean doesn't it have to be personal? I don't think a computer will ever be able to do that.

To average people, I don't think they'll care about who composed the music, since it's just music... Second of all, people don't care about 'real music' no more... As long as it's fitting and corny and what not enough to fit stuff, they put it on... :/ At least that's my theory...

If it follows a program, won't all the music end up being very similar to each other?

Hmm, reminds me of a novel I'm working on about a future society where people look to technocratic means to solve social problems, but life ends up rather clinical and dull as a result. One aspect I thought of was that all music is computer generated rather than composed. Personally, I think we're headed in that direction already. The modern music industry has already embraced drum machines and perhaps guitar and singer machines are next.

Hmm, reminds me of a novel I'm working on about a future society where people look to technocratic means to solve social problems, but life ends up rather clinical and dull as a result. One aspect I thought of was that all music is computer generated rather than composed. Personally, I think we're headed in that direction already. The modern music industry has already embraced drum machines and perhaps guitar and singer machines are next.


Not to mention those fun 'loops' stuff you can find in those fun programs... x_x

VG music has always been under-appreciated and always will be. But I don't care. It's one of my favorite genres and incredibly fun to do. I'm going to do everything in my power to make it a full time career for me.

Yeah, I don't mean I don't like VG music, I just don't think it's for me.

Yeah, I know what you mean. That's just the kind of musical career I'm interested in. It's one of the only styles I can compose in, too.

@Eddy - percussion are meant to be the easiest type of instrument to play, followed by brass, woodwind, then strings as the hardest. That's why it can be replaced by drum machines. It doesn't sound as good as the original though in certain types of music. It works for jungle and trance but not for rock. It might all be killed off though once the world realises we can't sustain our electrical needs forever without renewable energy.

@an-kun: The average person won't tell the difference of a real string performance and a computer generated one. (Assuming the computer one is professionaly made)

@deathraider: Yeah, actually that Sony program can do that. It was announced a few months ago and is posted on every big music/composing forum =P

Also, I don't think game music will die, I just said that it will blend in with film music. You see, in the 80-90s game music was very important for a game to convey feelings and mood/atmosphere. Today we have über graphics and good voice/sound-effects so that isn't necessary anymore. A game can be perfectly fine without music nowadays.

It must have sucked composing for old consoles like the NES. I've got a program that makes NSF files and boy, are options limited when it comes to those. I'm just glad that technology has improved so much over the years that even average joes like us can emulate real instruments.

I admire the skills of video game composers back then. They still produced good music despite their restrictions and limitations. Case in point, Koji Kondo and Super Mario music.

How about Nobuo's opera scene in FFVI? 16-bit sound and you can feel the whole show...

Koji Kondo did some Legend of Zelda, too. BTW Noir 7, I was saying I don't think computers can put emotion in the the music, not that I don't think they can manufacture it.

How does one notate cymbal swells?

Notating drum patterns suck ;__; Or at least it does for me cos I don't know how to do it properly :P

How does one notate cymbal swells?


What do you mean by cymbal swell? Do you mean like a cymbal roll?

I suppose so. What I mean is hitting a suspended cymbal repeatedly to make a swelling sound. Would you just notate that the same way you would a snare or timpani roll?

Ah... I get what you mean now... To notate that, you notate it as a normal cymbal roll, except above the note, write 'soft stick' or 'soft stick cymbal roll' to tell the percussionist to change the sticks. ;)

Thank you muchly, good sir.

So, speaking of drums . . let's say I write a song for voice, piano, and strings. Then I record it and have it saved on my computer as mp3. Now let's say I'd like to add a beat to it afterwards. Are there any programs that can do this for me? Some kind of pre-programmed beat that I can adjust according to what my piece demands? Oh, and please keep in mind that I know nothing about percussion, so my best-case scenario would to have somebody do all the work for me =)

Yeah it's possible, but I've never tried it. Perhaps if I get some drum samples, I can do it for you.

Thanks! Take your time, because I won't be working on that project for at least a few months =P

For those of you looking to start a death metal band, try here...

http://homestarrunner.com/sbemail141.html

:lol:

K, that was random, but that episode is a good one. I wish sb would answer one of MY emails, sometime...

Hm... I have a little question about purchasing programs in the future... Now that I have a decent notation program (Sibelius 3), 2 sets of samples (GPO and Kontakt 2), should I buy a sequencer like Sonar Home Studio or something to use my samples better (as programming the dynamics and all that on Sibelius is quite painful)? Or should I get another set of samples (if I do get samples, should I get Bandstand or Dimension Pro or something)? :/

Well, are you satisfied with what you have now? I really only recommend something like Sonar if you're serious going to be getting into electronic music. (And I mean that literally, not as some sort of weird genre).

Well, are you satisfied with what you have now? I really only recommend something like Sonar if you're serious going to be getting into electronic music. (And I mean that literally, not as some sort of weird genre).

I should be satisfied :rolleyes:, but yeah, everytime I hear a new piece or read about this or that instrument, I'll start to go all "ooooooooh, I wanna compose this style" and stuff like that, so yeah, I want a bigger variety. :heh: Yeah, thanks maybe Sonar Home Studio is a good idea for Christmas or my next birthday... Although, Sonar doesn't have a variety of samples... (I was kind of struggling between having more 'realistic' sounds or having a programming program...) ;) Thanks.

SirDotdot, if you're very serious about your orchestration/composing then get software from http://www.soundsonline.com/EWQL-Symphonic-Orchestra-Gold-Edition-pr-EW-160.html

I have the Gold version, and I'm in love with it ^_^ You can listen to some samples on the 'audio demo' page to get a clue of the result.

I looked at that stuff before, but was quickly scared away by the price tag. x_x I guess if you're willing to pay the money...

I want that Choirs package!

Yeah me too, you can actually build words and sentences with that thing, which the choir will sing X_X

XD I wish I could get that... yeah, I've seen this before... I was looking at Symphonic Choir and RA but when I looked at the price tag... I sorta ran away... :heh:

*Downloaded Gold very, vewy, veeeewy illegally*


:ph34r:

*will probably buy it next year* :ph34r:

Good lord.

The ultimate orchestrating machine (Out-Of-Date in like 2 years :heh: Just watch...)

And Noir.. I think I'm gonna have to kick you! Lol, all that money, and 15gb lol.

What a program.

Well for a poor student like myself I won't tolerate a simple thing such as money come in between me and my music <_<

Well, there's an *almost* free VST plugin called Clone Ensemble (www.cloneensemble.com) in which you can duplicate your voice, change the sex, age of the voices, etc. Works rather well if you have a program that supports it.

Good lord.

The ultimate orchestrating machine (Out-Of-Date in like 2 years :heh: Just watch...)

And Noir.. I think I'm gonna have to kick you! Lol, all that money, and 15gb lol.

What a program.

Heh, I don't think Noir is THAT bad. :shifty: I mean, he could've illegally downloaded Symphonic Orchestra Platinum Edition XP (that one costs like $5000) with like who-knows-how-many-gigs of samples.

And as for Maestrosetti's little find... I don't know, all these voice manipulating programs disappoint me... :\ *Tries anyway* XD

Ah no, I'm not looking down at Noir at all-Why won't I buy the full NoteWorthy program? Oh yea, because I don't think it's worth the 60.00 or whatever it is now. True, money shouldn't separate anyone from making, or playing music. <_<

Ah no, I'm not looking down at Noir at all-Why won't I buy the full NoteWorthy program? Oh yea, because I don't think it's worth the 60.00 or whatever it is now. True, money shouldn't separate anyone from making, or playing music. <_<

Lol, you both got a point there, but if I was to give an opinion, I'd say if you buy your own program, and you accomplish a piece, you'll feel much prouder if you pirated the program. But yeah, computer and all these are luxuries, back then, Beethoven didn't even have like staff paper generators... So yeah, we all should feel lucky! XD

*The only reason I held back from NOT being wished to be born in those times* :sweat:

(Other than the fact, getting your music published was A LOT easier back then than it is now.)

Ah no, I'm not looking down at Noir at all-Why won't I buy the full NoteWorthy program? Oh yea, because I don't think it's worth the 60.00 or whatever it is now. True, money shouldn't separate anyone from making, or playing music. <_<

Strongly agree, the registered version of Noteworthy doesn't exactly give you much more than what you already have with the evaluation. At least, it didn't look like it did when I read it. If it said something like, "Allows to save in mp3 format with better realistic instrumental sounds," then I wouldn't give a second's thought before deciding to buy it haha!

I should get someone to get a crack for me. :heh:

Or just try to fine one. :\

Found something that might interest you folks:

http://www.notionmusic.com/win/

;)

To comment on the closed thread: No, I'm not selling it.

;) ;)

That's neat. Would I do it-no. I don't think music compositions really fit into competitions, but in perspective (sure I'll enter Youth Compositions sometime) Music is judged without 'placements' ^_^

Anyone know free samples for dark atmosphere pads? I'm not really looking for instruments, but I need atmospheric effects such as horror, suspense and such...

Same here, looking into some ambient music at the moment other than Technical Studies. (Making music for a video game)

Heh, I'd suggest some of those atmosphere pads from Kontakt 2, but I don't think you'll want an entire $200+ sampler for just a few samples. :heh: I suggest you guys looking at some samples from soundsonline and places similar to that. ;) Good luck.

Any soundfonts (.sf2) that I can download free (that work with Finale 2006, and system is the same with Finale, example: Patch 1- Piano..... etc...)?

http://forums.ichigos.com/showthread.php?t=6506

;)

@Noir7 and Mazeppa: Can you guys utilize WAV's in any way? If so, I can hook you up.

I don't use soundfonts. I'll just see if I can find some stuff out of soundsonline I guess.

I don't use soundfonts. I'll just see if I can find some stuff out of soundsonline I guess.

I posted/attached a bunch of links and places where you can get samples and all that, check out the Composition Program Help Thread thing. ;)

Question - What do you guys do when you just desprately want to compose something, but your COMPLETELY stumped?

I seriously want to compose a prelude (Debussy-Styled actually) but I've been improvising for the last 2 weeks for about 1 or 2 hours a day, trying to find something buried down.

Seriously, I haven't written anything of my liking in about 3-4 months. I feel all emo. @_@

@ Dot: Thanks, I'll have a look
@ Mazeppa: Writer's block =P We all have it sometimes.

:P Same here, when did I start my concerto...? Two months ago and now I have my Christmas Suite to worry about. What I do is just try to figure something out, and if it's not to my liking I dump it. It's life. ;)

Now that I think about it, that's my attitude on life. Ah shit. :heh:

Anyway, I have been wondering if I should do variations on Pachebel's (sp?) Cannon for quite some time now. Maybe when I figure some good ones out I'll start.

Oh please no, not that piece! =\ So many people have taken a crack at it that your own variations will be lost in the huge musical pile. And I personally feel that the piece is overrated and overdone. I say you make yourself stand out by choosing something else! =D

^What he said. And trust me, after you play/hear/arrange it a few times, you'll get bored of it, a lot, I mean it, because that's what I did. :heh: Now I don't even want to go back to that piece anymore. :\

Eh. Man, at forst I wanted to do variations on the theme of Beethoven's "Rage of the Lost Penny" but mainly the song, Beethoven, variates the theme in it-which suckz0rz!

Yeah, that song's madness, haha. I highly suggest you stay away from the masters and their famous pieces, and instead create variations on your own theme or on a lesser-known theme.

Couldn't agree more. There is an endless pile of mediocre variations on Canon in D and I'm afraid yours would just land on top of that very pile. What Al said was also a good idea; To compose variations on a theme of your own. In your case it wouldn't be too hard to find an appropriate theme since you have a pretty decent repertoire.

Can someone (that has a Finale 2006) create & attach a legato expression for me?...

(Click on the Expression Tool, type in italics: legato, click on "Playback", on type, click "Controller", Type "68" to the right of this, then in the "Set to Value" Box, type "68".)

I don't have Finale (*uses Finale Printmusic*)... and I need this for a composition.

~Thanks

Arg! Why do you have to confuse me with your silly numbers!

I'll do it for you if you post it.

Arg! Why do you have to confuse me with your silly numbers!

I'll do it for you if you post it.

Sorry about all the numerical stuff lately... Here's the image:

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j266/Bbclarinetist/a2608597.jpg
You'll have to Zoom In a lot to see it. (or at least, I think you do). :unsure:

EDIT: Dial-up :bleh: . Right now I don't even know if the whole photo went through.

Question :

When you get Finale, is updating it to like Finale 2007 for free?

I'm just wondering, might be getting Finale for my b-day, and my parents want to know.

I don't think so, you need to pay everytime a new version comes out.

I don't think you pay the full price if you have a previous license, but yeah.. they won't give them out for free =\

It's about a $130 (US) Update...

When I get a job, I'll keep around an extra 130 then for updating, found 2007 on Ebay for like only 200. :shifty:

d-load, d-load, d-load! *hears crowd shouting*

Where can I find a website that shows how to create songs for a concert band?.... I can only find one for orchestra. :think:

Whether it's concert band or orchestra, it's still orchestration, and depending on the style of your piece, just do it the way normal orchestrations for the style. Unless, of course, you don't know the timbres of the instruments.

What he said.

I had to do a band arrangement as well-it's the saem as an orchestra, my style was classical, and it's the same for band! :heh:

EDIT -

Hey, I might be interested in orchestration/concert band/jazz band composing guys, though I have not yet excelled at piano solos or duets for the matter-should I try and go on?
=o!?

3 Questions:

1. I want to write a classical-styled piece (and I've listened to a lot of them) but I still don't (mostly) get the "elements" of this style (I know about melodic chromaticsim (sp?) and the articulation stuff).... What else is there about classical music?....

2. At this website (http://eagle.stillwater.k12.mn.us/~walkm//Composition%20Assignments.htm) (A.K.A. my teacher's website for composition projects :heh: ) It mentions about harmonic and melodic "devices"... I want to start this project ahead of time (because, normally, it takes me a long time to come up with something :heh: ), so obviously he hasn't said anything about this. What does he mean by harmonic and melodic "devices"?

3. What is a "passing tone" and a "neighboring tone"?

1. If you've listen to enough classical music over romantic music, you should get it with no problem. Trust your instincts. And compared to romantic music, classical is more 'straight' forward but more stylistic than Baroque.

2. Harmonic and melodic devices are probably the motives and stuff that your teacher taught you. Wow, you're lucky that you have these classes, unfortunately, I don't... <.<

3. For these passing tone, echapee and neighbour tone stuff, just wikipedia it, cos without visual stuff, it's hard to explain.

3) "Tone" may be replaced by "note".

And if I had my notes with me, I might remember exactly what all those things are :think:

1. I want to write a classical-styled piece (and I've listened to a lot of them) but I still don't (mostly) get the "elements" of this style (I know about melodic chromaticsim (sp?) and the articulation stuff).... What else is there about classical music?....

The key thing to understand about classical music, and one thing that distinguishes it from popular music, is that in most cases, the music itself is the subject of the piece, the term for this being absolute music, which contrasts with vocal (the vast majority of popular music and of some classical) and program music (much of the music from the Romantic era). Emotion, drama, and "narrative" are generated purely through the music and how it evolves without the aid of lyrics.

To really understand the style, try thinking of your piece as a kind of story, with a begining, a climax, and so on. Themes and motifs are like the characters in a story, developing, interacting, and each having a distinct quality or mood, though not necessarily one that must remain constant. Just as a story has a setting and mood, a musical piece as a key and mode. Of course, just as few novels maintain the same mood and location through-out the whole book, few pieces stay in the same key (though in classical music, you are usually supposed to end in the same key you started).

An important part of this process is development, which involves two processes. One is developing a theme out of a motif, a good example of which can be seen in the 1st movement of Beethoven's 5th in which he develops a 4 note motif into a theme. The other involves taking an existing theme and changing things about it or placing it in new contexts, which appears a great deal in sonata "development sections". This includes changing key or mode and adding counterpoint. Keep in mind that even program and vocal music develop themes and motifs heavily to provide a backbone and to convey change and drama.

And another thing: make use of contrasts when possible. Contrasting keys, modes, textures, etc. are your friend here. If you listen to classical pieces, you'll notice that there tend to have a lot of contrasting sections and cover a broader range of moods and qualities in a single piece than is typical of, say, rock. Often, for example, a dramatic or bombastic passage will be followed by a lighter passage. Rarely will a piece maintain the same character all the way through without at least some contrasting section (but it does happen in shorter pieces like preludes and notably in the first movement of Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata.


2. At this website (A.K.A. my teacher's website for composition projects ) It mentions about harmonic and melodic "devices"... I want to start this project ahead of time (because, normally, it takes me a long time to come up with something ), so obviously he hasn't said anything about this. What does he mean by harmonic and melodic "devices"?

If I had to guess, the site is refering to various chords and chord progressions, such as the use of the neapolitan 6th or the 2nd inversion tonic chord. A melodic device sounds like an embellishment or non-chord tone.


3. What is a "passing tone" and a "neighboring tone"?

Both are what are called non-chord tones, which are notes in the melody that aren't in the current harmony, generally acting as a momentary dissonance and resolving to a chord tone. Specifically, a passing tone is a note that occurs between two notes two steps apart. Over a C major chord, the D in a C-D-E would be a passing tone. A neighboring tone moves a step away from a chord tone and then returns. The D in E-D-E would be a neighboring tone.

If you're trying to write some classical music, this is what I would do: listen to Mozart's piano concertos. His piano concertos, not piano sonatas, not Beethoven's concertos, Mozart...piano...concertos. See if you can follow along after listening for a while. If you can "feel" that the piece follows the style of Mozart, then you pretty much have nice classical style down.

I'm completely serious! Give it a try. I picked the piano concertos specifically because they're very easily identifiable. And the mood will help you compose as well.

I beg to differ, if you want good structure (Classical) listen to any of Beethoven's Sonatas.

Perfect examples of sonata structure, and how he makes it so efforless to work in those themes.

Let's see :think:
I've listened (not played) to:

Mozart's "Alla Turca", "Sonata in F- 3rd Movement"... that's all of Mozart's piano stuff I've heard...

Beethoven- "Sonata in F Minor- 3rd Movement", "Pathétique Sonata" (all 3 movements), "Sonata 12 Op.26: 3rd Movement", "Moonlight Sonata" (all 3)

Chopin- "Op. 10, No. 01- Etude in C", "Black Note Study", "Revolutionary Study in C Minor", "Op. 25, No. 02- Etude in F Minor", "Op. 53- Polonaise", " Fantasy Impromptu".

Basically, I need an example of a Classical Piece that features a Classical Era Orchestra (Symphonies, concertos) (not Beethoven's Symphony #5) (other than Egmont Overture). I've only heard solo piano pieces, and a few woodwind pieces. If anyone can find a recording of one (please, no MIDIs) I'd appreciate it.

Basically, I need an example of a Classical Piece that features a Classical Era Orchestra (Symphonies, concertos) (not Beethoven's Symphony #5) (other than Egmont Overture). I've only heard solo piano pieces, and a few woodwind pieces. If anyone can find a recording of one (please, no MIDIs) I'd appreciate it.

Well, for that, I would suggest Mozart's Eine Kleine Nachtmusik or his 40th symphony, both popular pieces that you shouldn't have any trouble getting a hold of and both illustrating some of the more conspicuous elements of classicalism effectively (sonata form, for example).

I beg to differ, if you want good structure (Classical) listen to any of Beethoven's Sonatas.

Beethoven sat right between the classical and romantic periods (he is universally regarded as the definitive transitional figure between the two periods, though he's still technically a classical composer based completely on the time period, not his actual works). His first few opus numbers followed the classical structure pretty well, but one of the defining features of beethoven was that he did not maintain the textures and characteristics of the classical period. I could provide examples of this is requested.

Yes, the technical structure did remain for some of his later works, but they distinctively embody more romanticism than did the earlier classical composers like mozart and haydn. Where in their works can you find something as extravagant as beethoven's op.13 sonata? you can't. because beethoven innovated upon classical music for a very large portion of his repetoire -- he explored further into romanticism, and that's why if you are looking for something purely classical, much of beethoven is not the best choice.

My point is, Beethoven was too avant-garde for his time to be a good example for classical works.

I completely agree with you (hofodomo01), but I was too lazy to think up an argument, haha. Go for Mozart or Haydn instead.

Odd, because I can really disect the parts between the forms of the pieces that I listen too--sounds really classical, more than Chopin's style of writing sonatas (the form exepcially).

Please, I would want more examples--audio of what you'd talk about--so I can contemplate what you are saying.

And yes, I know Beethoven wasn't born in the early classical, but the medium and later classical eras, but not in the middle of the Classical and Romantic Eras--timelines, and I state, doesn't show that he was composing in a complete influnced style of romanticism like Liszt and Chopin for example.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_van_Beethoven <-- has audio, and has a bit more explanation about his music

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfgang_Amadeus_Mozart <-- how Mozart influenced Beethoven

Mazeppa, which Beethoven sonatas in particular are you referring to?

Waldstien, Pathetique (I'm stydying that obviously I know what I mean), Les Adieux.

Many and almost all of his sonatas have the same form--hell even the Sonata a quasi (Moonlight) has the structure in it too.

Anyway, I back my statement, his structure is all orthodox.. most of the time; 90% , yes.

:) My teacher is letting me compose (not arrange) a Concert Band piece for the band (before the year ends- June 2007)...

I need help with chording (with different instruments), doubling, and percussion (how to use percussion in a piece).

I don't know if this will help, but here's the instruments in the SJHS (Stillwater Junior High School) band:

Flute
Clarinet
Alto Sax.
Trumpet
Trombone
Tuba
Percussion (bells, vibraphone, all latin percussion, etc...).


and I also need to learn how to write a "Theme and Variations" piece... not like Mozart, though... Variations, but it actually goes with the actual piece.

Thanks for the help in advance :).

You can't really get any help unless you show us the score or something.

Edit: *Randomly remembers band's orchestration structure from last year* My first piece of orchestration advice for you for composing for band is that you should think that there are four groups of instruments (think of first as the soprano, the second as alto/mezzo soprano depending on the situation, third as tenor/bass and fourth group is for special effects), the first group being Flute 1 and 2 + Clarinet 1, the second group being trumpet 1 and 2 + clarinet 2, and altos 1, third group being alto 2 (one octave higher than trombone), trombones, and tuba (one octave lower than trombone), and fourth being percussions. Since band music differs from orchestral music, you should study some American music or band arrangements of other pieces. Too bad you lack tenor sax, because you lack alto/tenor middleground instruments, although I believe alto saxes and clarinet 2 would be sufficient enough for now.

Wow... thanks for the grouping :) . I wonder (in our band) why Flute is always in one part, and not split (Flute 1 & 2). :think:

I just studied more on trumpet doubling, so I have that down.. now to think of a melody :heh: .

(I already did know how parts for each instrument were written).

@ Mazeppa: Okay, first movement Pathetique is more romantic than classical (and for the record, I love the first two movements, I just needed to prove my point!). His slow intro is fine, nothing non-classical about that. But he reuses it for his developmental section. 1) That's not common, as classical composers use new material, or more commonly, build from the expositional material, 2) It is more common to maintain the tempo all the way through, from the exposition to the developmental to the recapitulation. Obviously there is a marked difference with the beginning tempo of the developmental, before it returns to the original speed and ultimately returning to the first theme. And finally, Beethoven again uses the slow intro material in his coda. Again, not common for a classical piece.

Edit: Otherwise, it follows sonata format well. I can't speak for the harmonies/texture/ideas though!

mazeppa, I think you're absolutely right about the fact that Beethoven follows the structure of the classical sonata-allegro format most of his earlier and middle-period works. (but then again, even avant-garde 20th century artists may follow such a format).

Here are 3 example pieces (i'm sure you have the pathetique, but just so if other wan't to listen to it)

Fantasy in C - Haydn (http://www.4shared.com/file/4052181/3528c66/fantasy_in_c.html)
-This is very classical in its character - organized and precise, but doesn't contain a normal structure (since it's a fantasy)

Op.13, no. 8 ("Pathetique" sonata, I) - Beethoven (http://www.4shared.com/file/4052126/67d9f14f/piano_sonata_in_c_-_i.html)
-Now, while this doesn't quite go full blown "large-banging-chords" romantic, it still loosely contains the standard "exposition|2nd theme|development|recapitulation|coda maybe cadenza|back to tonic, end" route of the classical sonata. The slow intro chords kinda serve as the expo, but the style isn't commonly found in classical music at all (I mean the heavy emotion and freedom of interpretation)...I believe that it was such a style of playing (the large and loud chords) that gained Beethoven a good deal of attention when he was younger...I guess you can't really pinpoint a line between classical and romantic, but I think once you've performed a large enough collection of styles, you'll just kind of "feel" which pieces are classical and which are not.
Completely random fact: there's a CG animated version of Starship Troopers, and the opening theme is a techno remix of this piece :)

Op. 2, no. 3 (1st movement) - Beethoven (http://www.4shared.com/file/4052043/402bc871/piano_sonata_no3_in_c_-_i.html)
-One of Beethoven's earlier works, so it is both classical in structure and texture (though you can still hear some of Beethoven's "transitional" characteristcs...like at the coda @ 6:15). But the structure of this follows the sonata form almost to the letter. The first measure was a bizzatch to play well :P

As a side note, I think that the moonlight sonata is another one of Beethoven's romantic inventions...first of all, it's rare for a classical sonata not to be in the allegro tempo range (though it happens occasionally), but the title even has the words 'fantasia' under it, meaning it's a free-form piece going according to the composer's whims...
The 2nd movement is pretty nice, and would be the closest thing to classical in that entire piece.
The 3rd movement...personally I think if you're playing this piece, and the piano is still intact after you're done, you're not doing something right (exaggeration, but you get my point). Too much emotional material in the entire movement to be considered mainly classical.

@clarinetist: theme and variation? yay! First, just think of a simple theme (no more than 8 or 16 measures). Now, you can either:
-Take the main melody and decorate it...ie hide it under runs, or change the key, change the phrasing, etc
-Or base your variations on the chord progressions (like Bach's Goldberg Variations)..i.e. just keep the same chord progressions, and build different melodies around that.
-Or since it's a band, so a slow theme, then just make the variations various tempo changes and added rhythms.
I'm not sure if that's what you mean...

You said junior high school? Hmm, I guess only you know what your band is capable of playing, so write accordingly :)

Damn that was a long post...

Or since it's a band, so a slow theme, then just make the variations various tempo changes and added rhythms.
I'm not sure if that's what you mean...

This is EXACTLY what I meant. Now I just have to learn the abilities of the instruments now.... (Flute, Trombone, and Alto Sax left :heh: ).

I'm currently thinking to double:

Flute>Clarinet I> Trumpet
Clarinet II> Alto Sax I
Alto Sax II> Trombone> Tuba

On doubling, what else do I need to know about the notation of the music, other than what's below?

Flute and Clarinet: Flute must be written 8va or the Clarinet will overpower it.
Tuba and Trombone: Tuba must be written 8vb.

I had to arrange that Ship Voyage piece for Middle School band, but we had a pretty good band so I could go just a little over the top than "normal" middle school bands.

clarinetist, what programs are you using to write your music?

Clarinetist, the flute over clarinet placement is fine, but what about the trumpet? If you directly double trumpet with clarinets, it won't turn out nice.

clarinetist, what programs are you using to write your music?

Finale Printmusic :heh: and I might (though I doubt it) consider GarageBand, however that works...


Clarinetist, the flute over clarinet placement is fine, but what about the trumpet? If you directly double trumpet with clarinets, it won't turn out nice.

:think:.... I wonder what to do then.... :heh:.... I'm aiming for a legato tone...

*is stuck on what to do with trumpet* I know that Flute is commonly used with trumpet....